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View Full Version : Random mouse movements / human wandering is all unessesary



sythe
12-15-2006, 09:53 AM
Has it occurred to any of you that recording every single mouse movement of every single player and analyzing it in near real-time would take an astronomical amount of processing power?

In addition many players play on a laptop, in which case their mouse movements will look much like scar's.

In my experience mouse movement has little to do with the ban process. I do however believe they record each click, and possibly the colour of the pixel under the click. They may also record information such as idle login time.

I see no reason to waste CPU cycles randomly moving the mouse around the screen when it is apparent that they are not recording it.

WT-Fakawi
12-15-2006, 10:15 AM
Isn't there a diffrence between a blackmarked (flagged) account and a regular account in terms of Jagex monitoring?

True, they monitor mouseclicks and keystrokes and thus the color underneath the click and the heading of the compass. And when you manually logout, a report of your past activities can be (is?) sent to the Jagex servers.

In my script I hardly do any "AntiBan". It has never lead to any bans from one of my Players afaik.

I have always thought that once your Account is flagged, not only the mouseclicks, but also the mousemovements are sent to the Jagex servers, allthough I understand that in terms of serverload it would put it under an enormeous strain. Hovering over a client (not clicking) does log you out under normal circumstances, but not with all my Players :)

Lorax
12-15-2006, 11:49 AM
I think that we should be on the safe side :)
I believe in the idea Fawaki made that when you're flagged your movements are monitored..

Also when human wandering? You mean the walking procedures (A to B)? - that's just to not get reported/banned..

sythe
12-16-2006, 01:35 AM
I think the flagging may just be 'flagged for review'. I doubt that they record extra information at this time. Perhaps they simply do not delete already recorded information from their database when you are flagged.

If they ever did the logout reporting I believe they have stopped now. Logout seems more instantaneous than it was a couple of years ago, and I always use the button and my test accounts never get banned.

If I were jagex, at this point in time, I would base my bot detection on failure to repsond correctly to random events, total login time for any one session and abuse reports from users. In my mind any sort of serverside click analysis is completely out of the question. 2000 players per server, each probably clicking on average once every 10 - 15 seconds. We are talking complex analysis of 10000 clicks and their colour each second. You could easily store that much, but I don't think you could run realtime detection routins on that data, not while you are running a 3d game server on the same machine anyway.

Flyboy
12-16-2006, 02:02 AM
While thinking in terms of our home desktop computer... anyalising every click could be a bit taxing, however logging key spots where autoers frequent is quite possible without straining their system with periodic anyalizing of the data.

Through the use of statistics if given enough data once can quickly sort the difference between humans and bots... Human clicking has some unique characteristics which seperate them from most script clicking. Since for most of the developers here we find the challenge of merging our players as closly as we can to that of legit players, we should make every effort to be as human like in all our actions.

For this reason I am quite proud of a new inovation which will affect the characteristic of mouse movements (be in next release of SRL or one after that). The change will not be noticed by most people but it will screw up mouse detection via statistics as it blurrs the edges of possible clicking.

regecks
02-16-2007, 11:24 AM
I'm afraid I have to bump this thread.

I entirely agree with Sythe. At most, the client only records your mouse position every 50 milliseconds (this is a hardcoded restriction in the client), and that's when you don't have a queued load of mouse positions to send. These are sent at click time.

There is absolutely no way you are going to match any mouse algorithm by the information Jagex gets about your mouse movements. I think it has more to do with ensuring there is active mouse participation to match the player's activity (i.e, mouse isn't idle while the client is mining rocks ... )

As for the logout button, I (recently) debugged the entire stream class, and only a byte or two is sent on logout (0x** 00 00 00), so ...

When it comes to processing power, you have a point. However, consider the feat that jagex can ban based on drop trading, trading through pking, trading through dying to monsters ...

WT-Fakawi
02-17-2007, 09:39 PM
At most, the client only records your mouse position every 50 milliseconds (this is a hardcoded restriction in the client), and that's when you don't have a queued load of mouse positions to send. These are sent at click time.

Thats good news.. So all that "emulating humanlike mousemovements" is really unneccesary? Al long as you click within reasonable speed you are fine? So we can safely move the mouse at maxspeed over objects, provided we dont click? That would be good news for autofighters




As for the logout button, I (recently) debugged the entire stream class, and only a byte or two is sent on logout (0x** 00 00 00), so ...

Even better. You can logout and no info is sent, other than "CloseConnection" and stuff like that?

Sumilion
02-18-2007, 12:21 AM
This could be something innovative :p, Fakawi, why are you qouting regex while his name is regecks? Anyway, when mining rocks for example, you have to move your mouse for long distances some times. By then the rock can already be gone and if this is true you could just make it wait until the wait of the (not happening) movement is over, then search rocks and click immediately where there still is one :D awesome!

regecks
02-18-2007, 03:41 AM
So we can safely move the mouse at maxspeed over objects, provided we dont click? That would be good news for autofightersWell uh, that's up to yourselves to decide :P, but it'd be pretty difficult in any case for jagex to regress all of your movements.


Even better. You can logout and no info is sent, other than "CloseConnection" and stuff like that?As far as I can tell, yes.

whales
02-18-2007, 06:08 AM
When it comes to processing power, you have a point. However, consider the feat that jagex can ban based on drop trading, trading through pking, trading through dying to monsters ...
I know that they claim this but is it for sure true? I would think they must be checking IP's if they are banning this way..


But still if this is true this is huge. If this is so this could drastically change the way we cheat! Scripts would be 10 times as effective! No worrys about getting the location of a color or object or any other thing and then click and it has moved or disapeared!

WhiteShadow
02-18-2007, 06:58 AM
MouseSpeed := 6 ftw!

DaWu
02-18-2007, 08:49 AM
So now it doesn't matter if you use movemousesmooth and stuff ? :confused:
And you can run benmouse = false with maxspeed ?
Wow, if its so, then my autofighter is going to have a bigtime revamp.

whales
02-18-2007, 08:58 AM
It's not a fer sher but considering what has been stated in previous posts its a possibility. Based primarily off of Sythe's post they are saying that its not likely that Fagex is logging mouse movements, but they are logging clicks..

omgh4x0rz
02-19-2007, 01:14 AM
I think this pretty much answers the question if they send info when you click logout. It still doesn't tell us how much info actually get sent though.

http://www.srl-forums.com/forum/pointless-facts-runescape-p61904.html#post61904


If you gain experience and are in the high scores, your name on the high scores doesn't get updated until you log out

Smartzkid
02-19-2007, 01:36 AM
If I were jagex, at this point in time, I would base my bot detection on failure to repsond correctly to random events, total login time for any one session and abuse reports from users. In my mind any sort of serverside click analysis is completely out of the question. 2000 players per server, each probably clicking on average once every 10 - 15 seconds. We are talking complex analysis of 10000 clicks and their colour each second. You could easily store that much, but I don't think you could run realtime detection routins on that data, not while you are running a 3d game server on the same machine anyway.

Might I note that sometimes it can take 1-3 weeks for a ban to come after you've been macroing...That gives them 1-3 weeks to get to your bit of data and process it...

GoF
02-19-2007, 12:25 PM
Hm, i think that they possibly can detect movemousesmooth or something if they have any sort of automatic system for that.. like cursor just jumping from spot a to b without "actually moving" or moving in straight lines or movemousesmoothex when the mouse movements look a bit drunk.. But u can never know if we are overestimating the systems that jagex has..

Smartzkid
02-19-2007, 03:21 PM
Maybe we should come up with a script (something that will just make your char wander around randomly) to test what can and can't get you banned. We could have one version that uses movemouse, one with movemousesmooth, one with benmouse, etc etc. Then, whichever one gets banned first...

If we ran a few experiments: the above script, and some other scripts to test if they record what colors we click, etc, we could pretty well figure out how they're banning us

WT-Fakawi
02-19-2007, 03:35 PM
There is absolutely no way you are going to match any mouse algorithm by the information Jagex gets about your mouse movements. I think it has more to do with ensuring there is active mouse participation to match the player's activity (i.e, mouse isn't idle while the client is mining rocks ... )


But how come the client doesnt log you out when you simply hover over the mainscreen for a couple of minutes? Are the object descriptions (Top Left/Walk Here etc...) server sent?

cause
02-19-2007, 04:24 PM
But how come the client doesnt log you out when you simply hover over the mainscreen for a couple of minutes? Are the object descriptions (Top Left/Walk Here etc...) server sent?

That is very true, maybe its a client only trick, not sent to the server, or all that is sent to the server is to not log player out?

Boreas
02-20-2007, 05:23 AM
Whatever the outcome, I would rather overestimate them underestimate.

regecks
02-21-2007, 01:59 AM
But how come the client doesnt log you out when you simply hover over the mainscreen for a couple of minutes? Are the object descriptions (Top Left/Walk Here etc...) server sent?
Because mouseMoved now resets the logout timer.


public final synchronized void mouseMoved(MouseEvent mouseevent)
{
try
{
if(ja.a != null)
{
ie.o = 0;
df.y = mouseevent.getX();
qc.u = mouseevent.getY();

static final int a(byte byte0)
{
try
{
f++;
int i1 = 94 % ((byte0 - 12) / 36);
return ie.o++;
}
catch(RuntimeException runtimeexception)
{
throw id.a(runtimeexception, "nb.A(" + byte0 + ')');
}
}

int j2 = nb.a((byte)89);
int l2 = tc.e(2);
if(j2 > 4500 && l2 > 4500)
{
lc.e++;
e.mb = 250;
p.a(-103, 4000);
ie.l.j(8, 110);
}

As for menu actions, I believe the menu index of the action is sent when you actually do the action, but just hovering? No data as far as I can tell.

syberium
02-25-2007, 07:52 AM
A wiseman once said "It's better to overestimate and prepare for your opponent, then it is to underestimate and be defeated"

Iamadam
02-25-2007, 09:15 AM
I wouldn't go running around using mouseMouseSmooth, but the current splines are perfectly fine. I think they monitor mouse movements to detect repeated patterns. (Mouse moves to spot in bank, mouse moves to inventory, bank, inventory, etc.)

Flyboy
02-26-2007, 01:00 PM
The big question that I see comes to light is: Are we now saying that FindObjectSpirial is undetectable? With crazy color changes on the screen this might be a viable solution in a lot of cases.

lardmaster
02-26-2007, 08:36 PM
jagex definatly stores the movements, but the question is, are they sent to the server, and what do they do with them?

PwNZoRNooB
04-28-2007, 09:16 PM
So now it doesn't matter if you use movemousesmooth and stuff ? :confused:
And you can run benmouse = false with maxspeed ?
Wow, if its so, then my autofighter is going to have a bigtime revamp.


Id still say it's safer to use the Mouse and MMouse and other stuffs, if ur flagged ur prolly get caught from highly detectable procedures and functions. But if ur using good functions and procedures the chances of ban go lower