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View Full Version : Mcdonalds protesters pushing for $15 an hour.



rj
08-30-2013, 02:20 AM
For those wanting to engage in this discussion, remember:


NO swearing,
NO attacking other users, attack their argument instead.

Repeat violations will lead to the topic being locked.
Re-read up on the SRL rules here (http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6964&p=67456#post67456).
Original post: http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105645&p=1264494#post1264494


http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/08/29/local-mcdonalds-forced-to-close-amid-protest-over-higher-wages/


In cities across American Mcdonalds workers are protesting for $15 an hour, in some states that is double of their current pay.



I don't think they put much thought into this protest, at-least in terms of making any progress.


EDIT: This thread is supposed to be more or less on the topic of raising minimum wage to $15 an hour, not raising it in general.

Ian
08-30-2013, 02:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kltKmJhUgLY

Sin
08-30-2013, 03:32 AM
>Detroit.

YoHoJo
08-30-2013, 04:05 AM
Stupid.
Working fast food is unskilled labor which anyone can do without any education.
They should be getting the minimum wage.

If they want higher wages and protest/strike, then the thousands of other unskilled laborers will gladly just take their place.

Flight
08-30-2013, 06:31 AM
Stupid.
Working fast food is unskilled labor which anyone can do without any education.
They should be getting the minimum wage.

If they want higher wages and protest/strike, then the thousands of other unskilled laborers will gladly just take their place.

That pretty much sums it up; cased closed.

J J
08-30-2013, 11:33 AM
Stupid.
Working fast food is unskilled labor which anyone can do without any education.
They should be getting the minimum wage.

If they want higher wages and protest/strike, then the thousands of other unskilled laborers will gladly just take their place.
Essentialy.. it might come to this ^.

I've done part time work and when I was 16 I was earning 3€/h and at 17 I earned something like 3,50€/h. Apparantly the minimum wages have gone up, you can see them here: http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/minimumloon/vraag-en-antwoord/hoe-hoog-is-het-minimumloon-per-uur.html

But I was doing brainless jobs, I hated it. But my parents wanted me out of the house during summer and I could use the money.

But if some McDonalds employees are going to earn the double.. I would say 7,50$/h is a bit on the lower side for a fully grown person, even for a job like that. But there are plenty of people willing to take in their place.

xtrapsp
08-30-2013, 11:40 AM
Stupid.
Working fast food is unskilled labor which anyone can do without any education.
They should be getting the minimum wage.

If they want higher wages and protest/strike, then the thousands of other unskilled laborers will gladly just take their place.

> Coming from someone who worked at KFC and Maccy D.

It's a horrible job where you are treated like dog poo. The hours are overdone and the workload are stupid.
I for one say, give them a pay rise. At least they're working. Trying to get out there.

Might I also add Yohojo, Working in the fast food industry does not require no education. You of all people should know this. Especially as you constantly ask for help on this matter.
Working at fast food requires on-the-job skills and education like the basic, reading, writing, mathematics etc.

I once met a man in KFC who came in and the conversation went like so:

Man: "Which one of your buckets is cheapest but best for value for a family of 4? 2 little ones, aged 6 and 7 and 2 adults"
Me: "To be honest, it depends on the amount you wish to eat and how much your budget is".
Man: "In that case I'l go for the 14 piece bargain bucket with 2 hotwings"
Me: "I can make that cheaper for you, just by adding the extra hotwing package"
Man: "Thanks, I thought most people who worked in fast food were incompetent with logic"
Me: "Well, Not all of us are made for fast food. Especially during this terrible time with the economy, I go to school 9-5 and work 6-10."
Man: "I work at a school, teaching history, maybe one day you'l be as good as me"
Me: "I am as a good as you, if not better."

^^ He left.

What I'm trying to say is, you can put these people down, you can push them away. But not all of them have the stereotypes you justified above. - Officer Barbrady.

What sickens me is the elitist view a lot of you have. You're mostly all from fairly well off families or have been spoon fed to help you into your education.

I've gone from Crap Grades in school and a terrible job at KFC to Working in IT and earning more than all the people in my school year who did good at their academic studies. At the end of the day these people do have jobs. They don't need ignorant idiots like yourselves putting them down because you go to them for your quick meal and to look down on them.

Grow up. I would expect better from an SRL member, let alone a moderator



IMO my message to these people is stop having kids and buying stuff you can't afford.
Mum/mom can't buy us everything. You haven't even got an idea of what work is.

[XoL]
08-30-2013, 12:54 PM
In the basic scheme of economics raising "all mcdonalds" workers to $15 an hour is just not feasible, and in an economic downfall people will be lining up to take their jobs.

Hazzah
08-30-2013, 03:07 PM
The problem with the minimum wage in the US (Not sure about the rest of the world) is that it has not risen to keep in line with the cost of living. The rich have gotten richer while minimum wage has hardly gone up to keep up with the cost of living. I recently watched a documentary on the subject where it discusses this, but I can't remember the name of it for the life of it haha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth#In_the_United_States

E: I understand we aren't all in the US, but I am sure similar problems can be seen throughout Europe and the like.

E2: The name of the movie was "Park Avenue: Money, Power and the American Dream" and is available on Netflix.

Itankbots
08-30-2013, 03:59 PM
Yeah, min wage in US is pretty bad tbh. Could due with a raise. And its not like people would hoard money, they would spend it. In long run it would be beneficial

grats
08-30-2013, 04:21 PM
Stupid.
Working fast food is unskilled labor which anyone can do without any education.
They should be getting the minimum wage.

If they want higher wages and protest/strike, then the thousands of other unskilled laborers will gladly just take their place.

mcdonalds is hard, very demanding work.. I wouldn't work there for $15 an hour, that's for sure.
no I'm not being sarcastic, it's far harder than most of the stuff I've done for 3 times the price.

Itankbots
08-30-2013, 05:21 PM
I just think its ironic how some of the people on here think that mcdonalds or min wage jobs are for like "lower level" People.

You shouldn't judge a person based on where they work. Maybe its a part time job? Or they ran into health issues (like i did) and needed to pick up a second job to help pay for medicine?

Luckly ive never had to pick up harder working jobs for low pay. But for others atleast they're working instead of collecting welfare or something.

And most those jobs suck too...and hard/bad hours. I doubt any of them WANT to be there. But they do it

Also due to the fact alot of us are Pin/GP/Virtual good sellers....its kind of funny we judge them in a way that you call it "unskilled labor"

Dont really need much of an education to set up bots and farm or sell pins :P

xtrapsp
08-30-2013, 05:31 PM
I just think its ironic how some of the people on here think that mcdonalds or min wage jobs are for like "lower level" People.

You shouldn't judge a person based on where they work. Maybe its a part time job? Or they ran into health issues (like i did) and needed to pick up a second job to help pay for medicine?

Luckly ive never had to pick up harder working jobs for low pay. But for others atleast they're working instead of collecting welfare or something.

And most those jobs suck too...and hard/bad hours. I doubt any of them WANT to be there. But they do it

Also due to the fact alot of us are Pin/GP/Virtual good sellers....its kind of funny we judge them in a way that you call it "unskilled labor"

Dont really need much of an education to set up bots and farm or sell pins :P

For once I agree with one of your posts.

armthehomeless
08-30-2013, 06:25 PM
If you don’t like your job or your pay, shut up and leave. Entrepreneurship is a damn beautiful thing.

Just my 2 cents.

rj
08-30-2013, 07:03 PM
> Coming from someone who worked at KFC and Maccy D.

It's a horrible job where you are treated like dog poo. The hours are overdone and the workload are stupid.
I for one say, give them a pay rise. At least they're working. Trying to get out there.

Might I also add Yohojo, Working in the fast food industry does not require no education. You of all people should know this. Especially as you constantly ask for help on this matter.
Working at fast food requires on-the-job skills and education like the basic, reading, writing, mathematics etc.

I once met a man in KFC who came in and the conversation went like so:

Man: "Which one of your buckets is cheapest but best for value for a family of 4? 2 little ones, aged 6 and 7 and 2 adults"
Me: "To be honest, it depends on the amount you wish to eat and how much your budget is".
Man: "In that case I'l go for the 14 piece bargain bucket with 2 hotwings"
Me: "I can make that cheaper for you, just by adding the extra hotwing package"
Man: "Thanks, I thought most people who worked in fast food were incompetent with logic"
Me: "Well, Not all of us are made for fast food. Especially during this terrible time with the economy, I go to school 9-5 and work 6-10."
Man: "I work at a school, teaching history, maybe one day you'l be as good as me"
Me: "I am as a good as you, if not better."

^^ He left.

What I'm trying to say is, you can put these people down, you can push them away. But not all of them have the stereotypes you justified above. - Officer Barbrady.

What sickens me is the elitist view a lot of you have. You're mostly all from fairly well off families or have been spoon fed to help you into your education.

I've gone from Crap Grades in school and a terrible job at KFC to Working in IT and earning more than all the people in my school year who did good at their academic studies. At the end of the day these people do have jobs. They don't need ignorant idiots like yourselves putting them down because you go to them for your quick meal and to look down on them.

Grow up. I would expect better from an SRL member, let alone a moderator

Mum/mom can't buy us everything. You haven't even got an idea of what work is.

What about the other people earning $15 an hour now? Don't they want a raise now? Simple economics, minimum wage goes to $15 an hour, the cost of products go up (no I'm not saying they would double, but doubling minimum wage would increase food prices by a lot)

So if they raise minimum wage to $15 an hour does that really help everybody? It's just going to cost the price of food products to go up even for the people working minimum wage therefor their back in square 1. And the truth to the fact is, if they want $15 an hour there is CERTAINLY someone who will do it for half the price..

So sure, raise minimum wage, but you won't be helping them any, and then more jobs will be exporting to other countries. Let's face it, for instance why would a company want to hire 500 factory workers and pay them $15 an hour (and soon have to provide health care or opt out and pay a fine) when it's hell of a lot cheaper for a country with a lower minimum wage to do it?

Brandon
08-30-2013, 10:19 PM
What about the other people earning $15 an hour now? Don't they want a raise now? Simple economics, minimum wage goes to $15 an hour, the cost of products go up (no I'm not saying they would double, but doubling minimum wage would increase food prices by a lot)

So if they raise minimum wage to $15 an hour does that really help everybody? It's just going to cost the price of food products to go up even for the people working minimum wage therefor their back in square 1. And the truth to the fact is, if they want $15 an hour there is CERTAINLY someone who will do it for half the price..

So sure, raise minimum wage, but you won't be helping them any, and then more jobs will be exporting to other countries. Let's face it, for instance why would a company want to hire 500 factory workers and pay them $15 an hour (and soon have to provide health care or opt out and pay a fine) when it's hell of a lot cheaper for a country with a lower minimum wage to do it?

Ever hear of the saying: Everyone wants someone experienced, but no one wants to give experience.. This is currently what's happening.. If everyone at McDonalds were to quit, who'd train the new guys?


Well here's some "McFood" for thought and why this will never be the case.

1. I started out working in a grocery for 8.00 an hour and trust me, it was not the best thing being a teenage butcher and all the "other" tasks that come along with it for 8.00 an hour! Also note that what some managers used to do was send me on break or clock me out at the hr.45 mark so they won't have to pay the full hour or overtime if need be.. After I clocked out, I'd still have to clean up w/e mess I made so that is pretty bad.. I'd also have to bring extra shoes and clothes after hosing down the blades and floor with chemicals and stuff.. I had to learn WHIMIS and all that other stuff such as every kind of meat there is! Identifying the liver, gizzard, heart, kidneys, arteries, everything! Not to mention understanding exactly what part each customer wants.. Anyway, after I left the job, guess what? All the other students who worked there realized it ain't worth 8.00 an hour and they all quit. 3 weeks later, manager calls me offering 10.00$ an hour because no one would apply for the meat section. Everyone wanted bakery or deli section positions. Even at 10.00 when minimum was 8.00, no one including myself would take the job.. Guess what my friend now gets paid in the meat section? 25$ an hour. That's right.. 25$!! Plus benefits if you stay longer than 6 months. Even got promoted and everything and begged him to stay lol. He's still there but it's a hell of a lot more than 8.00 considering all the crap we had to do. I'm glad he's making a decent wage now though. You have to know what it is like to have customers bitch and spit and throw down stuff on purpose to piss you off.

And this franchise grocery is known as No-Frills here in Canada.. I'm sure everyone who's been to a mcdonalds has seen a nasty customer they wanted to punch in the face for being rude to a cashier or purposely throwing a drink on the floor to annoy them.

Anyway, roughly 1 year later after I left, minimum wage is 10.50$ an hour and food prices have only gone up a little bit more than they were. So even with the increase in food prices, the wage increase is more than the food increase and so, it is easier for whoever works for these wages to live. Increasing minimum wage does increase food prices and job outsourcing but that's due to greed. Lets say that minimum increases 50%, that doesn't mean food prices are going to increase 50% too. It'll prob increase 15-30%. Still leaving the workers with a little extra to spend. That spending will help the economy in the end. There is no need for Yohojo or anyone else to say they don't deserve it because they do. Most of them are STUDENTS and it may be their first job. Good luck outsourcing McDonalds cashiers and burger flippers and w/e else to another country..

2. Just because someone worked in minimum wage doesn't give ANYONE else the right to belittle them. Everyone needs a first job at some point. However, I have a friend who is really good at programming.. Guess what? Every programming job wants a degree. After getting a degree/recommendation they tell him "You are over qualified for this job, we are looking for someone that will learn something at our company." And so, he removes lots off his resume and gets hired for way less than the degree is worth. Mind you having to pay off student loans with a job that doesn't pay because you have a degree is garbage. Oh and trust me, this has happened to me so many times now that I completely wiped off half the languages I know off my resume or replaced them with other stuff.

The reason a company says this is because with a degree, they have to pay you MORE money than without and so, they rather take interns for free or pay little or anyone without a degree and offer them a temporary or 6-month position/contract.

So basically, a degree/recommendation is sorta useless and just there to show that you know something but doesn't give you any guarantees or a higher chance than the next guy. In fact, most of the time it gives you less of a chance because no one wants to pay more. Thing is, without a degree or recommendation, you have no chance of even having your resume looked at either.

So either way it is a lose-lose situation most of the time and they'd rather computerise everything for free labour.

3. Half the guys at McDonalds have been doing cash for so long, they can count and do math far better than a lot of "high" paid idiots in the industries nowadays. I experienced this first hand with a businessman ordering meat and arguing I taxed him more.. In the end, I had to write this fool a balance sheet on his receipt and show him how to add 15% (GST & HST) tax.


Point is, just because someone has a degree or is a customer with an attitude at McDonalds or wherever it is, doesn't give them the right to talk down to students still in school or whoever and can't work full time.

No I don't work minimum wage but I used to so I know how it is for them.


For once in my entire life, I have to agree with xtrapsp;

xtrapsp
08-30-2013, 11:53 PM
What about the other people earning $15 an hour now? Don't they want a raise now? Simple economics, minimum wage goes to $15 an hour, the cost of products go up (no I'm not saying they would double, but doubling minimum wage would increase food prices by a lot)

So if they raise minimum wage to $15 an hour does that really help everybody? It's just going to cost the price of food products to go up even for the people working minimum wage therefor their back in square 1. And the truth to the fact is, if they want $15 an hour there is CERTAINLY someone who will do it for half the price..

So sure, raise minimum wage, but you won't be helping them any, and then more jobs will be exporting to other countries. Let's face it, for instance why would a company want to hire 500 factory workers and pay them $15 an hour (and soon have to provide health care or opt out and pay a fine) when it's hell of a lot cheaper for a country with a lower minimum wage to do it?

Ever hear of the saying: Everyone wants someone experienced, but no one wants to give experience.. This is currently what's happening.. If everyone at McDonalds were to quit, who'd train the new guys?


Well here's some "McFood" for thought and why this will never be the case.

1. I started out working in a grocery for 8.00 an hour and trust me, it was not the best thing being a teenage butcher and all the "other" tasks that come along with it for 8.00 an hour! Also note that what some managers used to do was send me on break or clock me out at the hr.45 mark so they won't have to pay the full hour or overtime if need be.. After I clocked out, I'd still have to clean up w/e mess I made so that is pretty bad.. I'd also have to bring extra shoes and clothes after hosing down the blades and floor with chemicals and stuff.. I had to learn WHIMIS and all that other stuff such as every kind of meat there is! Identifying the liver, gizzard, heart, kidneys, arteries, everything! Not to mention understanding exactly what part each customer wants.. Anyway, after I left the job, guess what? All the other students who worked there realized it ain't worth 8.00 an hour and they all quit. 3 weeks later, manager calls me offering 10.00$ an hour because no one would apply for the meat section. Everyone wanted bakery or deli section positions. Even at 10.00 when minimum was 8.00, no one including myself would take the job.. Guess what my friend now gets paid in the meat section? 25$ an hour. That's right.. 25$!! Plus benefits if you stay longer than 6 months. Even got promoted and everything and begged him to stay lol. He's still there but it's a hell of a lot more than 8.00 considering all the crap we had to do. I'm glad he's making a decent wage now though. You have to know what it is like to have customers bitch and spit and throw down stuff on purpose to piss you off.

And this franchise grocery is known as No-Frills here in Canada.. I'm sure everyone who's been to a mcdonalds has seen a nasty customer they wanted to punch in the face for being rude to a cashier or purposely throwing a drink on the floor to annoy them.

Anyway, roughly 1 year later after I left, minimum wage is 10.50$ an hour and food prices have only gone up a little bit more than they were. So even with the increase in food prices, the wage increase is more than the food increase and so, it is easier for whoever works for these wages to live. Increasing minimum wage does increase food prices and job outsourcing but that's due to greed. Lets say that minimum increases 50%, that doesn't mean food prices are going to increase 50% too. It'll prob increase 15-30%. Still leaving the workers with a little extra to spend. That spending will help the economy in the end. There is no need for Yohojo or anyone else to say they don't deserve it because they do. Most of them are STUDENTS and it may be their first job. Good luck outsourcing McDonalds cashiers and burger flippers and w/e else to another country..

2. Just because someone worked in minimum wage doesn't give ANYONE else the right to belittle them. Everyone needs a first job at some point. However, I have a friend who is really good at programming.. Guess what? Every programming job wants a degree. After getting a degree/recommendation they tell him "You are over qualified for this job, we are looking for someone that will learn something at our company." And so, he removes lots off his resume and gets hired for way less than the degree is worth. Mind you having to pay off student loans with a job that doesn't pay because you have a degree is garbage. Oh and trust me, this has happened to me so many times now that I completely wiped off half the languages I know off my resume or replaced them with other stuff.

The reason a company says this is because with a degree, they have to pay you MORE money than without and so, they rather take interns for free or pay little or anyone without a degree and offer them a temporary or 6-month position/contract.

So basically, a degree/recommendation is sorta useless and just there to show that you know something but doesn't give you any guarantees or a higher chance than the next guy. In fact, most of the time it gives you less of a chance because no one wants to pay more. Thing is, without a degree or recommendation, you have no chance of even having your resume looked at either.

So either way it is a lose-lose situation most of the time and they'd rather computerise everything for free labour.

3. Half the guys at McDonalds have been doing cash for so long, they can count and do math far better than a lot of "high" paid idiots in the industries nowadays. I experienced this first hand with a businessman ordering meat and arguing I taxed him more.. In the end, I had to write this fool a balance sheet on his receipt and show him how to add 15% (GST & HST) tax.


Point is, just because someone has a degree or is a customer with an attitude at McDonalds or wherever it is, doesn't give them the right to talk down to students still in school or whoever and can't work full time.

No I don't work minimum wage but I used to so I know how it is for them.


For once in my entire life, I have to agree with xtrapsp;


Thank you Brandon for being one of the smart people.


What about the other people earning $15 an hour now? Don't they want a raise now? Simple economics, minimum wage goes to $15 an hour, the cost of products go up (no I'm not saying they would double, but doubling minimum wage would increase food prices by a lot)

So if they raise minimum wage to $15 an hour does that really help everybody? It's just going to cost the price of food products to go up even for the people working minimum wage therefor their back in square 1. And the truth to the fact is, if they want $15 an hour there is CERTAINLY someone who will do it for half the price..

So sure, raise minimum wage, but you won't be helping them any, and then more jobs will be exporting to other countries. Let's face it, for instance why would a company want to hire 500 factory workers and pay them $15 an hour (and soon have to provide health care or opt out and pay a fine) when it's hell of a lot cheaper for a country with a lower minimum wage to do it?

You really have no idea. You've never been in work. You have no idea what hardwork is. Let alone about what people in this situation think of the economy.
I never said to up their pay to $15. I said to up their pay. It's a disgusting amount of money for the work done at the moment. Don't bother writing a thread and arguing in it if you don't know anything.




tl;dr :

The only people being dicks to the fast food workers are those who haven't experienced the real world yet.

Hoodz
08-30-2013, 11:53 PM
Its mac donalds, every one can do that..

Brandon
08-31-2013, 12:28 AM
Its mac donalds, every one can do that..

If you're not being sarcastic, then you can read on..

All I have to say to you is that if you are an American, you might wanna watch yourself because one more war and you will be competing with the Seniors in your job and guess who has priority position? They do. They will have 40 years experience over you and you will end up in McDonalds or some low end paying job and you might be one of the protesters of the future.

I don't work for near minimum at all. I consider myself lucky, but I'd bet my pay-cheque that you can't even boil rice and that goldfarming is how you survive. You know, it doesn't take much to setup a bot and farm virtual gold and sell overpriced pins on a website because mom and dad won't give you allowance.. However, when you get your first job other than playing rs, let me know.


It's runescape.. Everyone can do that..

Do you see how ignorant I just sounded in the above rant? That's how your statement sounded when I read it. There are some on this site who aren't as fortunate as us. Step in their shoes for a day.

Do you ever watch dirty jobs?

Sjoe
08-31-2013, 12:55 AM
If you're not being sarcastic, then you can read on..

All I have to say to you is that if you are an American, you might wanna watch yourself because one more war and you will be competing with the Seniors in your job and guess who has priority position? They do. They will have 40 years experience over you and you will end up in McDonalds or some low end paying job and you might be one of the protesters of the future.

I don't work for near minimum at all. I consider myself lucky, but I'd bet my pay-cheque that you can't even boil rice and that goldfarming is how you survive. You know, it doesn't take much to setup a bot and farm virtual gold and sell overpriced pins on a website because mom and dad won't give you allowance.. However, when you get your first job other than playing rs, let me know.



Do you see how ignorant I just sounded in the above rant? That's how your statement sounded when I read it. There are some on this site who aren't as fortunate as us. Step in their shoes for a day.

Do you ever watch dirty jobs?

I applaud for this man, so much respect :)

Hazzah
08-31-2013, 01:16 AM
I work two jobs, one for minimum wage, and one for $15 an hour, neither of them is skill labor... So I don't see what the complaint is that's being made by those saying unskilled labor doesn't deserve more.

Sjoe
08-31-2013, 01:36 AM
IMO my message to these people is stop having kids and buying stuff you can't afford.

Since my prev post got removed: Keep your messages for yourself.


I just think its ironic how some of the people on here think that mcdonalds or min wage jobs are for like "lower level" People.

You shouldn't judge a person based on where they work. Maybe its a part time job? Or they ran into health issues (like i did) and needed to pick up a second job to help pay for medicine?

Luckly ive never had to pick up harder working jobs for low pay. But for others atleast they're working instead of collecting welfare or something.

And most those jobs suck too...and hard/bad hours. I doubt any of them WANT to be there. But they do it

Also due to the fact alot of us are Pin/GP/Virtual good sellers....its kind of funny we judge them in a way that you call it "unskilled labor"

Dont really need much of an education to set up bots and farm or sell pins :P

Also here: #Peter4AdminScrewYohojo (http://villavu.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=Peter4AdminScrewYohojo)

Kasi
08-31-2013, 02:46 AM
daaaaaymmmn. Brandon; on a roll <3

Work is work. i personally think it all comes down to how much you think your time is worth, and how much your employer thinks your time is worth.

Flight
08-31-2013, 07:08 AM
Oi I can't agree with what a lot of you guys are saying. These people who work at an entry-level job are demanding a higher paygrade, one that is comparable to career that requires years spent in college. So then what's that say to the wiser people, those who went into college right after and spent years on the degrees to be able to have a stable, higher paying job, when they could have just taken the easy road and started flipping burgers for the same pay? So is this a reward the uneducated and devalue those who are? Clearly, only in the US...

I don't think any of these kids know what it means to truly have a busy/stressful day at work. Your main argument here pertains to the verbal treatment of these employees; is this a joke? Wanting a raise because your feelings get hurt at a job that you signed up for and many people would fight for. Have any of them spent 20 hours in a day disassembling an airplane, in the open on black asphalt at over 100 degrees? Have they ever removed 3 full-sized PT-6 jet engines from a 727 cargo plane in January, outside with ice rain? Have you ever been sent to South Africa to piece together DC-3s night & day for 2 weeks? Well I have, and I did it all for slightly more than half of what these people are demanding in their raise.

If you'd like I can compare their jobs to any given, normal or premium job in my country right now. A friend of mine works at a bank and she travels 65km to her office twice per day every day, and while they only work the standard 8-5 routine she also works on Saturday. She gets paid the equivalent of $250 per month; it's considered a high-paying job. Of that, can you imagine how much is left after paying for 2 buses back and fourth (4 total per day), 3 meals per day, and her house/water/electricity/phone? Also employees don't get paid here per week or 2 weeks, only per month, and every single business holds the same rule of your first month of work you will not be paid, simply because there are too many people who need a job they must filter out those who are skillful; like a required trial period.

And the people who take orders or flip burgers are demanding a raise? To me this is a joke, they have NO IDEA what it's really like.

Ian
08-31-2013, 08:25 AM
Oi I can't agree with what a lot of you guys are saying. These people who work at an entry-level job are demanding a higher paygrade, one that is comparable to career that requires years spent in college. So then what's that say to the wiser people, those who went into college right after and spent years on the degrees to be able to have a stable, higher paying job, when they could have just taken the easy road and started flipping burgers for the same pay? So is this a reward the uneducated and devalue those who are? Clearly, only in the US...

I don't think any of these kids know what it means to truly have a busy/stressful day at work. Your main argument here pertains to the verbal treatment of these employees; is this a joke? Wanting a raise because your feelings get hurt at a job that you signed up for and many people would fight for. Have any of them spent 20 hours in a day disassembling an airplane, in the open on black asphalt at over 100 degrees? Have they ever removed 3 full-sized PT-6 jet engines from a 727 cargo plane in January, outside with ice rain? Have you ever been sent to South Africa to piece together DC-3s night & day for 2 weeks? Well I have, and I did it all for slightly more than half of what these people are demanding in their raise.

If you'd like I can compare their jobs to any given, normal or premium job in my country right now. A friend of mine works at a bank and she travels 65km to her office twice per day every day, and while they only work the standard 8-5 routine she also works on Saturday. She gets paid the equivalent of $250 per month; it's considered a high-paying job. Of that, can you imagine how much is left after paying for 2 buses back and fourth (4 total per day), 3 meals per day, and her house/water/electricity/phone? Also employees don't get paid here per week or 2 weeks, only per month, and every single business holds the same rule of your first month of work you will not be paid, simply because there are too many people who need a job they must filter out those who are skillful; like a required trial period.

And the people who take orders or flip burgers are demanding a raise? To me this is a joke, they have NO IDEA what it's really like.

Although there are many good points to what you said, I don't think it's useful to compare wages in your country with wages in the US/UK. Would I be correct in saying that the cost of living in your country is also much lower than in the US/UK?

Brandon
08-31-2013, 09:50 AM
..


This line:


She gets paid the equivalent of $250 per month; it's considered a high-paying job.

Invalidates most of what you're saying already though. You live in the Netherlands. If anyone in America can even live on 500 a month, you won't have homeless at all lol. Everyone would be rich. I'm surprised she can even get to work, buy a meal, pay for housing all with 250.

IIRC, you live in the Netherlands? Something like that. The life there is completely different so no you cannot compare at all. Try 950+ for a basic apartment outside the city area, 3.00 for a bus ride, etc.. Won't even bother mentioning the price of a meal. I remember they charged me "Foreigner Gratitude" on my bill when I visited there(basically an automatic 15% tip if you have an accent + regular tip).

Your 250 number simply shows the difference in culture/country. 10.50 Minimum in Canada and w/e around 8.00 minimum in America. Yet the currency here is pretty much the same as theirs and the cost of living is slightly higher than theirs for food and items but lower for housing.


Have any of them spent 20 hours in a day disassembling an airplane, in the open on black asphalt at over 100 degrees? Have they ever removed 3 full-sized PT-6 jet engines from a 727 cargo plane in January, outside with ice rain?


Yes I have and I'm pretty sure I know the difference between a McJob and a "high-paying" job.. Though that wasn't high-paying and our degrees here is Celsius and no I didn't have it in Ice-Rain. They have hangers though :S. Aeronautics engineering and Mech. engineering went hand in hand when I was looking for a Mech. job.. Its far better than working the fast food chain. I can definitely say that. Since I have had both jobs (not McJobs but close enough), my question to you is.. Have you had a McJob?

masterBB
08-31-2013, 10:14 AM
Invalidates most of what you're saying already though. You live in the Netherlands. If anyone in America can even live on 500 a month, you won't have homeless at all lol. Everyone would be rich. I'm surprised she can even get to work, buy a meal, pay for housing all with 250.

The Netherlands is probably more expensive as the US. I think he lived in India.

e:
or was it Indonesia. Uhm that actually would matter a lot :p my memory so bad.

Hazzah
08-31-2013, 11:24 AM
Oi I can't agree with what a lot of you guys are saying. These people who work at an entry-level job are demanding a higher paygrade, one that is comparable to career that requires years spent in college. So then what's that say to the wiser people, those who went into college right after and spent years on the degrees to be able to have a stable, higher paying job, when they could have just taken the easy road and started flipping burgers for the same pay? So is this a reward the uneducated and devalue those who are? Clearly, only in the US...

I don't think any of these kids know what it means to truly have a busy/stressful day at work. Your main argument here pertains to the verbal treatment of these employees; is this a joke? Wanting a raise because your feelings get hurt at a job that you signed up for and many people would fight for. Have any of them spent 20 hours in a day disassembling an airplane, in the open on black asphalt at over 100 degrees? Have they ever removed 3 full-sized PT-6 jet engines from a 727 cargo plane in January, outside with ice rain? Have you ever been sent to South Africa to piece together DC-3s night & day for 2 weeks? Well I have, and I did it all for slightly more than half of what these people are demanding in their raise.

If you'd like I can compare their jobs to any given, normal or premium job in my country right now. A friend of mine works at a bank and she travels 65km to her office twice per day every day, and while they only work the standard 8-5 routine she also works on Saturday. She gets paid the equivalent of $250 per month; it's considered a high-paying job. Of that, can you imagine how much is left after paying for 2 buses back and fourth (4 total per day), 3 meals per day, and her house/water/electricity/phone? Also employees don't get paid here per week or 2 weeks, only per month, and every single business holds the same rule of your first month of work you will not be paid, simply because there are too many people who need a job they must filter out those who are skillful; like a required trial period.

And the people who take orders or flip burgers are demanding a raise? To me this is a joke, they have NO IDEA what it's really like.

I must say that I don't know how they do it in your country, but part of the issue in the US is the rising cost of schooling (I and my fellow classmates are over $80,000 in debt and only going into our junior year). When we get out of college the jobs that will be available for us will most likely be for about $10 an hour, which in your country might be a very high pay, but here in the US most of us would need to work 90 hours, untaxed, just to pay rent for a decent apartment, that's over two weeks of normal pay. Not to mention the fact that it will be ~$900 a month for school costs. We are already over the amount we would be making in a full month, but we still need to factor in food/water/healthcare/saving/ect. It's depressing that the pay grade of a CEO in the US might be $350,000+ with massive year end bonuses if the company does well, while the people actually doing work are receiving closer and closer to poverty level pay, even with college degrees. The idea here is not so much paying people more, but fully bringing up the standard of living and hopefully with that we can close up the massive disconnect that there has been between the top pay grade and the bottom pay grade.

Federal Minimum wage in the US is 7.25 I believe. Most state pay that price for minimum wage, but some of them to pay higher, like I believe Connecticut pays slightly over $8.00 an hour for minimum wage. In both PA/NY where I live during the summer and then during the school year, minimum wage is $7.25 and I don't know anyone who can live on a single job. I barely make enough each week to pay for my gas, let alone food/drink and to pay down the massive debt caused by the American college system.

J J
08-31-2013, 12:13 PM
I must say that I don't know how they do it in your country, but part of the issue in the US is the rising cost of schooling (I and my fellow classmates are over $80,000 in debt and only going into our junior year). When we get out of college the jobs that will be available for us will most likely be for about $10 an hour, which in your country might be a very high pay, but here in the US most of us would need to work 90 hours, untaxed, just to pay rent for a decent apartment, that's over two weeks of normal pay. Not to mention the fact that it will be ~$900 a month for school costs. We are already over the amount we would be making in a full month, but we still need to factor in food/water/healthcare/saving/ect. It's depressing that the pay grade of a CEO in the US might be $350,000+ with massive year end bonuses if the company does well, while the people actually doing work are receiving closer and closer to poverty level pay, even with college degrees. The idea here is not so much paying people more, but fully bringing up the standard of living and hopefully with that we can close up the massive disconnect that there has been between the top pay grade and the bottom pay grade.

Federal Minimum wage in the US is 7.25 I believe. Most state pay that price for minimum wage, but some of them to pay higher, like I believe Connecticut pays slightly over $8.00 an hour for minimum wage. In both PA/NY where I live during the summer and then during the school year, minimum wage is $7.25 and I don't know anyone who can live on a single job. I barely make enough each week to pay for my gas, let alone food/drink and to pay down the massive debt caused by the American college system.
Is this minimum wage in America the same for everyone or does it increase by age? Here in The Netherlands the wage is going up and reaches it maximum at 23 years old: around 9€. At 15 you are going to be paid less than 3€. At the time you are 19 you might earn 5€ if you are lucky.

It seems that getting a grade is really expensive in the US. I have to pay 1800€/year tuiton for four years and the total costs of books is around 800€ maybe. In total that makes around 8000€. And you can apply for study financing and if you get a grade you won't have to pay anything back. In total you can get around 4000€ from the government so the total cost would be 4000€ for getting a university grade.

Some companies will also pay you during your internship so you can already earn some money. With a bit of luck around 300€/month for a few months.

All in all it seems a lot better than the US. The downside? Once you start earning much you will pay 52% tax and that is how it gets funded.

Hazzah
08-31-2013, 12:36 PM
Is this minimum wage in America the same for everyone or does it increase by age? Here in The Netherlands the wage is going up and reaches it maximum at 23 years old: around 9€. At 15 you are going to be paid less than 3€. At the time you are 19 you might earn 5€ if you are lucky.

It seems that getting a grade is really expensive in the US. I have to pay 1800€/year tuiton for four years and the total costs of books is around 800€ maybe. In total that makes around 8000€. And you can apply for study financing and if you get a grade you won't have to pay anything back. In total you can get around 4000€ from the government so the total cost would be 4000€ for getting a university grade.

Some companies will also pay you during your internship so you can already earn some money. With a bit of luck around 300€/month for a few months.

All in all it seems a lot better than the US. The downside? Once you start earning much you will pay 52% tax and that is how it gets funded.

Minimum wage is the same, does not depend on age. School in the US for a decent state school is ~$35k/year for room+ board, + $1500 for books. I go to a private school, so it is a little more expensive. The taxes are the same for us, once you begin earning ~$50,000 a year the tax rate for a single male with no dependents is ~50%.

E: 50,000 a year might seem like a lot, but considering 50% is taken straight away for taxes, then you have the cost of house (which in a big city might be 2500/month and in smaller cities/towns is ~900/month) plus the 15-20 years its going to take to pay off your school debt, people hardly earn anything extra and that's making a decent amount, now try to have anything on minimum wage.

A small article about the subject.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/15/cost-of-college-degree-increase-12-fold-1120-percent-bloomberg_n_1783700.html

Wu-Tang Clan
08-31-2013, 01:11 PM
I'm not sure exactly where my comment stands in this arguement...

My current job is on a farm. I make $11.06, the workload is absolutely ridiculus, and I am treated terribly. Due to my family not being present very often I have to bike 15k to work every day. I AM thankful that I have a job and that I make so much per hour (min wage is 9.60). But I did start at minimum wage and worked my ass off to get $0.50 higher than the legal maximum wage. The health environment is the only reason that I am looking for another job.. every day I go into a barn and am breathing through a respirator, but when I leave at the end of the day, I am spitting out dirt and blowing it out my nose. I spend my own money on respirators so that I won't have health complications in my older days.

I go out every week handing out resumes to places in town to places that, if they knew what my job involved, would more than likely hire me. Yet when I walk into ex. McDonalds, I am greeted by some senior asking me what I will have. Then I ask for an application and the mood changes. She looks as if she wants to kill me. I take and fill out the application and hand it in, but not before the cashier can insert the "sad move": "We're not hiring right now, but we'll keep your resume and application on file.". Like if you weren't hiring you should have told me so that I wouldn't be wasting resumes at this place.

Also, when I get a call for an interview at ex. Tim Hortons, and am sitting down with the interviewer, she asks questions about my job and what I do. I answer them as politely as possible without blurting out what I want to say (I WILL DIE IF YOU DON'T HIRE ME), I say the reason I am looking for new employment is due to health hazards at my current workplace. She shows a fake look of concern and moves on with the questions. I say I am available at all hours the the day and am willing to work absolutely any shift outside of school. I also add that I am making $11.06 and am willing to take even under minimum wage.

I always get "no" as my interview answer. I don't know where this stands in this debate but I had to vent. So thanks everyone.

Flight
09-01-2013, 12:32 AM
This line:



Invalidates most of what you're saying already though. You live in the Netherlands. If anyone in America can even live on 500 a month, you won't have homeless at all lol. Everyone would be rich. I'm surprised she can even get to work, buy a meal, pay for housing all with 250.

IIRC, you live in the Netherlands? Something like that. The life there is completely different so no you cannot compare at all. Try 950+ for a basic apartment outside the city area, 3.00 for a bus ride, etc.. Won't even bother mentioning the price of a meal. I remember they charged me "Foreigner Gratitude" on my bill when I visited there(basically an automatic 15% tip if you have an accent + regular tip).

Your 250 number simply shows the difference in culture/country. 10.50 Minimum in Canada and w/e around 8.00 minimum in America. Yet the currency here is pretty much the same as theirs and the cost of living is slightly higher than theirs for food and items but lower for housing.


Indonesia; there is no minimum wage, there is no unemployment/retired/disabled pay, and only a handful of private companies or directly working in the government come with health benefits. While taxes still exist the people don't get anything in return, maybe a few street lights are fixed in a few months or half a kilometer of road is repaired within a year's time. If you'd like some further comparison on the corruption of your country (I'm assuming US?) compared to mine I invite you to read over this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) and directly highlighting corruption in Indonesia; this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Indonesia).

And yes she still does her job and she's thankful for the position she has, because if she loses her job then there's no help from the government, there is none of that nice unemployment income here; if you don't have enough money to live then your days on Earth quickly run out.



Yes I have and I'm pretty sure I know the difference between a McJob and a "high-paying" job.. Though that wasn't high-paying and our degrees here is Celsius and no I didn't have it in Ice-Rain. They have hangers though :S. Aeronautics engineering and Mech. engineering went hand in hand when I was looking for a Mech. job.. Its far better than working the fast food chain. I can definitely say that. Since I have had both jobs (not McJobs but close enough), my question to you is.. Have you had a McJob?

I'm gonna call BS on you claiming you've been in my exact situation. And hangers? That must have been nice. As I said, on those projects I listed we were outside because that option simply wasn't available for us; but did we bitch about it and demand a raise? No, we acted like adults and dealt with the job at hand.

xtrapsp
09-01-2013, 01:29 AM
Indonesia; there is no minimum wage, there is no unemployment/retired/disabled pay, and only a handful of private companies or directly working in the government come with health benefits. While taxes still exist the people don't get anything in return, maybe a few street lights are fixed in a few months or half a kilometer of road is repaired within a year's time. If you'd like some further comparison on the corruption of your country (I'm assuming US?) compared to mine I invite you to read over this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) and directly highlighting corruption in Indonesia; this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Indonesia).

And yes she still does her job and she's thankful for the position she has, because if she loses her job then there's no help from the government, there is none of that nice unemployment income here; if you don't have enough money to live then your days on Earth quickly run out.



I'm gonna call BS on you claiming you've been in my exact situation. And hangers? That must have been nice. As I said, on those projects I listed we were outside because that option simply wasn't available for us; but did we bitch about it and demand a raise? No, we acted like adults and dealt with the job at hand.

The problem isn't that they just want more pay. It's that they can't live on that pay and nothing is being done to help those people. Ok, Not all people deserve help. But if a country makes people so self concious of how much they earn compared to others then it's a bit unfair to say. You can earn $1200 a month. But pay $1400 on rent, and electricity. Let alone food etc.

Where does that other 200 come from? They give income help... of $20... ok so $180 to go. That $20 only goes back into the taxes they pay.

It's a lose lose cause.

By the way, this is coming from someone who worked from the age of 13. I know what work is. I know how hard it is. I've had plenty of hard jobs:

MaccyD
Café
KFC
Organising things from skips (Dead peoples crap, Wood, Mouldy food, Nappies).

And now I work in an office doing my somewhat dream job.

I struggle to get by. I have to pay for a car. Insurance all that crap. I pay rent. Thank god I don't eat alot otherwise I'd be really poor. To be honest, thats probably why I have that little allowance left. Because I don't have breakfast. I have £3 lunch every day. if I want dinner I either skip it and wait for lunch the next day or I work even more. e.g. Freelance Web design work.

Brandon
09-01-2013, 01:48 AM
On-Topic:

Indonesia; there is no minimum wage, there is no unemployment/retired/disabled pay, and only a handful of private companies or directly working in the government come with health benefits. While taxes still exist the people don't get anything in return, maybe a few street lights are fixed in a few months or half a kilometer of road is repaired within a year's time. If you'd like some further comparison on the corruption of your country (I'm assuming US?) compared to mine I invite you to read over this and directly highlighting corruption in Indonesia; this.

And yes she still does her job and she's thankful for the position she has, because if she loses her job then there's no help from the government, there is none of that nice unemployment income here; if you don't have enough money to live then your days on Earth quickly run out.

I'm living in Canada but I still feel bad for the American wage. What you stated here is true but you see, that's poverty due to corruption. That's not poverty due to greed. McDonalds makes iunno $500-Billion in a single year and out of that, how much do the CEO's get + bonuses? What do the workers get? The minimum wage in America is supposed to be the absolute minimum to survive. However, it is not. You would require 2-3 jobs as a student just to get to school. Seeing as you live in what I see to be bad, I don't see why you won't agree that a raise somewhere is obviously needed. If you don't fight for what you want, who will? At least the McDonalds employees are being courageous and actually truthful.

I know exactly what it felt like to be poor before I got on my feet. If you also understand how hard these minimum wage 9-5 jobs are, then you too would be sympathetic even if just a little. Especially if you are or were once a student.

Off-Topic:


I'm gonna call BS on you claiming you've been in my exact situation. And hangers? That must have been nice. As I said, on those projects I listed we were outside because that option simply wasn't available for us; but did we bitch about it and demand a raise? No, we acted like adults and dealt with the job at hand.


You know.. this is funny. I've always been belittled and stereotyped on these forums and told what I'm capable of and what I'm not.. Especially when I just joined but I'm pretty sure I've done enough by now but I guess not..

LOL I call BS on you though.. Here's why? Because YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ENGINEER/Programmer/w.e else ON THESE FORUMS. However, you can enjoy some pics I have on my cellphone from my trips to Montreal and BC and my Garage.. And when I get home, you can brace yourself because you've probably done far less than I have but I won't put you down or belittle you.

Iphone life:
http://i.imgur.com/MFn0iiT.jpg //Seneca college intern. Yes I am a 2x drop-out.
http://i.imgur.com/ysCg7WS.jpg //Same as above but larger view.
http://i.imgur.com/UJTDnsP.jpg //Helicopter view.
http://i.imgur.com/HV1FwVf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FF6yE8W.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VlcRhMb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UsM033w.jpg //Seen this on the chive but also in real life. Got to ride in it and clean the propellers.
http://i.imgur.com/7nWwNSF.jpg //Current project with my uncle.. Building a chopper.


Lol. I don't have any of us (myself and the team and the instructors taking apart anything because they are safety freaks and no phones or cameras or any electronics allowed on the job including music)

Need anymore? Oh here's my first year textbooks if you want that too (I sold the others):

http://i.imgur.com/JdOsFKV.jpg //Tried to fit most in one pic.. Don't mind my feet. Not sure why phone takes pics sideways.
http://puu.sh/4g1NK.JPG //And now you know my last name (I try hard to keep my name and internet identity hidden).. Uhh phone camera is bad so w.e.. It's a Jig I designed and built in the shop.

Oh you want more? Pfft. Not worth it to have someone on the internet try to tell me what I've done and what I haven't done (I've had enough of this). Just because I code doesn't mean that I'm a programmer.

When you know true hardwork and what other's have been through, then you'll understand why the others who are less fortunate want a raise. Simply saying "This is stupid, they don't deserve it" doesn't cut it.

You know what paid for my education? A single mom and my 2 "McJobs" (not actually McDonald's but minimum wage).

Meh. I'm going to sleep. I had enough arguing.

Dgby714
09-01-2013, 02:07 AM
Federal Minimum wage in the US is 7.25 I believe. Most state pay that price for minimum wage, but some of them to pay higher, like I believe Connecticut pays slightly over $8.00 an hour for minimum wage.

Some states even pay lower >..> Georgia... $5.15, Also note, cost of living in Georgia is actually quite low.

Tho I live in Florida where it is $7.79 (And has been rising)
Albeit, I can't find a job anywhere....

rj
09-01-2013, 02:10 AM
Some states even pay lower >..> Georgia... $5.15, Also note, cost of living in Georgia is actually quite low.

Tho I live in Florida where it is $7.79 (And has been rising)
Albeit, I can't find a job anywhere....

$7.25 here in Georgia :/ it was $5.15 for the longest time, but I think it some states like New York minimum wage is supposed to be higher due to higher cost of living? (Such as NYC) but probably isn't much.

Dgby714
09-01-2013, 02:26 AM
$7.25 here in Georgia :/ it was $5.15 for the longest time, but I think it some states like New York minimum wage is supposed to be higher due to higher cost of living? (Such as NYC) but probably isn't much.

7.25? Hmm, ~$2 increase? jebus

Flight
09-01-2013, 02:15 PM
You know.. this is funny. I've always been belittled and stereotyped on these forums and told what I'm capable of and what I'm not.. Especially when I just joined but I'm pretty sure I've done enough by now but I guess not..

LOL I call BS on you though.. Here's why? Because YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ENGINEER/Programmer/w.e else ON THESE FORUMS. However, you can enjoy some pics I have on my cellphone from my trips to Montreal and BC and my Garage.. And when I get home, you can brace yourself because you've probably done far less than I have but I won't put you down or belittle you.

Iphone life:
http://i.imgur.com/MFn0iiT.jpg //Seneca college intern. Yes I am a 2x drop-out.
http://i.imgur.com/ysCg7WS.jpg //Same as above but larger view.
http://i.imgur.com/UJTDnsP.jpg //Helicopter view.
http://i.imgur.com/HV1FwVf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FF6yE8W.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VlcRhMb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UsM033w.jpg //Seen this on the chive but also in real life. Got to ride in it and clean the propellers.
http://i.imgur.com/7nWwNSF.jpg //Current project with my uncle.. Building a chopper.


Lol. I don't have any of us (myself and the team and the instructors taking apart anything because they are safety freaks and no phones or cameras or any electronics allowed on the job including music)

Need anymore? Oh here's my first year textbooks if you want that too (I sold the others):

http://i.imgur.com/JdOsFKV.jpg //Tried to fit most in one pic.. Don't mind my feet. Not sure why phone takes pics sideways.
http://puu.sh/4g1NK.JPG //And now you know my last name (I try hard to keep my name and internet identity hidden).. Uhh phone camera is bad so w.e.. It's a Jig I designed and built in the shop.

Oh you want more? Pfft. Not worth it to have someone on the internet try to tell me what I've done and what I haven't done (I've had enough of this). Just because I code doesn't mean that I'm a programmer.

When you know true hardwork and what other's have been through, then you'll understand why the others who are less fortunate want a raise. Simply saying "This is stupid, they don't deserve it" doesn't cut it.

You know what paid for my education? A single mom and my 2 "McJobs" (not actually McDonald's but minimum wage).

Meh. I'm going to sleep. I had enough arguing.

Well then you have my apology Brandon. It wasn't right of me to assume I was the only one who busted ass working on airplanes, and furthermore I've not worked on a helicopter but I heard it's the gearing that makes them a real pain to work with, mechanically speaking. Can you blame me for doubting the fact that there are multiple people in this community who work(ed) in that specific area. But surely if you've truly worked a physically difficult as I have, and even in the same conditions, then I'm unable to understand what grounds you could possibly compare easy but constant tasks to difficult & limit-pushing work.

I too started working at a young age, nothing official, just working a nearby sawmill while I was in junior high or so. Did not continue college after highschool because I was taking machine shop still in my senior year; luckily it was free. All of my aviation education was on the job, I never even took the test for the AP license, but I still all the jobs that required them. Programming, no, never took a course; is that not obvious?...

J J
09-01-2013, 02:41 PM
Flight; and Brandon;
What about a programming related job? I had a job interview at a company and they were impressed with my knowledge and dedication for being a first year student. But I didn't had enough web based knowledge so they offered free PluralSight access worth around 300$/yr to learn a few web based languages. Currently working on that and once I have passed the courses I needed I should be able to start working for them. They sponsor the university corp I'm in and one teacher works there 4 days a week and one day a week of classes.

That would pay around 12,50€/h which is more than double the minimum wage for someone my age here.
My CV and education is not too impressive, just a summer job at a snackbar and at an amusement park. Education high school with the largest profile/subjects possible with alright grades. University first year passed all exams, 75% grade average.

Always hear stories from people that you don't need a degree in US/Canada to earn much so I don't see why a company wouldn't hire someone like Brandon with extensive Java and C++ knowledge. Probably more languages. And for Flight to be a SRL Developer you should be able to learn new languages that a company would want. But I have no idea how the situation in Indonesia is.

But judging from http://job-search.jobstreet.co.id/indonesia/search/programmer-jobs/ there certainly are jobs. You might need to have one or more years experience in the field but it never hurts to try. The job I tried to get was mainly meant for an internship but I might get it anyways.

I've only been programming for around 1,75 years so you two should be able to do the same. I don't think my 1 year of university knowledge would really make or break a job interview.

Flight
09-02-2013, 02:24 AM
Flight; and Brandon;
What about a programming related job? I had a job interview at a company and they were impressed with my knowledge and dedication for being a first year student. But I didn't had enough web based knowledge so they offered free PluralSight access worth around 300$/yr to learn a few web based languages. Currently working on that and once I have passed the courses I needed I should be able to start working for them. They sponsor the university corp I'm in and one teacher works there 4 days a week and one day a week of classes.

That would pay around 12,50€/h which is more than double the minimum wage for someone my age here.
My CV and education is not too impressive, just a summer job at a snackbar and at an amusement park. Education high school with the largest profile/subjects possible with alright grades. University first year passed all exams, 75% grade average.

Always hear stories from people that you don't need a degree in US/Canada to earn much so I don't see why a company wouldn't hire someone like Brandon with extensive Java and C++ knowledge. Probably more languages. And for Flight to be a SRL Developer you should be able to learn new languages that a company would want. But I have no idea how the situation in Indonesia is.

But judging from http://job-search.jobstreet.co.id/indonesia/search/programmer-jobs/ there certainly are jobs. You might need to have one or more years experience in the field but it never hurts to try. The job I tried to get was mainly meant for an internship but I might get it anyways.

I've only been programming for around 1,75 years so you two should be able to do the same. I don't think my 1 year of university knowledge would really make or break a job interview.

Yeah that's a good example actually. It's more than possible to get a good education without taking up an entry level job. This is reliant upon how good your grades were in highschool; did they qualify for a grant or scholarship? And of course I don't know how this works in the Netherlands but is it not similar or the same there? Good grades in school should be rewarded and continued school in a college or university should come free or a at dramatically reduced price. It's quite possible to get into a nice career if you really focus and give effort to you education at an early stage.

Yes well whatever programming knowledge I have myself is just what I've picked up alone. As I've said before this is a hobby for me, I was never serious about it, and I've surely never taken a programming course. I did however spend a few days following a beginners tutorial on creating a Java-based platformer game and porting it to Android; this is the only thing that comes close to programming training. But however far I get into it isn't very important as my primary job is working with the company I'm in now; this will always have priority and I didn't need to go to any school to be where I am now.

J J
09-02-2013, 11:42 AM
Yeah that's a good example actually. It's more than possible to get a good education without taking up an entry level job. This is reliant upon how good your grades were in highschool; did they qualify for a grant or scholarship? And of course I don't know how this works in the Netherlands but is it not similar or the same there? Good grades in school should be rewarded and continued school in a college or university should come free or a at dramatically reduced price. It's quite possible to get into a nice career if you really focus and give effort to you education at an early stage.

Yes well whatever programming knowledge I have myself is just what I've picked up alone. As I've said before this is a hobby for me, I was never serious about it, and I've surely never taken a programming course. I did however spend a few days following a beginners tutorial on creating a Java-based platformer game and porting it to Android; this is the only thing that comes close to programming training. But however far I get into it isn't very important as my primary job is working with the company I'm in now; this will always have priority and I didn't need to go to any school to be where I am now.
When you go to college or university you can apply for a "performance scholarship" regardless of your grades. You have 10 years to complete a study and if you do it will be turned into a gift. Otherwise you will need to pay it back.

I get 97,85€ per month so 1174,20€ in a year. Can also travel with public transport for free. Tuition fee is 1800€/yr so it costs me around 625€/yr + book costs. So with working a few hours a week you should be able to earn 1000€ a year to cover the costs straight away. You can keep living at your parents house and travel with your bicycle and public transport to get to university.

As long as you are earning less than €13.530,90 a year you can apply for a performance scholarship..

One thing that isn't too fair is the fact that the amount you get depends on your parents income. But if your parents are earning a lot it doesn't mean that they will pay for your study. So you will get significantly less but are still paying as much as the people that get the maximum amount.

But all in all.. it's pretty good.

Thanatos
09-02-2013, 01:04 PM
So...It's the companies responsibility to pay more? I thought their goal was to be a successful business...

Maybe SOME workers deserve higher pay...but not all of them.

Awkwardsaw
09-02-2013, 03:19 PM
My favorite work related quote is "The less you make per hour, the more you have to work". It especially relates to my trade. With me being an apprentice and making basically slave wages, I easily do most of the BS work around the job site, plus I still do everything that my journeyman does, who gets double the pay because he has gotten at least 8000 hours work experience. Now in 3 more years, I'll get my journeymans card, and be making the high-end salary like everyone else(As well as not having to dig as many holes, for example). I'm not complaining at all, I chose this career, and I love every minute of it. All I have to say is I don't feel bad for people who work fast-food. I know how hard it is(second hand experience) but I also know that even if you work at mcdonalds, you have a chance to work your way up the ladder and make more than $15 by eventually being promoted to manager(Hell, one day you can even start your own franchise, and watch all the money flow in), which gives you good experience for going out and getting better, less stressfull management jobs.

King
09-03-2013, 01:03 AM
I work at Mcdonalds, 15$ is ridiculous. I work horrible hours (usually 6am-4pm), get paid minimum wage, belittled on a daily basis, deal with people who are assholes all day, have to clock out early and still work, get called in at 3am, and in the morning basically run the store by myself, then get yelled at for not being fast enough. Ive got scars all over my arms from people dropping hot oil on me, to people knocking me into the grill on accident.

Point being, its a crappy job, I hate working there.

Good news? It makes we sure as hell want to go to college.
Mcdonalds is not meant to be a job to support yourself, let alone a family on. Does it give people a right to make fun of them? No. 3/4 the people at my Mcdonalds are teenagers just trying to pay for ramen and gas.


Should they make 15$/hr? No. It would be nice, but no. I would love too, but when all you need to know how to do can be taught in a day, you should make minimum wage.

I can do peoples totals in my head, do tax, this job has made me fast as hell at math and a numeber of other things, but it is not meant to support a family, or yourself fully.

E* Im not sure where you guys want to go to college in the US.. Im going to Eastern Michigan University for my four year Pre-Med for 15k a year, they are giving me 4.5k in scholarships just for having a 30 ACT and applying, plus I am competing for a scholarship for the entire four years, all paid. It just took work in school, taking advanced classes, learning ect. My first four years of college will cost me approx. 50k with room and board, I can take those out in student loans (dont have to pay until I finish all college), then go straight into my med-school ( U of M or John's Hopkins) and both will pay for my school if I agree to sign a contract with them to be a surgeon for four years. I want to be an Orthopedic Surgeon, I specialize in joints. Starting pay working for one of the hospitals who I sign with? 350k + 100k in benefits. So I would have roughly 75k in school bills.. I could pay them off the first year.. Being just my wife and I ( I am assuming ill be married by then..) I could easily live on 100k, that leaves 150k a year after taxes to put into savings for three years, so I would start off with 450k in savings while opening my own practice. Average pay after their 4 years are up? 650k + 100k benefits.



I dont see the issue, work your job, get up and find a job that is worth going to school for. It can be done, mom raised me while on welfare working two jobs.. funny thing is? She was valedictorian and got a 36 ACT.. Bad things happen to everyone. Just get back up.

grats
09-03-2013, 01:47 AM
Its mac donalds, every one can do that..

You'd think so, right?... But there are even people out there who can't spell it correctly...

Hoodz
09-03-2013, 05:30 AM
You'd think so, right?... But there are even people out there who can't spell it correctly...

Im not english? And here, if you want to work in the mc donalds, you will easily get the job

grats
09-03-2013, 06:40 AM
Im not english? And here, if you want to work in the mc donalds, you will easily get the job

it's in the title..

Hoodz
09-03-2013, 07:10 AM
it's in the title..

Oooh sorry

King
09-03-2013, 03:31 PM
You'd think so, right?... But there are even people out there who can't spell it correctly...

This made me laugh so hard, thankyou XD

Kevin
09-03-2013, 05:00 PM
One of the major issues I'm noticing in all these arguments is a sense of monetary value. Even within a single country, $5 in one place is not the same as $5 somewhere else. A standard of living is not quite as relevant (especially so in the United States) from one area to the next, when they aren't the same.

First let's look at the Twin Cities (a metropolitan area of around 5 million people within Minessota, United States): The standard of living here consists of *roughly* $650/month rent, $100-150 utilities and $150-400 food, depending on how one chooses to spend their money. It is also entirely possible to find apartments at $300/month or $1800/month. But that's not the standard, those are just adjustments if people wish to live nicer or live cheaper. Likewise, let's look at a medium sized metropolitan area of Iowa with around 600,000 people. The standard of living drops to about $450/month rent, $80 utilities and roughly the same in food (with of course much cheaper or more expensive rents existing). OR let's jump to the State of Washington and look at Seattle where a standard living is roughly $750/month rent $200 utilities and $200-500 food. And yes, there are plenty of cheaper AND more expensive cities within the U.S.A. alone.

Granted, my example states have different minimum wages, however they are NOT representative of those different costs. An Iowan minimum wage in the aforementioned metro area will absolutely cover 100% of bills with a significant portion of money still remaining, absolutely no problem. I think it's perfectly fine for McDonald's workers to earn $7.50 there, ESPECIALLY considering the fact that McDonalds has a fairly high turnover and anyone that actually dedicates themselves to staying even just 3 years is typically a manager with almost double the pay already. Maybe that example isn't a typical case, but from the number of friends I've had working both for McDonald's and Hardees and their testimonies, that applies (I will grant those testimonies are 100% within the Iowa area). However, in Seattle, if someone is getting paid $7.50 for that same work, I do NOT agree with that. Someone could live off that even still, but there would be absolutely no spare money, and they would be forced into a minimalist lifestyle (which actually suits many people just fine, but we're referring to standards, not what people are capable of). But even in that case, a pay of $11 or so would be plenty high considering the differences in costs of living in relation. Will they ever make it anywhere doing the bare minimum work at a McDonalds? Probably not, although with dedication they could reasonably hit the $20/hr mark even there - but it would earn enough to help pay for schooling or the necessary time to apply to other better jobs.

As it stands, I don't think there should be a universal pay raise, so much as a respective pay raise. But it can't be a government instated one either, simply due to the size and infrastructure of changes that would be required... Individual cities/metropolitans would require specific pays as opposed to other areas, because you could simply take Seattle's new minimum wage and simply live in a much cheaper portion of Washington. My 2 cents isn't the same as the next guy's 2 cents, and that's something that needs to be brought into consideration. How do they differ?

Another thing to take into account is how willing people are to actually use their money intelligently... I am quite capable of eating healthily and with variety off ~$100/month, but instead I get lazy and eat out and average ~$300/month instead. Being capable of living off of $1200/month and actually doing so are very different things...

Edit: Also, I've been gone for a month. Sup, everyone.

King
09-03-2013, 07:09 PM
One of the major issues I'm noticing in all these arguments is a sense of monetary value. Even within a single country, $5 in one place is not the same as $5 somewhere else. A standard of living is not quite as relevant (especially so in the United States) from one area to the next, when they aren't the same.

First let's look at the Twin Cities (a metropolitan area of around 5 million people within Minessota, United States): The standard of living here consists of *roughly* $650/month rent, $100-150 utilities and $150-400 food, depending on how one chooses to spend their money. It is also entirely possible to find apartments at $300/month or $1800/month. But that's not the standard, those are just adjustments if people wish to live nicer or live cheaper. Likewise, let's look at a medium sized metropolitan area of Iowa with around 600,000 people. The standard of living drops to about $450/month rent, $80 utilities and roughly the same in food (with of course much cheaper or more expensive rents existing). OR let's jump to the State of Washington and look at Seattle where a standard living is roughly $750/month rent $200 utilities and $200-500 food. And yes, there are plenty of cheaper AND more expensive cities within the U.S.A. alone.

Granted, my example states have different minimum wages, however they are NOT representative of those different costs. An Iowan minimum wage in the aforementioned metro area will absolutely cover 100% of bills with a significant portion of money still remaining, absolutely no problem. I think it's perfectly fine for McDonald's workers to earn $7.50 there, ESPECIALLY considering the fact that McDonalds has a fairly high turnover and anyone that actually dedicates themselves to staying even just 3 years is typically a manager with almost double the pay already. Maybe that example isn't a typical case, but from the number of friends I've had working both for McDonald's and Hardees and their testimonies, that applies (I will grant those testimonies are 100% within the Iowa area). However, in Seattle, if someone is getting paid $7.50 for that same work, I do NOT agree with that. Someone could live off that even still, but there would be absolutely no spare money, and they would be forced into a minimalist lifestyle (which actually suits many people just fine, but we're referring to standards, not what people are capable of). But even in that case, a pay of $11 or so would be plenty high considering the differences in costs of living in relation. Will they ever make it anywhere doing the bare minimum work at a McDonalds? Probably not, although with dedication they could reasonably hit the $20/hr mark even there - but it would earn enough to help pay for schooling or the necessary time to apply to other better jobs.

As it stands, I don't think there should be a universal pay raise, so much as a respective pay raise. But it can't be a government instated one either, simply due to the size and infrastructure of changes that would be required... Individual cities/metropolitans would require specific pays as opposed to other areas, because you could simply take Seattle's new minimum wage and simply live in a much cheaper portion of Washington. My 2 cents isn't the same as the next guy's 2 cents, and that's something that needs to be brought into consideration. How do they differ?

Another thing to take into account is how willing people are to actually use their money intelligently... I am quite capable of eating healthily and with variety off ~$100/month, but instead I get lazy and eat out and average ~$300/month instead. Being capable of living off of $1200/month and actually doing so are very different things...

Edit: Also, I've been gone for a month. Sup, everyone.

Good thoughts, welcome back :)

jayshawn
09-05-2013, 10:58 AM
Prices of everything are going up but not salary. They are doing the right thing. Even McDonalds food prices are going up. These people have bills

King
09-05-2013, 03:00 PM
Prices of everything are going up but not salary. They are doing the right thing. Even McDonalds food prices are going up. These people have bills

But a sudden across the board pay raise wouldn't help anyone. Cost of living VS Area VS Payrate..

Economics do not just apply because it is what people want..

Sjoe
09-05-2013, 03:36 PM
They can always go for other options like

selling their body's

footballjds
09-05-2013, 03:51 PM
> Coming from someone who worked at KFC and Maccy D.

It's a horrible job where you are treated like dog poo. The hours are overdone and the workload are stupid.
I for one say, give them a pay rise. At least they're working. Trying to get out there.

Might I also add Yohojo, Working in the fast food industry does not require no education. You of all people should know this. Especially as you constantly ask for help on this matter.
Working at fast food requires on-the-job skills and education like the basic, reading, writing, mathematics etc.

I once met a man in KFC who came in and the conversation went like so:

Man: "Which one of your buckets is cheapest but best for value for a family of 4? 2 little ones, aged 6 and 7 and 2 adults"
Me: "To be honest, it depends on the amount you wish to eat and how much your budget is".
Man: "In that case I'l go for the 14 piece bargain bucket with 2 hotwings"
Me: "I can make that cheaper for you, just by adding the extra hotwing package"
Man: "Thanks, I thought most people who worked in fast food were incompetent with logic"
Me: "Well, Not all of us are made for fast food. Especially during this terrible time with the economy, I go to school 9-5 and work 6-10."
Man: "I work at a school, teaching history, maybe one day you'l be as good as me"
Me: "I am as a good as you, if not better."

^^ He left.

What I'm trying to say is, you can put these people down, you can push them away. But not all of them have the stereotypes you justified above. - Officer Barbrady.

What sickens me is the elitist view a lot of you have. You're mostly all from fairly well off families or have been spoon fed to help you into your education.

I've gone from Crap Grades in school and a terrible job at KFC to Working in IT and earning more than all the people in my school year who did good at their academic studies. At the end of the day these people do have jobs. They don't need ignorant idiots like yourselves putting them down because you go to them for your quick meal and to look down on them.

Grow up. I would expect better from an SRL member, let alone a moderator

Mum/mom can't buy us everything. You haven't even got an idea of what work is.

I moved out with 50$ when i turned 17. I lived on minimum wage(7.25$/hr here in PA) for a while(about a year). I am self-supporting. I've never collected any welfare or food stamps.
Working at a fastfood place and making minimum wage is a ***tty job. I'd never do it because I don't like the environment. However, it takes no skill, I know this because of the friends I have that work fast food.

The issue isn't how much they make an hour, it is what they do with their money. I could only pay rent, I never used heat in the winter or AC in the summer. The left over money went to food. It sucked balls, but I lived TOTALLY fine.

xtrapsp
09-05-2013, 06:06 PM
I moved out with 50$ when i turned 17. I lived on minimum wage(7.25$/hr here in PA) for a while(about a year). I am self-supporting. I've never collected any welfare or food stamps.
Working at a fastfood place and making minimum wage is a ***tty job. I'd never do it because I don't like the environment. However, it takes no skill, I know this because of the friends I have that work fast food.

The issue isn't how much they make an hour, it is what they do with their money. I could only pay rent, I never used heat in the winter or AC in the summer. The left over money went to food. It sucked balls, but I lived TOTALLY fine.

1. You're saying you had no help? I somehow don't believe that. If the person you moved in with had a cheap room. That's help.
2. Your friends worked there, yea ok, so you know how it feels? Maybe they didn't do a good job? I worked my bloody ass off trying to get a promotion. I worked overtime for no money. I did lifts. I did the bloody Managers work. Trust me, when people actually get up off their arse a do a job properly it's hard work. Don't you dare tell me that it takes no skill when you haven't even worked there and your idiotic friends are lazy as anything.

3. The issue is in some places the living arrangements cost more than the earning wage. Take me for example. I have a good job now. IT Support. But I have to TRAVEL 50+ MILES A DAY. That costs money ya know?

Well done for being a lucky person. But don't you dare tell me that working in fast food takes no skill. You obviously didn't live totally fine if your intelligence is this pathetic.

Sjoe
09-05-2013, 06:11 PM
1. You're saying you had no help? I somehow don't believe that. If the person you moved in with had a cheap room. That's help.
2. Your friends worked there, yea ok, so you know how it feels? Maybe they didn't do a good job? I worked my bloody ass off trying to get a promotion. I worked overtime for no money. I did lifts. I did the bloody Managers work. Trust me, when people actually get up off their arse a do a job properly it's hard work. Don't you dare tell me that it takes no skill when you haven't even worked there and your idiotic friends are lazy as anything.

3. The issue is in some places the living arrangements cost more than the earning wage. Take me for example. I have a good job now. IT Support. But I have to TRAVEL 50+ MILES A DAY. That costs money ya know?

Well done for being a lucky person. But don't you dare tell me that working in fast food takes no skill. You obviously didn't live totally fine if your intelligence is this pathetic.

There u have it, the special xtrapsp love.

That's all folks.

smurg
09-05-2013, 06:25 PM
> Coming from someone who worked at KFC and Maccy D.

It's a horrible job where you are treated like dog poo. The hours are overdone and the workload are stupid.
I for one say, give them a pay rise. At least they're working. Trying to get out there.

Might I also add Yohojo, Working in the fast food industry does not require no education. You of all people should know this. Especially as you constantly ask for help on this matter.
Working at fast food requires on-the-job skills and education like the basic, reading, writing, mathematics etc.

----

What I'm trying to say is, you can put these people down, you can push them away. But not all of them have the stereotypes you justified above. - Officer Barbrady.

What sickens me is the elitist view a lot of you have. You're mostly all from fairly well off families or have been spoon fed to help you into your education.

I've gone from Crap Grades in school and a terrible job at KFC to Working in IT and earning more than all the people in my school year who did good at their academic studies. At the end of the day these people do have jobs. They don't need ignorant idiots like yourselves putting them down because you go to them for your quick meal and to look down on them.

Grow up. I would expect better from an SRL member, let alone a moderator

Mum/mom can't buy us everything. You haven't even got an idea of what work is.

If you don't like the responsibilities of a job, then leave and find another one. No one forces you to accept others mistreating you or not allowing you to stand up for yourself. Yohojo probably meant that unskilled labor doesn't require any form of "higher" education. Obviously as you imply, the person must be able to read, write, and breath for the most part.

The only person in this thread so that has gotten personal (aside from any deleted comments) is you. No one is belittling any worker, educated beyond high school or not. From what I read, unskilled labor at some of the most basic tasks is at the bottom of the national pay scale (which is fitting; someone has to be at the bottom). Companies can pay whatever people are willing to work for (legally of course). There happens to be a large work force that is willing to perform said tasks for the federal and/or state minimum wage (nothing wrong with that).


I just think its ironic how some of the people on here think that mcdonalds or min wage jobs are for like "lower level" People.

You shouldn't judge a person based on where they work. Maybe its a part time job? Or they ran into health issues (like i did) and needed to pick up a second job to help pay for medicine?

Luckly ive never had to pick up harder working jobs for low pay. But for others atleast they're working instead of collecting welfare or something.

And most those jobs suck too...and hard/bad hours. I doubt any of them WANT to be there. But they do it

Also due to the fact alot of us are Pin/GP/Virtual good sellers....its kind of funny we judge them in a way that you call it "unskilled labor"

Dont really need much of an education to set up bots and farm or sell pins :P

I haven't seen anyone judging anyone else. If an individual really wants to succeed and earn a higher standard of living, believe me, they will. These McDonald's positions, for the most part, don't pay enough as a main source of income to live an average lifestyle. Someone shouldn't expect to live nicely going into a minimum wage job. As for many people, you use it as a stepping stone to gain experience or save money to leverage yourself into better opportunities.


The reason a company says this is because with a degree, they have to pay you MORE money than without and so, they rather take interns for free or pay little or anyone without a degree and offer them a temporary or 6-month position/contract.

So basically, a degree/recommendation is sorta useless and just there to show that you know something but doesn't give you any guarantees or a higher chance than the next guy. In fact, most of the time it gives you less of a chance because no one wants to pay more. Thing is, without a degree or recommendation, you have no chance of even having your resume looked at either.

So either way it is a lose-lose situation most of the time and they'd rather computerise everything for free labour.

Nothing is guaranteed in life. I can say without a doubt though that if you had 2 people exactly the same, one with a degree and one without, any competent employer would take the person with the degree 10 times out of 10.

For almost any technical position, you won't be competing against any prospective employees without a degree or adequate training/certification. Also, I am not aware of any law mandating companies to pay a person depending on their level of education. It could be a company policy, but you can always negotiate your salary/wage. A degree is just a sign of competency of being able to learn, take instruction, and produce results while providing you a primer to industry knowledge.


On-Topic:
I'm living in Canada but I still feel bad for the American wage. What you stated here is true but you see, that's poverty due to corruption. That's not poverty due to greed. McDonalds makes iunno $500-Billion in a single year and out of that, how much do the CEO's get + bonuses? What do the workers get? The minimum wage in America is supposed to be the absolute minimum to survive. However, it is not. You would require 2-3 jobs as a student just to get to school. Seeing as you live in what I see to be bad, I don't see why you won't agree that a raise somewhere is obviously needed. If you don't fight for what you want, who will? At least the McDonalds employees are being courageous and actually truthful.

I know exactly what it felt like to be poor before I got on my feet. If you also understand how hard these minimum wage 9-5 jobs are, then you too would be sympathetic even if just a little. Especially if you are or were once a student.

McDonald's made a net income of 5.46B last year, quite a longshot from 500B. CEO's salary vs what the workers earn has no regard for each other. There are more people in the world that can flip hamburgers that can aptly manage a multi-billion dollar company. Depending on how big the company is, what type of workload and objective the board of directors (or owner) are looking for, CEO's salary can vary a lot.

I've worked a number of minimum wage jobs and the pay is in line with the duty (of what I've experienced).


3. The issue is in some places the living arrangements cost more than the earning wage. Take me for example. I have a good job now. IT Support. But I have to TRAVEL 50+ MILES A DAY. That costs money ya know?

You don't "have" to travel that far. You could look for living arrangements closer.

footballjds
09-05-2013, 06:32 PM
1. You're saying you had no help? I somehow don't believe that. If the person you moved in with had a cheap room. That's help.
2. Your friends worked there, yea ok, so you know how it feels? Maybe they didn't do a good job? I worked my bloody ass off trying to get a promotion. I worked overtime for no money. I did lifts. I did the bloody Managers work. Trust me, when people actually get up off their arse a do a job properly it's hard work. Don't you dare tell me that it takes no skill when you haven't even worked there and your idiotic friends are lazy as anything.

3. The issue is in some places the living arrangements cost more than the earning wage. Take me for example. I have a good job now. IT Support. But I have to TRAVEL 50+ MILES A DAY. That costs money ya know?

Well done for being a lucky person. But don't you dare tell me that working in fast food takes no skill. You obviously didn't live totally fine if your intelligence is this pathetic.

you're a bit heated. Calm down.

I moved into a trailer 1 mile from my job so my commute was shorter, SAVES A LOT OF MONEY. Do i see friends and family as often? NO.

I'm not lucky, I just learned to live with less. Something American's are TERRIBLE at.

smurg
09-05-2013, 06:38 PM
FWIW, I've worked with welders (with no formal education) offshore in the Gulf of Mexico laying pipeline making $50-100/hr, 12 hour days, 7 days a week.

Although skilled labor, it amounted to being able to lay a steady bead using what amounts to an xbox-controller controlling 1 parameter in some cases (mechanized GMAW root to cap).

Get into industries that are actively in need of personnel that pay. (e.g. Oil&Gas)

When you are easily replaceable at a job, then you will have less leverage in earnings and responsibilities.

-------------

Funny enough, one of the reasons I got the job was because of my computer/programming skills (we do a lot of excel template sheets driven by VBA).

There are many free tools out there to learn and become educated (library, internet, etc.) that can propel the driven to find other opportunities if they want to.

xtrapsp
09-05-2013, 06:43 PM
If you don't like the responsibilities of a job, then leave and find another one. No one forces you to accept others mistreating you or not allowing you to stand up for yourself. Yohojo probably meant that unskilled labor doesn't require any form of "higher" education. Obviously as you imply, the person must be able to read, write, and breath for the most part.


>> A job is a job. They aren't that easy to come by at the moment. Take what you can get but that doesn't give the employers a reason to treat you like crap. Also Not liking the responsibilities has nothing to do with it. I stayed late without pay (Not in my contract). I did the managers time sheets (Not in my contract and the reason they got payed more). When I asked for more money they brushed me aside. But it's ok because I can just get another job from inside my arse.





The only person in this thread so that has gotten personal (aside from any deleted comments) is you. No one is belittling any worker, educated beyond high school or not. From what I read, unskilled labor at some of the most basic tasks is at the bottom of the national pay scale (which is fitting; someone has to be at the bottom). Companies can pay whatever people are willing to work for (legally of course). There happens to be a large work force that is willing to perform said tasks for the federal and/or state minimum wage (nothing wrong with that).



>> Obviously missed what RJJ said. Can't really comment.
>>> Yes and the disgusting thing is the living wage is above the actual wage. People are expected to get multiple jobs etc. My argument was that isn't as easy as it seems. The only people who are disputing the amount of work and effort that these people do is those who haven't actually done those jobs. It's easy to judge and be-little when you haven't done it. Isn't it?

Ian
09-05-2013, 08:35 PM
You don't "have" to travel that far. You could look for living arrangements closer.
It's much more expensive to live in a city where most of the employment is. It's usually cheaper to drive long distances into the city than to rent a more expensive living area right in the city.

smurg
09-05-2013, 08:41 PM
It's much more expensive to live in a city where most of the employment is. It's usually cheaper to drive long distances into the city than to rent a more expensive living area right in the city.

Options would be limited but you could rent from shared housing. 1 room + shared kitchen, etc.

cause
09-06-2013, 12:35 AM
I feel like McDonalds can pay less also because they would be what you could consider "easy employment". They are an obvious choice with, I'm sure, many applicants at any given time. This gives them the ability to pay less. Fair? meh.

One thing I'll say is, I moved from my hometown out to Northern Alberta because of the high availability of jobs...it was such a good decision. I know it doesn't work for everyone, but seriously consider "getting while the getting's good". My hometown in BC had a few options for summer employment (student): McDons, Stream (call rep, did it for awhile, soul-sucking work) and some construction. You had to apply and try very hard to get these jobs. In Alberta, ha, the streets are practically paved with gold. My first job started me at 26.50/hr with no experience and a couple day-long training classes (first aid, H2S Alive, Air Brakes)...
So my final thoughts would be: get uncomfortable and get what you want out of life, if you're unhappy, and you can, change it.

(Also it is getting heated in here, we are all still part of the same community)

Flight
09-06-2013, 01:10 AM
you're a bit heated. Calm down.

I moved into a trailer 1 mile from my job so my commute was shorter, SAVES A LOT OF MONEY. Do i see friends and family as often? NO.

I'm not lucky, I just learned to live with less. Something American's are TERRIBLE at.

Learn to live with less and deal with your situation; you have the right state of mind mate and, to me, that's respectable.


I feel like McDonalds can pay less also because they would be what you could consider "easy employment". They are an obvious choice with, I'm sure, many applicants at any given time. This gives them the ability to pay less. Fair? meh.

One thing I'll say is, I moved from my hometown out to Northern Alberta because of the high availability of jobs...it was such a good decision. I know it doesn't work for everyone, but seriously consider "getting while the getting's good". My hometown in BC had a few options for summer employment (student): McDons, Stream (call rep, did it for awhile, soul-sucking work) and some construction. You had to apply and try very hard to get these jobs. In Alberta, ha, the streets are practically paved with gold. My first job started me at 26.50/hr with no experience and a couple day-long training classes (first aid, H2S Alive, Air Brakes)...
So my final thoughts would be: get uncomfortable and get what you want out of life, if you're unhappy, and you can, change it.

(Also it is getting heated in here, we are all still part of the same community)

If things aren't working out for you in your current situation then do a 180 on the situation, change it completely. As I read a quote one of my friends posted a few days ago "If you want something you've never had you have to do something you've never done".

And yeah you're right it's getting a bit over the edge in here. I'm also to blame as I let the argument get the best of me. Apologies to anyone I might have offended here...

Daniel
09-06-2013, 12:09 PM
Guys,

Remember to keep discussion civil and remember to play the ball, not the player. Show respect and do not outright attack those making an argument contrary to your own. Doing so will land you a warning or an infraction, depending on the posts severity.

Also note, swearing is NOT allowed at SRL. Any and all posts found to be in violation of the rule will receive the appropriate infraction (NO warnings). I have just gone through this thread and cleaned up all posts that contain such inappropriate swear words.

Forget the rules? Have a re-read of them here (http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6964&p=67456#post67456).

Repeat violations of the forum rules will lead to this topic being closed.

Regards,
~ Daniel.

Main
09-06-2013, 07:43 PM
That would be quite wonderful

dogrin
09-14-2013, 08:03 PM
I think a raise is reasonable, but 15 seems a little too much.

footballjds
09-15-2013, 09:19 PM
I think a raise is reasonable, but 15 seems a little too much.

WHY is a raise reasonable??? McDonalds highers ANYONE that is willing to work and show up to work. The requirements and experience is NONE.

Please give a few reasons why you think a raise is due. living off minimum wage with no government assistance is TOTALLY possible. I did it for a year.

dogrin
09-15-2013, 10:02 PM
WHY is a raise reasonable??? McDonalds highers ANYONE that is willing to work and show up to work. The requirements and experience is NONE.

Please give a few reasons why you think a raise is due. living off minimum wage with no government assistance is TOTALLY possible. I did it for a year.

It depends on where you live, rent in some places is extremely expensive. Also take in account for health insurance, car insurance, not much sleep or time to raise a family. There's no reason anyone should have to work 70 or more hours a week to barely get some basic needs.

rj
09-15-2013, 10:11 PM
It depends on where you live, rent in some places is extremely expensive. Also take in account for health insurance, car insurance, not much sleep or time to raise a family. There's no reason anyone should have to work 70 or more hours a week to barely get some basic needs.

Mcdonalds is not responsible for paying their workers enough for health insurance and enough to raise a family.

masterBB
09-15-2013, 10:44 PM
I think minimum loan should be the minimum amount of money a person needs to be able to live a normal life with health insurance. No car(unless for work), iphone, jetfighter or small private tropical islands.

It is not up to mac Donalds. But the government to make this happen.

slushpuppy
09-15-2013, 11:38 PM
Instead of forcing big Mac to pay you higher wages through legislation(they will find ways around it), why don't people boycott mcdonalds, why don't people buy their meals from small business owners? A server at a small bar will easily earn 3x what his/her counterpart in McDonalds..

Unfortunately, people like to be punished. They would lick the boot that kick them. They will still continue to support Mcdonalds inspite of the crap they serve everyday, but after work hours, go whinge about it in the pub or online or somewhere.. Oh the irony

Kevin
09-16-2013, 02:12 PM
Instead of forcing big Mac to pay you higher wages through legislation(they will find ways around it), why don't people boycott mcdonalds, why don't people buy their meals from small business owners? A server at a small bar will easily earn 3x what his/her counterpart in McDonalds..

Unfortunately, people like to be punished. They would lick the boot that kick them. They will still continue to support Mcdonalds inspite of the crap they serve everyday, but after work hours, go whinge about it in the pub or online or somewhere.. Oh the irony

I've never heard of a server at a small bar easily earning $25/hr before... I've heard some waitresses earn that in very fancy sushi restaurants, but that's about the limit from the food service industry - and we're talking restaurants that cost $80+/meal to reach that kind of money as a waitress.

King
09-16-2013, 02:28 PM
I've never heard of a server at a small bar easily earning $25/hr before... I've heard some waitresses earn that in very fancy sushi restaurants, but that's about the limit from the food service industry - and we're talking restaurants that cost $80+/meal to reach that kind of money as a waitress.

The only place to make that kind of money as a server would be in one of Disney's higher class restaurants or in a Vegas hotel of that same quality.

The WDW waiting staff make tip wage, but an automatic 15% is added to EVERY bill for gratuity.

The average meal for two at a sit down restaurant is roughly 80-100$ (I've been going to WDW for 6-7 years, and eaten in almost every restaurant) so that is 12-15$ in gratuity per table, if we only have two people at every table ( we have 6 and rack up 200-300$ of food everywhere). Knowing some staff, you can wait roughly 5-6 tables per hour, putting you at 60-90$/hour. After splitting with the other staff (WDW does do this) you end up with 40-50$ an hour. Not that bad for a server, but this is an extreme case ;)

samerdl
09-21-2013, 11:09 AM
The big issue here isn't the wage ratio, the u.s government can raise the overall minimum wage for all work fields - but then again they will just raise all the living expenses prices.. Thus the minimum wage rising is meaningless..

The overall plea here isn't to make McDonald 15$ or 14$, its the citizens outcry, they wanna work and meet ends-needs & be able to live with that money.. With the money they are making they can't, you pay all taxes and are supposed to crawl on a strict budget... That's no way to live.

Work on pricing issues then minimum wage won't be an issue.. Why is it a medicine that costs in america tens if not hundreds of dollars in other countries costs pennies?, think about that, why support other countries and hand out trillions of dollars while your own population is homeless and starving?..

Am not from the U.S, thanks for your financial support (u.s tax payer money) to Israel am able to get free health-care and relatively reasonable tuition pricing..But then again we have similar issues with pricing and living costs.

haiku
09-28-2013, 04:31 AM
What kind of revenue does McDonald's bring in anyway? I guess what I'm getting at is how plausible would it be for them to pay all their employees $15/hr? IMO, I have a feeling that they could swing it...

rj
09-28-2013, 12:40 PM
What kind of revenue does McDonald's bring in anyway? I guess what I'm getting at is how plausible would it be for them to pay all their employees $15/hr? IMO, I have a feeling that they could swing it...

What about small business's?
You have a feeling they could *easily* just start paying hundreds of thousands of workers double their wage?

haiku
09-28-2013, 06:30 PM
What about small business's?
You have a feeling they could *easily* just start paying hundreds of thousands of workers double their wage?

Uh, what?... Who said we were talking about small business? McDonald's is a corporation... Plus their food is downright deplorable.
Quit skewing my posts, dude. Just because I made a bunch of posts last night, doesn't mean I didn't think them out or had some sort of opinion about...

rj
09-28-2013, 06:53 PM
Uh, what?... Who said we were talking about small business? McDonald's is a corporation... Plus their food is downright deplorable.
Quit skewing my posts, dude. Just because I made a bunch of posts last night, doesn't mean I didn't think them out or had some sort of opinion about...
I'm not scewing your post. But how would you go about making McDonalds pay their working $15 an hour? You would have to raise the minimum wage, as you cannot target Mcdonalds specifically.. raising the minimum wage would then effect all companies paying minimum wage >,<

And if you don't like their food then don't eat there, plenty of other people will. The beauty of freedom, no one is forcing you to eat their unhealthy food.

haiku
09-28-2013, 07:10 PM
I'm not scewing your post. But how would you go about making McDonalds pay their working $15 an hour? You would have to raise the minimum wage, as you cannot target Mcdonalds specifically.. raising the minimum wage would then effect all companies paying minimum wage >,<

And if you don't like their food then don't eat there, plenty of other people will. The beauty of freedom, no one is forcing you to eat their unhealthy food.

The thing about it is though, I think that the government, specifically a judicial ruling, could totally single out McDonald's. Why not? They can bailout huge companies, so why can't they impose a higher minimum wage law on one of the biggest corporations in the world that isn't fulfilling essential employee (one of your most important stakeholders in your company) needs.

Oh and believe me, I don't eat there. I think it's hilarious that you do, and I still have the right to call their food deplorable...because it is.

rj
09-28-2013, 07:16 PM
The thing about it is though, I think that the government, specifically a judicial ruling, could totally single out McDonald's. Why not? They can bailout huge companies, so why can't they impose a higher minimum wage law on one of the biggest corporations in the world that isn't fulfilling essential employee (one of your most important stakeholders in your company) needs.

Oh and believe me, I don't eat there. I think it's hilarious that you do, and I still have the right to call their food deplorable...because it is.

So your saying the US government can specifically force McDonalds to pay $15 an hour, but not Burger king, Wendy's and every other fast food restaurant?
No. On what grounds can they specifically make *only* Mcdonalds pay their workers $15 an hour? There seem to be plenty of people willing to work for half of that..

haiku
09-28-2013, 07:39 PM
So your saying the US government can specifically force McDonalds to pay $15 an hour, but not Burger king, Wendy's and every other fast food restaurant?
No. On what grounds can they specifically make *only* Mcdonalds pay their workers $15 an hour? There seem to be plenty of people willing to work for half of that..

The grounds would be on the horrible working conditions it sounds like the employees have. And using it as punishment would set the example to other companies that they won't tolerate what Mcdonald's did. Just like the set an example for other companies to get bailed out...

rj
09-28-2013, 07:50 PM
The grounds would be on the horrible working conditions it sounds like the employees have. And using it as punishment would set the example to other companies that they won't tolerate what Mcdonald's did. Just like the set an example for other companies to get bailed out...

So the US government should "punish" Mcdonalds for paying their workers $7.25 an hour right?

Ok, so please, open up a restaurant, pay your workers $15 an hour and tell me how successful your restaurant is.

It's basic economics, the supply of "unskilled" workers is high, therefor the pay will not be high. Every one of these protesters could quit in a single day and be replaced within a day. Why? Because

the supply of "unskilled" workers is high

Solution: Getting involved in a job that requires some sort of education or trade, thus you not being completely expendable.

haiku
09-28-2013, 08:02 PM
Yes punishment for that coupled with the horrible working conditions... And the solution would be to treat your workers better, and not just so they don't have a mass protest against you and you getting a huge settlement of punitive damages on your hands, but because they are, essentially, the organization.
Don't worry though...McDonald's has a couple lawyers... You guys ever heard of the woman that spilled coffee on herself and sued? Of course you have... Did you ever pictures of the huge 3rd degree burns on her lap, of course not. That's because McDonald's used this case to spur an astroturf (fake grass-roots) movement of workers and businesses against fraudulent lawsuits... This is from a documentary on Netflix called HOT COFFEE by the way.
Alright I've expressed my opnions... I'm kind of tired of arguing against you lol.

rj
09-28-2013, 08:23 PM
Yes punishment for that coupled with the horrible working conditions... And the solution would be to treat your workers better, and not just so they don't have a mass protest against you and you getting a huge settlement of punitive damages on your hands, but because they are, essentially, the organization.
Don't worry though...McDonald's has a couple lawyers... You guys ever heard of the woman that spilled coffee on herself and sued? Of course you have... Did you ever pictures of the huge 3rd degree burns on her lap, of course not. That's because McDonald's used this case to spur an astroturf (fake grass-roots) movement of workers and businesses against fraudulent lawsuits... This is from a documentary on Netflix called HOT COFFEE by the way.
Alright I've expressed my opnions... I'm kind of tired of arguing against you lol.
Yea, she won the lawsuit. Not sure how it was Mcdonald's fault that she spilled her *hot* coffee what whatever.. And your proposition is stupid on so many levels. Some people with degrees don't even earn $15 an hour (which is around $30,000 a year). So somebody with no degree, no skills should be earning as much as a teacher (which by the way requires actual skills)?

And of course your avoiding my proposition: Open up a restaurant and pay your employees $15 an hour. *Actually laughing right now* let's see how much profit you make, you will probably end up making less then Mcdonalds workers do now if you don't end up running out of business.

You don't get anywhere in life staying stagnant at an entry level job. Get with the program.

Since you seem to lack basic knowledge about a free market here a link to a guide: http://www.freemarketprinciples.com/principles.php

1) Individual Rights: "We are each created with equal individual rights to control and to defend our life, liberty and property and to voluntary contractual exchange."
2) Limited Government: "Governments are instituted only to secure individual rights, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

3) Equal Justice Under Law: "Government must treat everyone equally; neither rewarding failure nor punishing success."

4) Subsidiarity: "Government authority must reside at the lowest feasible level."

5) Spontaneous Order: "When individual rights are respected, unregulated competition will maximize economic benefit for society by providing the most goods and services possible at the lowest cost."

6) Property Rights: "Private ownership is the most efficient way to sustainability utilize resources."

7) The Golden Rule: "Deal with others honestly and require honesty in return."

haiku
09-28-2013, 09:52 PM
Lawlawlawl. We have some fundamentally different views man and we have to accept them...
Capitalism and democracy are not synonymous.

Also, she won the lawsuit, but they used the case as an example to pass limits on damages awarded to people to stop "fraudulent lawsuits" when really she had a legitimate case because the mcdonalds coffee used to be stored at some ridiculous temperature like 180 degrees or something.

rj
09-29-2013, 02:03 AM
Also, she won the lawsuit, but they used the case as an example to pass limits on damages awarded to people to stop "fraudulent lawsuits" when really she had a legitimate case because the mcdonalds coffee used to be stored at some ridiculous temperature like 180 degrees or something.

So if I go buy a Toyota Tundra tomorrow and then wreck it on the way out of the parking lot and seriously injure myself, is it Toyota's fault for having too powerful of an engine in that car?

Entitlement mentality gone wrong.

haiku
09-29-2013, 03:30 AM
So if I go buy a Toyota Tundra tomorrow and then wreck it on the way out of the parking lot and seriously injure myself, is it Toyota's fault for having too powerful of an engine in that car?

Entitlement mentality gone wrong.

...just watch the documentary dude. The coffee was at an unnecessarily hot holding temperature was the court ruling. And your other little example isn't applicable to the other situation. You've basically been enculturated by the fraudulent lawsuit movements I've mentioned before or else you're just dead set on arguing my every post.

rj
09-29-2013, 12:59 PM
...just watch the documentary dude. The coffee was at an unnecessarily hot holding temperature was the court ruling. And your other little example isn't applicable to the other situation. You've basically been enculturated by the fraudulent lawsuit movements I've mentioned before or else you're just dead set on arguing my every post.

I have seen it before in school. You don't go and buy coffee and expect it to be cold bro.

Way off topic anyway, let's get back to that successful fast food restaurant your going to open and pay your workers $15 an hour.

haiku
09-29-2013, 04:00 PM
Lol? They showed it to you in school? Doubt it bro... Considering it was released in 2011 I can actually guarantee you are lying to prove your point again. And that small business proposition you keep berating me about to answer, again just doesn't make sense on so many levels... My point seems clear enough so I'm gonna leave it at that instead of stooping to your 12-year old, societized sense of logic. I mean seriously, it's like I'm arguing with kid here.

rj
09-29-2013, 04:16 PM
Lol? They showed it to you in school? Doubt it bro... Considering it was released in 2011 I can actually guarantee you are lying to prove your point again. And that small business proposition you keep berating me about to answer, again just doesn't make sense on so many levels... My point seems clear enough so I'm gonna leave it at that instead of stooping to your 12-year old, societized sense of logic. I mean seriously, it's like I'm arguing with kid here.

You think that a business will profit by paying people $15 for unskilled work. Also

http://i.imgur.com/0B0lMSr.png


Considering it was released in 2011

I didn't say I saw your documentary, I have heard of the case which was in 1994



Please o Please tell me how anyone will profit off a fast food restaurant paying their workers $15 an hour, I want to know your secret

haiku
09-29-2013, 05:42 PM
I have seen it before in school.

Good one.

Oh yea, and I apologize for attacking you, Officer Brady. And you're completely right, I can't explain how I would open a business and pay my unskilled workers $15/hour...but McDonald's could...which is the heart of my whole argument and I'm sure any user who's browsing this thread can clearly see I've demonstrated.

Sjoe
09-29-2013, 05:44 PM
Good one.

Oh yea, and I apologize for attacking you, Officer Brady. And you're completely right, I can't explain how I would open a business and pay my unskilled workers $15/hour...but McDonald's could...which is the heart of my whole argument and I'm sure any user who's browsing this thread can clearly see I've demonstrated.

Why would they, less money for them.
That's just the way this world works mate.

Eejit
04-28-2014, 09:48 PM
Their current wage is great compared to most countries. McDonalds workers should be happy to have the jobs they have.

Brandon
04-29-2014, 01:14 AM
Their current wage is great compared to most countries. McDonalds workers should be happy to have the jobs they have.

Nice bump.. but the wage in the US is bad still.. The minimum wage here in Canada (US' neighbour to the north) is:

$11.00 an hour generally and $12.10 an hour for homeworkers.

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/minwage.php

It rises almost every year or few months. I have a friend here working at McDonalds (first job) makes $13.25 an hour for doing cashier and helping out with other tasks whenever.




Since you seem to lack basic knowledge about a free market here a link to a guide: http://www.freemarketprinciples.com/principles.php

1) Individual Rights: "We are each created with equal individual rights to control and to defend our life, liberty and property and to voluntary contractual exchange."
2) Limited Government: "Governments are instituted only to secure individual rights, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

3) Equal Justice Under Law: "Government must treat everyone equally; neither rewarding failure nor punishing success."

4) Subsidiarity: "Government authority must reside at the lowest feasible level."

5) Spontaneous Order: "When individual rights are respected, unregulated competition will maximize economic benefit for society by providing the most goods and services possible at the lowest cost."

6) Property Rights: "Private ownership is the most efficient way to sustainability utilize resources."

7) The Golden Rule: "Deal with others honestly and require honesty in return."


None of these actually matter when the government gets involved. Specifically #3 (http://villavu.com/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) .. Why? Well..

Roosevelt's 1935 tax increase raised the top rate to 79%.. John D. Rockefeller was the only man who actually had to pay it because his income was actually over the 5$ million.. Everyone else had lower incomes and didn't have to pay that much taxes. He was still and probably still is the richest man to have ever existed.

Top of page 39:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uraZdjDQ2egC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=revenue+act+of+1935+john+d+rockefeller&source=bl&ots=Mo8REB9tRM&sig=VcIjsEJE3wuEyEV-bPpYxvZo0Is&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OQBfU5jgJae-2AWD64GwAw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=revenue%20act%20of%201935%20john%20d%20rockefell er&f=false


Next is France: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/france-passes-75-millionaire-s-tax-1.2478390 75% tax if you 1m+ euros a year.

Kasi
04-29-2014, 01:43 AM
Brandon; 59% of his total posts have been within the last day. i think he's trying to get junior members or something.

Kyle
04-29-2014, 01:44 AM
Nice bump.. but the wage in the US is bad still.. The minimum wage here in Canada (US' neighbour to the north) is:

$11.00 an hour generally and $12.10 an hour for homeworkers.



Yes, but notice how much more inflated the Canadian currency is compared to the USD. It all works out in the wash. At the end of the day, what Robert has said has to be true and always will be in a developed country. The more you increase minimum wage, the more the cost of everything goes up, so no matter what, people getting paid the minimum will always be making proportionally the same amount. That's what keeps everything in line, supply & demand.

Brandon
04-29-2014, 02:32 AM
Yes, but notice how much more inflated the Canadian currency is compared to the USD. It all works out in the wash. At the end of the day, what Robert has said has to be true and always will be in a developed country. The more you increase minimum wage, the more the cost of everything goes up, so no matter what, people getting paid the minimum will always be making proportionally the same amount. That's what keeps everything in line, supply & demand.

How is it inflated? You judge by the price of everyday items:

US:

Milk (regular), (1 liter) 0.99 $
Loaf of Fresh White Bread (500g) 2.39 $
Rice (white), (1kg) 2.89 $
Eggs (12) 2.25 $
Local Cheese (1kg) 9.49 $


Canada:

Milk (regular), (1 liter) 2.01 C$
Loaf of Fresh White Bread (500g) 2.74 C$
Rice (white), (1kg) 3.66 C$
Eggs (12) 3.25 C$
Local Cheese (1kg) 11.84 C$


Consider those prices.. Now consider that you make $13.25/hr (avg) or even $11.00/hr (min). Considering the average cost of the food products are roughly 1.0 - 1.50$ more at most in Canada, who exactly is inflated? Your stuff costs almost the same price as ours.. You make $7.50/hr. The extra $4-5/hr helps.

An apartment in Toronto, ON (a fairly popular city) costs a lot less than one in Manhattan, NY (a fairly popular city). I'm not saying he/she's wrong.. I'm saying it is pretty low.

Ian
04-29-2014, 02:42 AM
Yes, but notice how much more inflated the Canadian currency is compared to the USD. It all works out in the wash. At the end of the day, what Robert has said has to be true and always will be in a developed country. The more you increase minimum wage, the more the cost of everything goes up, so no matter what, people getting paid the minimum will always be making proportionally the same amount. That's what keeps everything in line, supply & demand.
And what would happen if the minimum wage went down? (Hypothetically ofc, because I don't see any politicials saying this)

Would businesses say "Oh look at all this extra money we have in our budget now, let's reduce all of our prices so that we make the same amount of money as we did with the old wages!"?

Or would they say "Now that we can pay our employees less we can make more money than we ever have before!"?

Gunner
05-13-2014, 05:44 AM
In discussions like this, I see a lot of statements either implying or directly stating that the people working these jobs just need to get an education, get a better job, and quit complaining about their income level.

The response to this implication is summed up in one quote, and I don't remember the actual author or exact wording, but it says: "If EVERYONE got a PhD, we would still need people to deliver our pizzas, work our grocery stores, take our fast food orders, and pump our gas. Just because you hold one of those jobs doesn't mean you deserve to live in poverty."

It is NOT possible for a single parent, or even two parents working minimum wage jobs to support any kind of lifestyle without some kind of assistance, and then you demonize them because they utilize foodstamps or welfare.

Not everyone is cut out to be a doctor, and for most people that has nothing to do with work ethic. The fact is, not everyone is afforded the same opportunities in life. And even the ones who ARE afforded those opportunities, not everyone WANTS to be a damn doctor or lawyer. Not everyone WANTS to drive a Ferrari and live in a mansion. They just want to live a happy, healthy life. Yet those people are snubbed and looked down on by the rest of society as "freeloaders" simply because they don't have some ridiculous desire to be rich and famous.

If minimum wage had stayed true to inflation, it would be over $20/hr, and we're demonizing people who make $7.25/hr while the corporations that they work for are turning $billions per quarter. And yes, mom and pop shops would struggle to pay employees that much money. Why? I'm going to put a spoiler in here because I can already tell that the tl;dr's are gonna berate me otherwise.

Because the major corporations have driven the prices so far into the ground that there is no profit margin for mom and pop's. Last I heard, and I have no direct source for this because it was disclosed in a business meeting in the company I worked for that dealt with Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart actually LOSES money on 7% of it's sales. While they lose a few pennies on the deodorant they sell you, they make twice as many pennies on the TV they sell you, and they make 3 more pennies on that hair drier. Added up across the millions of sales per day, you do the math. The major corporations deal in quantity, not quality. They drive the profit margins so low that no mom and pop can afford to pay more than $7.25/hr, and then, the corps that CAN afford to pay more don't have to. They only have to pay $7.26/hr and make you feel like they're doing you a favor. They're pissing on your back while telling you it's raining.

With all that being said, or not if you chose not to read it, we all need to quit looking down on people in low wage jobs. They are human beings just like you and I. They have the same responsibilities and wishes for a happy life as the rest of us. So quit treating them like they're scumbags because they drew the short straw.

/end rant

Truncheon
07-07-2014, 11:22 PM
When I was studying I landed my first flexijob at a McDonalds restaurant, which paid at the time £5/hour ($8.57). The people and banter were fantastic, great nights out etc - However the work is pure slavery.
They expect their workers to go on their breaks at the managers own accord, when the restaurant is not busy. On my days off college I would have worked from 4PM to 3.30AM with only a single half an hour break some days (Plus a short 5 minute smoke break at 12, Closing time).
I can't blame the workers demanding a higher wage, it certainly isn't an easy job. Especially when you're having to deal with food being thrown at you, being held up by someone with a machete and working 8-12 hour shifts while working 6-8 struggling hours without your break being given to you. (Based on my own experience, I'm sure others will vary)

It's a suitable job for a student, working short shifts that suit them- Which in respect to McDonalds, they do offer. However, for a full-time job this is a NO-GO and should be paid a lot higher than it currently is.

Now I work two jobs earning an average of what would be the equivalent to $25/hour, one of which is the police force - Having to deal with fatalities, giving out bad news, criminals and my other part time job includes working labour. Both jobs are less mentally straining that working at McDonalds restaurants.

rj
07-08-2014, 12:58 AM
When I was studying I landed my first flexijob at a McDonalds restaurant, which paid at the time £5/hour ($8.57). The people and banter were fantastic, great nights out etc - However the work is pure slavery.
They expect their workers to go on their breaks at the managers own accord, when the restaurant is not busy. On my days off college I would have worked from 4PM to 3.30AM with only a single half an hour break some days (Plus a short 5 minute smoke break at 12, Closing time).
I can't blame the workers demanding a higher wage, it certainly isn't an easy job. Especially when you're having to deal with food being thrown at you, being held up by someone with a machete and working 8-12 hour shifts while working 6-8 struggling hours without your break being given to you. (Based on my own experience, I'm sure others will vary)

It's a suitable job for a student, working short shifts that suit them- Which in respect to McDonalds, they do offer. However, for a full-time job this is a NO-GO and should be paid a lot higher than it currently is.

Now I work two jobs earning an average of what would be the equivalent to $25/hour, one of which is the police force - Having to deal with fatalities, giving out bad news, criminals and my other part time job includes working labour. Both jobs are less mentally straining that working at McDonalds restaurants.


Should a company be responsible for paying the employees a wage that the employee needs?

footballjds
07-08-2014, 02:14 PM
Should a company be responsible for paying the employees a wage that the employee needs?
Should the employees be responsible for finding a job that suits them better instead of complaining that something you could train a chimpanzee to do pays poorly?




Working fast food sucks, I took a second job on top of my IT job to make extra money at Wendys. I didn't want to work there, I used it as a "motivator" for my boss who immediately gave me a $3 raise and told me to work as much overtime as i want.

I'm not a genius but I have a set of skills that I'm continuing to develop which will make me more and more valuable in my field.

Please tell me how a 30 year career of burger flipping can make you "more valuable" to anyone? Unless ofc your wife likes mcPattys and is a mcFatty

Enslaved
07-08-2014, 02:41 PM
If you dont like the wage, don't work there. Its a pure labour market monopsony model, to weaken the monopsony power all you have to do is lower the supply of the workers, and in response they would have to offer an increased total payment package (pecuniary and non pecuniary) in order to maintain operation. Basic economics :p. Anyway, this is economics, who gives a shit about employees as long as you make more money, the only reason people treat their employees better is because they tend to be more productive and as a result Unit Labour Costs actually fall. In other words, if you complain about the low pay, then dont work there.

Sin
07-08-2014, 03:56 PM
Anyway, this is economics, who gives a shit about employees as long as you make more money

Welcome to the world of business.

Wu-Tang Clan
07-08-2014, 05:36 PM
I have a similar job to a mcdonalds worker. In Canada the minimum wage is $11 something. I would have been okay with $10.25 (previous minimum wage). The job is not hard and personally it doesn't deserve anything above minimum wage. I don't see why the unskilled push for more than they deserve

Basic
07-08-2014, 05:56 PM
I currently work there. I don't think I deserve $15 an hour. I don't want the prices of burgers to rise then screw over a lot of mcdonalds' causing people to lose jobs and have my taxes pay for their unemployment because they don't want to find new jobs.

Incurable
09-06-2014, 07:16 AM
I know that this thread is actually pretty old, but the discussion has continued every few months, so I feel justified in posting.


If you dont like the wage, don't work there.

I'd just like to say that arguments like that really grind me the wrong way. Sometimes we don't have a choice, sometimes we just have to accept what we can find in order to get by. As Gunner said above, not everyone wants to go to university/college and become rich, and no matter what happens, someone has to do the regular jobs that no one else wants to do. It used to be the idea that unskilled, low wage jobs were meant for high school students and the like, but that is simply no longer applicable. The economy in the US is so bad that supposedly "unskilled" jobs are being filled by overqualified people who can't find a job anywhere else because there are none. Low-skilled jobs still require people to work full-time to, and those full-time workers aren't high school students, they're people old enough to be out of school who actually have bills to pay and mouths to feed. The minimum wage in the US is pathetic, and no one so far in this thread has actually made any decent argument for why it's acceptable.

As for a rise in minimum wage causing a rise in the cost of living that negates the minimum wage rise, that's just crap spouted by corporations and their political supporters with no basis in reality or historical precedent. Whenever the minimum wage in Australia has been raised, the cost of living has only increased by roughly 10-15% comparative to the wage increase. An item that may have cost $5 prior to the wage increase will cost $5.10 after it. Meanwhile, the minimum wage worker has more money to spend and uses that money to improve their standard of living, which then stimulates the economy and benefits the entire nation.

I'm not sure how many Aussies we have on this forum, but most of you will probably know anyway that Australia came out of the GFC almost unscathed. This was because the government at the time used the budget surplus to stimulate the economy and keep it going by giving a sum of money to every person that met certain criteria (the vast majority of the population). People didn't just save the money because they were worried about the GFC, they went out and spent it (as they were encouraged to do) which kept the economy alive. The point I'm making is that when people have money to spend on their quality of life, they spend it, and it has only positive affects on the economy.

Everybody wins.

cosmasjdz
09-06-2014, 07:25 AM
what a bs, i dont earn 26 dollar a day ........ I must feel like a chineese one now

Enslaved
09-11-2014, 11:33 AM
I know that this thread is actually pretty old, but the discussion has continued every few months, so I feel justified in posting.



I'd just like to say that arguments like that really grind me the wrong way. Sometimes we don't have a choice, sometimes we just have to accept what we can find in order to get by. As Gunner said above, not everyone wants to go to university/college and become rich, and no matter what happens, someone has to do the regular jobs that no one else wants to do. It used to be the idea that unskilled, low wage jobs were meant for high school students and the like, but that is simply no longer applicable. The economy in the US is so bad that supposedly "unskilled" jobs are being filled by overqualified people who can't find a job anywhere else because there are none. Low-skilled jobs still require people to work full-time to, and those full-time workers aren't high school students, they're people old enough to be out of school who actually have bills to pay and mouths to feed. The minimum wage in the US is pathetic, and no one so far in this thread has actually made any decent argument for why it's acceptable.

As for a rise in minimum wage causing a rise in the cost of living that negates the minimum wage rise, that's just crap spouted by corporations and their political supporters with no basis in reality or historical precedent. Whenever the minimum wage in Australia has been raised, the cost of living has only increased by roughly 10-15% comparative to the wage increase. An item that may have cost $5 prior to the wage increase will cost $5.10 after it. Meanwhile, the minimum wage worker has more money to spend and uses that money to improve their standard of living, which then stimulates the economy and benefits the entire nation.

I'm not sure how many Aussies we have on this forum, but most of you will probably know anyway that Australia came out of the GFC almost unscathed. This was because the government at the time used the budget surplus to stimulate the economy and keep it going by giving a sum of money to every person that met certain criteria (the vast majority of the population). People didn't just save the money because they were worried about the GFC, they went out and spent it (as they were encouraged to do) which kept the economy alive. The point I'm making is that when people have money to spend on their quality of life, they spend it, and it has only positive affects on the economy.

Everybody wins.

Please get your economics right, one does not just use a budget surplus to stimulate the economy - having the money to do so does not require a budget surplus. It was stupid giving straight money away, at the time the MPS (even though they were encouraged, they wouldn't unless they were downright stupid) would be too great as a result net fiscal stimulus may be worth less than what was put in. It would have been much better to increase welfare, improve quantitative easing and reduce interest rates whilst setting the money that was to be given away as an investment opportunity where it can be used to create new businesses. This in turn provides jobs and improves confidence even more, with greater confidence, MPS falls and you will get increased multiplier. Minimal wage should not be increased, it would be much better to make the country more competitive at a cost to standards of living in a very short period of time. It is job stability that will increase confidence not a one off bonus that you will never see again with the possibility that you will lose your job the very next day.

Incurable
09-11-2014, 01:15 PM
Please get your economics right, one does not just use a budget surplus to stimulate the economy - having the money to do so does not require a budget surplus. It was stupid giving straight money away, at the time the MPS (even though they were encouraged, they wouldn't unless they were downright stupid) would be too great as a result net fiscal stimulus may be worth less than what was put in. It would have been much better to increase welfare, improve quantitative easing and reduce interest rates whilst setting the money that was to be given away as an investment opportunity where it can be used to create new businesses. This in turn provides jobs and improves confidence even more, with greater confidence, MPS falls and you will get increased multiplier. Minimal wage should not be increased, it would be much better to make the country more competitive at a cost to standards of living in a very short period of time. It is job stability that will increase confidence not a one off bonus that you will never see again with the possibility that you will lose your job the very next day.

Another Aussie, woo!

First off, I'm just going to openly admit that I feel like you've studied economics a hell of a lot more than me, but from my understanding of the Labor government's response to the GFC, the stimulus packages did in fact help Australia to avoid recession, keep the economy in growth, and kept unemployment figures down. Australia did incredibly well during the GFC and that was because of the budget surplus being used to stimulate the economy. It's probably arguable that the policy was the best choice at the time, and I don't know enough to argue that it was, but the policies were praised by both the IMF and OECD for their success. The stimulus packages did exactly what they were supposed to do and it stopped Australia from going into recession.

Regardless, I'm not trying to argue the choices made by the Rudd government, I just think it's a good example of the point I was trying to make: that when people have money, they spend it. It doesn't matter whether that money comes from a stimulus package or an increase in minimum wage, when people have money to spend, the economy grows, and unemployment stays down.

EDIT: If you feel as though I don't know enough to be able to have a proper discussion with me, feel free to say it. I'm not opposed to being told that I have to learn more in order to properly understand a topic of debate.

Enslaved
09-11-2014, 03:29 PM
Im not an aussie. And the IMF praises everyone lol. It even praised Latvia for running itself like a 3rd world country from excessive internal devaluation when it had a tied currency ( it was the only viable option) but it still make the country a depressing place to be and all the skilled workers to migrate out the country to make it even more of a shithole than it already is.

Incurable
09-11-2014, 03:57 PM
Im not an aussie.

Oops sorry, I figured you were since you knew so much about Labor's stimulus package. :p


And the IMF praises everyone lol. It even praised Latvia for running itself like a 3rd world country from excessive internal devaluation when it had a tied currency ( it was the only viable option) but it still make the country a depressing place to be and all the skilled workers to migrate out the country to make it even more of a shithole than it already is.

I know very little about Latvia, and nothing of its economy. I'll take your word for it.

superuser
09-11-2014, 08:12 PM
Good ol' capitalism. The working class are paid to produce goods and services which are then sold for a profit. The profit is gained by the capitalists because they can make more money selling what working class have produced than working class cost to buy on the labour market. So, in that sense, 15$/h is overkill. Gotta have more profit. Always profit.

http://cdn-media.extratv.com/2012/10/16/donald-trump-1200x630.jpg