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lardmaster
11-01-2006, 12:49 AM
...relegeon is the worst thing to talk about, except maybe politics (hmm, maybe ill make a poll about capitalim, communism and fascism)...

well, i beat him to it! :spot: :spot:

people will probably start flaming me for bringing up contoversial topics :D

personally, im a socialist guy

(ps, no posts like "those @#$% commies are gonna die!")

ruler
11-01-2006, 01:53 AM
What is the point in getting a good education under socialism, the rewards are diminished.

I dont want to pay for other peoples healthcare much less cost of living.
food stamps for illiegals. free education, free health for illegalsAll these programs just make it cheaper for business to use illegals instead of hiring high pay technicans and making robots or better tools.

You young kids are always idealistic that is until you have a income.

Boreas
11-01-2006, 03:52 AM
In a perfect world they all are good. If reality was theory to the letter I wouldn't mind living in any of them. However they all have a common thread, humans. Every system gets screwed up and causes the pros and cons. They all suck, so we deal with it and get on with life.

Pyro
11-01-2006, 07:46 AM
No one country is fully one or the other though. For example. Take New Zealand (and maybe US i dunno i dont live there :p). One of the parts to being communist country is that there is state owned enterprises. Well about every country in the world has this.

Communism looks awesome on paper. Free everything, no poor people. But really. Would you give your money away to some lazy arse.

Yakman
11-01-2006, 11:39 AM
my avatar says it all (Che Guevara in case you dont know)

i agree communism isnt as good at it is on paper, but i think it should have reforms, like China seems to be socialism with elements of capitalism.

i live in England now, but my parents are from croatia, during the cold war everyone got a free education, my parents went to university and got a degree in economics, they got a job and England and moved here.

if it wasnt for socialism in my country, i would probably be an illitarate farmer, working all day for peanuts.

communism gave me a chance, i belive in it for that reason.

to the people who say they dont like paying for others, this already happens in England, there is a welfare state, some taxes go to pay for hospitals and schools. there is a Labour government in power, and has been for about 10 years, its basicly socialist.

i dont think communism will happen NOW, but in perhaps 100 years or so, the workers will get angry and rise up.

also Cuba has 97% literacy, not bad for a 3rd/2nd world country, America has 99%, only 2% more

this thread will last for ages, a lot of people will have they say and there will be large arguments, it bet it will be almost as bad as the gay rights thread on MoparIsTheBest

dingo
11-01-2006, 03:08 PM
I think Socialism is the best system, everyone has enough money but the people who work the hardest get more than those who don't as it isn't as extreme as Communisim. Currently Britain is a Socialist-Capitalist country with the Labour party in Government.

Sumilion
11-01-2006, 04:13 PM
Lol, gay rights thread :p, the moment i saw this thread i though that Yakman made it :p surprise surprise, he didnt :eek: . We had pretty long talks about this one msn :(

But Yakman, im very happy for you that you got a chance, but (im going to make a weird comment now :p) the way you say it it seems to me that croatia was a Tutorial Island for your parents and that england is the rest. You can't get rich on tut island, you just can't, but you can sell lots of stuff in varrock, see my point? Hope you dont get mad at me for this ;)

(i can't say much about socialism or facism :p cuz i don't know much about them, not that i know much about capitalism/communism, but this is my judgement)
(biggest) Downside about capitalism i can think of :
- The rich get richer and the poor get more poor
(biggest) Downside of communism i can think of :
- Why do hard jobs when you get the same amount of money for it ? (why mine rune when clay gets me the same amount)

tarajunky
11-01-2006, 05:10 PM
When you talk about 'reform' in China, it is usually about how to discriminate against people and deny them the supposed benefits of communism rather than the other way around. I mean they force you to have only 1 child. If you do otherwise, like many 'uneducated farmers' do, you are thrown out of society. If you have a family of 10 kids, the state will only educate the first one. The rest get nothing. And of course, they don't have a 'communist' style of education where anybody can be anything they want. They are quick to eliminate those that fall behind in their education, and prevent them from continuing on past high school equivalence. Sure, your 1 child out of the 10 may be 'literate' but that doesn't do you much good when you are ostracized from society.

Communism is often presented as a system where the people and the workers are supreme. In fact it is exactly the opposite. The state is supreme, and the people are nothing. There is a huge ongoing fued between China and South Korea. The people of South Korea are very wealthy, and the people of China of course are not. There was once an encounter between and SK diplomat and a Chinese diplomat where they guy from SK handed the Chinese guy an apple and asked him if he had ever seen one before, implying that China is too poor to afford apples. The Chinese diplomat was outraged, and said that they have EVERYTHING that South Korea does, except for the US troops. And it may be true that there are apples in China, but they are only available to those running the government. The average person could not get an apple if they wanted one. Apples are deemed unnecessary by the government, so they are not made available. Again, the state is supreme, and apples are not in the interest of the state, so they are not available to the individual.

Even in Cuba the people are repressed. Again, what good does it do you to be literate, or even to be highly educated and become a neurosurgeon when the guy working at the local hotel carrying bags for rich travelers makes 10 times more than you in tips every month? It rewards those that leech off more prosperous countries in service industries rather than those that have very specialized knowledge and skills.

I believe that if you try to treat everyone equally, you can only do so by repressing and punishing the highest achievers. You simply cannot raise the bar for everyone and expect the least intelligent and least motivated person to suddenly become something they are not. It would be like forcing every student to take special ed classes so that nobody feels bad about being dumber than average. Sure, you might help the dumb students feel better about themselves, but you are repressing those with great ability. You are forcing the lowest common demoninator on everyone. You can't try to put every student into the advanced classes because, frankly, most students have a hard enough time with the regular curriculum without having even more expected of them. Anybody can dig ditches, but not everybody can be a scientist or a doctor or an electrical engineer.

Communism stifles creativity and ability for that very reason. In order to pursue equality you need to repress the overachievers.

Yakman
11-01-2006, 05:14 PM
no im not mad about the tutorial island thing.

...but, you do get paid more if you a different job, if anything, you get paid more than in a capitalist country because the company owner gets a lower share. when communism says equality in pay, it means that the factory owner doesnt get most of the mone for doing nothing.

by the way, the communism that Karl Marx talks about will never work, people always think they deserve more than others, thats why im talking about reforms.

also, that gay rights thread on Mopars is a copy of a thread that was on Kaitnieks, so its been around for a very long time.

lardmaster
11-01-2006, 10:50 PM
i believe that there should be some capitolist ideals, like you earn money based on what job you have. but i believe their should be enough government support that NO-ONE goes hungry. what is bad about a free for all capitolist society is that if you are poor, there is no way you can become well off. i believe all absolute necesetys should be provided by the government, but YOU pay for the luxuries.

tarajunky
11-02-2006, 02:49 AM
i believe that there should be some capitolist ideals, like you earn money based on what job you have. but i believe their should be enough government support that NO-ONE goes hungry. what is bad about a free for all capitolist society is that if you are poor, there is no way you can become well off. i believe all absolute necesetys should be provided by the government, but YOU pay for the luxuries.

The funny thing about your statement is that the US has now taken a NEW approach to economic sanctions. For decades the US has blocked import of American corn, American wheat, American technology, etc, the fundamental stuff that allows a country to develop and prosper. They were often criticized because people argued that these sanctions only hurt the common people and did not affect the ruling class. Now with North Korea (Communist, remember) acting up, the US has instead placed embargoes on LUXURY items, like fancy cars and gold watches and expensive cigars, etc. This has no negative impact on the working class whatsoever, but puts a bigtime cramp in the lifestyle of the ruling class. Kim Jong Il immediately responded that these new sanctions were an act of WAR on his country, lol.

He is a bigtime cigar afficionado, so now that he can't get them he's calling it an act of war.

Under communism the state is supreme. After all, communism cannot function without the state to administer it. So, any threats to the state are viewed as a threat to the people themselves. And then of course, when you have a leader that becomes a figurehead of the state, that leader now becomes supreme. Any threat to the leader becomes a threat to the state, which is then a threat to the common people toiling in the fields. That's why Communism is so often associated with despotic dictators. They rule supreme due to the usurpation of the supremacy of the common man under the Communist philosophy.

ruler
11-02-2006, 03:39 AM
i believe that there should be some capitolist ideals, like you earn money based on what job you have. but i believe their should be enough government support that NO-ONE goes hungry. what is bad about a free for all capitolist society is that if you are poor, there is no way you can become well off. i believe all absolute necesetys should be provided by the government, but YOU pay for the luxuries.
thus tons of illegal aliens.... food should not be free unless your disabled.

Yakman
11-02-2006, 04:33 PM
thus tons of illegal aliens.... food should not be free unless your disabled.

how about a system of identity cards, i know you may acossiate it with dictatorships, but britain is considering introducing them due to the 'terroist threat' and identity fraud

basicly you get an identity card like a passport, and you have to have one for the state benifits, im quite sure an illigal imigrant cannot get an identity card, especially if they have some microchip in them

British passports have microchips, mines has which i renewed a few weeks ago

lardmaster
11-02-2006, 04:42 PM
no, food should not be free if you are not working. what i mean by working is working well enough that in a purely capitolist society you would be earning pay.

tarajunky-- i believe you have fallen into a misconception about socialism and communism that almost everyone has. i hate it when people say "they dont have a democracy, they have communism" or whatever. communism/socialism does NOT MEAN A DICTATORSHIP! ever heard of the american socialist party? did they want a dictatorship? no! however, during the cold war, they were pretty much wiped out :(. you say that the government must be absolutely supreme in a socialist government. however, currently, every government around the world taxes thier citizens. are you saying that they must be supreme? well, they are! any government in power must be to not have a rebellion every few months! are you saying that that united states police (or the police where you live, if not in the US), do not hold athority? about the kim jung il thing, thats hilarious, but i dont quite see how that is a response to what i said.

ps. who is the fascist???? i put it in as a joke! and tarajunky, it is funny to see how we have such opposite views :) no hard feelings though!

Ruroken
11-02-2006, 08:35 PM
communism looks great in theory but democracy is the only way to go. Canadian democracy. Not American democracy (forgive me all you Americans, its the governments fault, not yours :p) . America has become a unhealthy mix of democracy and capitalism.

ruler
11-02-2006, 09:28 PM
communism looks great in theory but democracy is the only way to go. Canadian democracy. Not American democracy (forgive me all you Americans, its the governments fault, not yours :p) . America has become a unhealthy mix of democracy and capitalism.
Only thing keeping Canda going is their vast amount of resources which US buys. Canada stops immigration, that how they survive if they had illegals coming in like the us their system would collapse. US accepts lower min wages unlike all the socialist countries like euro and canada etc. Thye cost of living is further reduces by big box retailers like wal-mart.

As for communist China:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/02/business/AS_FIN_China_Forbes_Rich_List.php
hahaha

Also what made russia fall? corruption! What brought food back into russia supermarkets? captialism.

CamHart
11-04-2006, 03:14 PM
Capitalism works the best due to the current nature of man.

lardmaster
11-04-2006, 04:21 PM
communism looks great in theory but democracy is the only way to go.
apparently you didnt read my last post. i was just talking about how evreyone thinks that comunism means no democracy, which is completely wrong, the reason past communisms have failed, is that they were all dictatorships. communism gives the government a lot of power, so the government must pbe chosen by the peolpe, or it will not work out.

botmaster
11-04-2006, 08:57 PM
Now with North Korea (Communist, remember) acting up, the US has instead placed embargoes on LUXURY items, like fancy cars and gold watches and expensive cigars, etc. This has no negative impact on the working class whatsoever, but puts a bigtime cramp in the lifestyle of the ruling class. Kim Jong Il immediately responded that these new sanctions were an act of WAR on his country, lol.

He is a bigtime cigar afficionado, so now that he can't get them he's calling it an act of war.



ROFL!!! Thats so Kim Jong... What an idiot.

Its socialism for me, cause EVERYONE starts out the same. RuneScape is socialism, cause once you get off tutorial island, you have the same equipment as every other n00b.

In Socialism, what matters is not that everyone is equal - its that you have the same chances as everyone else and what you make of your life.

Sure, socialism does have disadvantages. You pay state care for some idiots that don't get their ***es to work, just so they can afford a cheap appartement and some food. But at least you can be sure that if you fail or loose your job, your kids won't have to work as beggars.

In the states for example, capitalism has led to some people never getting the chance to enjoy life, because the lower class has almost no chances of getting out of their situation of monetary need. In a socialist environment, they would have the ability to start out as equals - not rich, but with basic needs. Then they get the chance to make something of their lives cause at least they got an education.

Off topic, but certainly noteworthy: Lots of geniuses have been wasted, because they never got the education they deserved - to be exact, 2/3 of the current world population are an unused resource of brains.

Ruroken
11-05-2006, 12:36 AM
Only thing keeping Canda going is their vast amount of resources which US buys. Canada stops immigration, that how they survive if they had illegals coming in like the us their system would collapse. US accepts lower min wages unlike all the socialist countries like euro and canada etc. Thye cost of living is further reduces by big box retailers like wal-mart..

Wait....WE STOP IMMIGRATION?? 92% of Canadians are immigrants.....

CamHart
11-05-2006, 07:10 AM
no, food should not be free if you are not working. what i mean by working is working well enough that in a purely capitolist society you would be earning pay.

tarajunky-- i believe you have fallen into a misconception about socialism and communism that almost everyone has. i hate it when people say "they dont have a democracy, they have communism" or whatever. communism/socialism does NOT MEAN A DICTATORSHIP! ever heard of the american socialist party? did they want a dictatorship? no! however, during the cold war, they were pretty much wiped out :(. you say that the government must be absolutely supreme in a socialist government. however, currently, every government around the world taxes thier citizens. are you saying that they must be supreme? well, they are! any government in power must be to not have a rebellion every few months! are you saying that that united states police (or the police where you live, if not in the US), do not hold athority? about the kim jung il thing, thats hilarious, but i dont quite see how that is a response to what i said.

ps. who is the fascist???? i put it in as a joke! and tarajunky, it is funny to see how we have such opposite views :) no hard feelings though!
In order for the idea communist society to appear, there must be a set person, or people, in place at the start who have power over others. Then those people in power need to willingly give up their power once they see their time and job being complete. Communism (atleast Marxism) is unique because there are evolutions of it that share traits of an anarchist and communist society.

Ideally the final stage in Marxism is what i would like to live under. But it is impossible to achieve because humans become corrupt.

lardmaster
11-05-2006, 07:21 PM
yeah, who wants to give up power? put some how tons of presidents have done it when thier terms ended, in fact, all of them! if you start with a dictatorship, they will not give up thier power, but you do not have to.