@ Tha Claw, Who Says God couldnt have created us with evolution?
suppose it is actually the people who make the world as it is?
didnt God Give us our Free Agency?
Im sure it says that in the Bible ;)
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@ Tha Claw, Who Says God couldnt have created us with evolution?
suppose it is actually the people who make the world as it is?
didnt God Give us our Free Agency?
Im sure it says that in the Bible ;)
That is kind of the whole problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by SKy Scripter
Yea, Lol, but My point was,Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
Saying bad things are happening to the world isnt God's Fault because it says in the bible God gave us our choice to choose ect..
so therefore using that against religions is stupid.
I think what Wizzup? meant was that the whole holy book (also known as the Bible) was the problem. At least that's my point of view and it sounded as if Wizzup? meant that too. ;) Did you, Wizzup? Did you!?Quote:
Originally Posted by SKy Scripter
Yeah the books are the source of all problems? Burn them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumleren
the people that believe the books are the problem... :stirthepot:
Neg, the people who can't interpret( in the common way) the books are the problem. Islam is a peaceful religion, yet people blow themselves up for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerdou
no, they use the islam as an excuse to blow themselves up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKa0vLqh5OQ
"God does not roll dice"
- Albert Einstein... Arguably one of the greatest men in all of science, past and present.
I realize this is not a valid argument but I just thought some people would be interested in this fact.
Thats not true. Did you read the Qur'an?Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLKrawl
It very clearly states that the Islam is the only religion.
And that all others must be erradicated. (Of this I am not sure, but I think it was like that)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Claw
I could get mad. I could call you an ignorant fool who does not examine the world around him, cannot learn to read posts, and needs to learn to look at both sides of the situation. I could call you biased, only thinking what you think because you want the easy way out. But I will not ;).
You need to learn to read, as I never liked how the catholic church worked, they never said it was pure fact, it is not in the Bible, we never said that God "told" us. You know, science also thought the world was flat? That's why the church did? OOO but wait, science is allowed to change. After all, the science of one day may not be the science of the next.
You see, there are wayyyy to many times where science changes, and they think nothing of it. But when the church does it, its "against the rules", even though nothing is different in the situation, just its not science, its the church.
I am not even defending the church, I am just pointing out. I just beat you and your little tricks at your own game so please keep on topic and keep God out of it, or do not reply at all.
EDIT: I am starting to get annoyed by the religion specifics talk. Wizzup, if you would like a piece of my mind about certain religion, I can give it to you, just over msn. This would be considered thread jacking, and I will infract ya ;).
Just kidding but seriously, stop taking it over with religion specific. you are simply shifting the arguement over from what you cannot answer to what you think we cannot know. I have adequately answered, as well as brought up several points about, questions about evolution. My whole theory is based on fact.
you dont answer questions that you dont know. So you try and disprove evolution. Evolutionists dont answer questions that they dont know. So they are trying to disprove God. Which basically means you arguing with them isnt really going to do anything until scientists come up with more facts. So, maybe end the argument?:) because no one is getting anywhere.
and you've already written your topic at the beginning to disprove evolution so no need to keep an unending argument going
Actually I have accomplished much.
I have convinced many that are not ignorant, especially on msn, and I have nothing at the moment I cannot answer. By the way, I never use "Because God did it" as an answer.
You also conviently forgot that evolutionists must be able to answer them for their theory to be true, because everything happens naturally, and they pretend to know the answers.
So basically, I have my view, which I have no questions I cannot answer and I don't use cheap answers like "because God wanted it to", then you have evolutionists who can't even tell me one fact about evolution that is proven true, cannot answer what they pretend to know but really don't, and they must know because it happened randomly is not a good enough answer and you do not base a theory on things you do not know, while also using cheap techniques. That is how it is going right now.
I'm sure you've had this question asked, and I think I know what the answer will be, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
Do you believe that man was man as it is now during the time of the Garden of Eden? Supposedly Archaeologists have found 'Monkey Men.'
Well, I would have to say I do. however, do not let them mislead you, there have been fake fossils, and altered fossils, but no true transitional fossils have been found and anyone who says other wise it uneducated concerning the matter. That would not be my fault etheir ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLKrawl
I'm sure no one disagrees with this statement, since evolution was supposed to occur over millions of years for small changes.
no one, but thats what im getting at - the religions say that we were made by god himself, until science starts proving we werent. then the religions quickly change their story and say "but wait god did that on purpose, too."Quote:
@ Tha Claw, Who Says God couldnt have created us with evolution?
Thats actually pretty offensive. Considering I spend my time making an intelligent post, hoping to get some good conversation and instead I get this shit in return. But look, you are always talking about "looking at both sides", "examining the situation", and "bias". Out of all the religious discussions we have had on these forums I am the only one who has done this. You just spout religious babble that has been doctrined into your life since birth, and then abuse anyone who points out the flaws in your story. You dont look at my points. you dont look at anyone elses points. you dont rebut them, you dont argue them, you just say they are wrong without backing that up in any way.Quote:
I could get mad. I could call you an ignorant fool who does not examine the world around him, cannot learn to read posts, and needs to learn to look at both sides of the situation. I could call you biased, only thinking what you think because you want the easy way out. But I will not .
another insult. and one of the stupidest portions of text i have ever read (i can insult too). of course science is "allowed" to change? with science theres no one sitting up at the top of a massive building telling everyone whats right and whats wrong like the church, thats the big difference. as technology advances, so does our knowledge of the world. my point is, as above, religion are so sure they know everything. heaven and hell, etc. and yet, with every passing day, more things are discovered which shows that religion was wrong, again. religion laid the groundwork, science is breaking it.Quote:
You need to learn to read, as I never liked how the catholic church worked, they never said it was pure fact, it is not in the Bible, we never said that God "told" us. You know, science also thought the world was flat? That's why the church did? OOO but wait, science is allowed to change. After all, the science of one day may not be the science of the next.
of course the church shouldnt be changing, they have been teaching all their stuff for thousands of years, you would think they should have it right by then. bit embarrasing for them when they are proven wrong so often.Quote:
You see, there are wayyyy to many times where science changes, and they think nothing of it. But when the church does it, its "against the rules", even though nothing is different in the situation, just its not science, its the church.
lol?????????? you beat me and my little tricks, at my own game? all you said was "religion is allowed to change too bawwwwwwwwww :( :( :( :( :(" not beating me at all mate. sorry.Quote:
I am not even defending the church, I am just pointing out. I just beat you and your little tricks at your own game so please keep on topic and keep God out of it, or do not reply at all.
again, lol????????? not at all mate.Quote:
you are simply shifting the arguement over from what you cannot answer to what you think we cannot know. I have adequately answered, as well as brought up several points about, questions about evolution. My whole theory is based on fact.
look i dont think i will post in here again, i advise everyone else not to either. pwnaz0r if you want an intelligent conversation then wake up and look around, actually take my posts on board and discuss them maturely and intelligently. seriously wtf is the point in me posting if you are just going to say "no you are wrong." without backing your claims up. you religious folks are all the same. you say you want the truth yet when we all try and find it you crack the shits, start insulting people and dont even listen to the other posters!! open your mind, what we say could be correct, probably is. yeh i have looked from the viewpoint of religions/church too, many times, and what i post is what i come up with.
hahaha, oh wow. so you are preaching to the less ignorant of us? lol. you beleive in some dude dying then coming alive 3 days later? who can walk on water? and turn water into wine? and yet you refuse the possibility of something as simple and logical as evolution, which goes hand in hand with natural selection - i see from your sig you believe in that?Quote:
I have convinced many that are not ignorant, especially on msn, and I have nothing at the moment I cannot answer. By the way, I never use "Because God did it" as an answer.
so to sum up: either look at my posts, take them on board and rebut each one of my arguements clearly and intelligently. none of this shit which you have been posting lately. no preaching please. no turning this into a game which you have also been doing. open your mind, look at it from both sides, and actually see for 1 second how absurd the religions are. if you dont do that, then i wont be posting here again. theres no point, you are a lost cause.
You give me a infraction for calling you a dipshit, but you state that everyone that does not believe in some kind of creator is ignorant. . . ?Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
@ The Claw, Uhmmm, Im not sure what you mean... i have always believed that.
"Out of the Ground the Lord God Formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air"
What does he mean by "Ground" Exactly?
So it is not of all religions, who have decided to change. ;)
Administrator's Warning: This is the Final and only warning.
Stay ontopic and stop bickering or else this thread will be closed.
R0b0t you infraction was reversed by Wizzup? so lay off and forget it.
You're in deep enough already.
Stay on topic and keep it civilized!
LAST WARNING
The bible was written by hundreds of scholars over a long time, they didn't have God proofreading over their shoulders. What, did you think that Jesus was some sort of journalist?
Another thing, being religious doesn't mean being ignorant to the things around you. I don't see Christians standing around howling that the Earth is flat, do you? Yeah, we were wrong, so were most astronomers and most everybody at the time. Christians neither claim to be perfect or right, we simply follow Christ.
yep, and contains many errors in translation and other ways, some are said to be done on purpose, some not. for example, its said that jesus never claimed to be god's son, but the priests/scholars who wrote that part of the bible deliberately changed it. Instead of "we are all god's children" to "i am god's child" or something. i dunno if its true but thats just one of the things i read. it wouldnt suprise me though, it would suit the needs of the catholics/christian priests much better.Quote:
The bible was written by hundreds of scholars over a long time, they didn't have God proofreading over their shoulders. What, did you think that Jesus was some sort of journalist?
but i guess my point overall is this, if the church and religions were so wrong about so many things in the past, which were all integral to their teachings, how can you trust them to be right with anything? i predict that in the near future (10 years, 50 years, 100 years), the idea of creationalism will be dead and everyone will accept evolution, just like we now accept the heliocentric model of the solar system. and more things the church teaches will be proven wrong too, i bet.
True, and anyway, the idea of the earth being flat wasn't invented by Christians at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLKrawl
Um...if Jesus was never the son of God but the rest of the bible is true, then what's that huge section about Mary finding out that she will become pregnant through a dream as well as Joseph finding out his to-be wife (or already wife, I don't remember) will bear the son of God? Oh, how about that one section where Jesus raises from the dead after being dead for 3 days and is lifted up from heaven. Do you think he'd let just anyone be able to do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Claw
No the claw, now you make an intellegent post. I suggest you read the rules of the thread and read the post exactly above yours before posting? I called you not an ignorant fool because of your views, but because you did not even care to read the main page, basically any other page of the arguement, the page you posted on, or the post above yours. You care nothing for the arguement, you only think that you must be right and I must be wrong. I spent hours of research as well as a few hours typing it, hours a day maintaining this thread and I would appreciate it if you would be mature and show me some respect. You do now sound a bit immature, putting that as nicely as I can, because you want to whine and complain about me, yet you are the one who came here, did not care what I had to say, had no respect for my arguement, did not care to read the posts, and you yourself do not think you can be wrong. That is not my fault and I am sorry that you feel that way. If you take a look, many have calmy posted their questions and I have adequately answered them both philosophically and scientifically, because my view does in fact make sense. You may not believe it, but you should at least see where I am coming from.
I must in fact hold my own in this prodominatly forum of athiests and/or people that do not really care, and I have to hold order in my own thread somehow.
You say I spout things that were planted in me, but again I started out an athiest, you would know that if you read the first page or anything on this thread.
I have repeadily said to keep a God out of this arguement on this thread, because it is not what we are argue-ing, it gets into pro-religion things, which you must first think there is something out there if you are to understand what it is, just like you must take Pre - algebra if you ever want to understand algebra or even calculus.
I am sorry if I insulted you, but almost everything you said two posts ago was wrong.
1. I never tried to insult you. I try to keep it rational and everyone needs to read the thread before replying. You also have brought up the same points on this thread that I have already answered at least 2ce, which makes me mad because you obviously didn't read, nor even cared to browse through.
2. You pre suppose there is no God and you think all religion is bad. If so why even step foot in this thread? There is no point? I never pre suppose that because I would have recognized it and I do not, so do not think for a second I do. If I did, I would argue God on this thread, but for now, I am argueing only that there was intellegent design. Remember that I was once athiest.
3. I hope you do not question my intellect, because right now you seem the only atheist bold enough to even try to defend your theory with scientific fact (or I have skimmed the last few pages, if anyone else wishes to defend with scientific fact please come forth). Please, I encourage it.
4. You assume that all religions are bad. That is a pre supposition and if you ever want to find the truth, whether you are right or wrong, you must stop thinking that. Forget the past Claw, I do not associate my self with the catholi church, therefore nothing it ever did applies to me. I actually believe the catholic church was very wrong in it's beliefs as well as most catholic's today think it was wrong, not just scientific, but religiously.
5. Never rule out the possibility of a designer, even if you cannot understand him completely because, one, you do not understand almost anything about evolution or the big bang correctly, how then can you say my theory is more incorrect than the yours? and two, everything can be explained by scientific fact by my theory.
As to r0b0t1, I will speak to ya on msn if you like and tell you personally, since no one else wants to do it, exactly why I gave it to you. It was taken away, so do not get all hyped up about it...
EDIT: By the way claw, read your post more and through all the insults I gathered that you think my theory has holes in it. It does not, if so name one? Remember not to bring the catholic church into it because you seem to think I am catholic which I am not. My religion has not changed its views, only it's views on science just as the whole world has, and it changed with the whole world (We do not pretend to replace science with religion, so do not credit it to us.). So because we change our story along with you, you say that it is wrong for us, yet we do not sit down with God and take science lessons, so that doesn't really make sense. You also say it is doctrine I was fed as a baby, which it wasn't, I was an atheist. You say science accounts for evolution, but I assure you it does not. If so, name one fact you can find about evolution that is true. And please do not respond with "well, you name one thing about God that is true", because I am not argueing God, I am argueing an intellegent designer. If you would like a list of things that show design, they are on the front page, they are well thought out theories that science has yet to answer.
EDIT EDIT: Welcome to the real world claw. A world were you get bashed for you beliefs, who would have thought huh? No one knows that better than me claw, I live it everyday.
Honestly, I can't refute some of the points you've brought forth simply because I'm not well educated in those areas, but I will try to make an argument for some things I have researched a bit, including irreducible complexity.
This page (please excuse the Wikipedia link) largely explains how the scientific community has tried and succeeded in proving that most of Michael Behe's claims about irreducible complexity have turned out to be false. Check out the Dover trial to see some examples of how Behe's ideas have been proven incorrect. The Wikipedia page also provides quite a bit of insight on the subject also.
Also, you seem to think convincing an atheist who doesn't speak English well at all (you even mentioned that in your post) means that you seem to have won some sort of battle (that's my perception of the events listed). If I wanted to, I could get a kindergarten student to stop believing in Santa Claus because I could use big words and seem smarter on the topic than I really am (I realize you have done research, though). It's the same situation in your 'bout' with the foreign student at your school.
Hopefully I've presented some half-decent arguments (I have been reading this thread, but I may have mentioned some things that came up before. If that's the case, please forgive me.). I'm open to new ideas, but seeing as all you've done is give some examples to possibly allude to their being an intelligent designer, I'm going to stay on the fence (while leaning towards the evolution side) for the moment.
Nah dw I read the first post. I admit I didnt read the whole topic, but I was still argueing agaisnt an intelligent designer. All the things I said tied in well with why I think there wasnt an intelligent designer, if you cant see that then I didnt express myself well enough.
Theres loads of scientific evidence, I won't post it here though. I'll just link you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution, read it if you want. This is an interesting read too: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/apes.html. Goes through how the DNA of humans and apes is 97-98% identical among other things. Good luck disproving the work of hundreds of scientists and archaeologists.
And I'm not ruling out the possibility of an intelligent designer but personally I strongly believe there isnt. And nah lol I know quite a bit about the current big bang theory, and the current evolution theory. Just cause I dont post every bit of knowledge I have doesn't mean I dont know it.
What religion are you? I dont think all religions are bad or anything, I just think most are just fantasy cleverly wrapped around a small grain of truth.Quote:
My religion has not changed its views, only it's views on science just as the whole world has, and it changed with the whole world (We do not pretend to replace science with religion, so do not credit it to us.).
Personally I think all that stuff is a load of rubbish but thats just me, lol.Quote:
Um...if Jesus was never the son of God but the rest of the bible is true, then what's that huge section about Mary finding out that she will become pregnant through a dream as well as Joseph finding out his to-be wife (or already wife, I don't remember) will bear the son of God? Oh, how about that one section where Jesus raises from the dead after being dead for 3 days and is lifted up from heaven. Do you think he'd let just anyone be able to do that?
EDIT - Wait, were you saying that I'm the one who cant speak english well? Or someone else? Sorry if my posts had bad grammar, I was in a hurry and didnt have time to go back over it.
What? No, I'm just saying that if priests or w/e tried to change the bible when they were translating it, they would have to spend a ton of time on it because it isn't very easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Claw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Method
Yes it is like a battle, and let me tell you why. People make such a big deal of it, including myself, but when I finally make someone believe it cannot be true, their response is usually "I don't care about it, it doesn't matter". I do admit I take it like a battle, but the atheists have the odds in people, they have the monopoly on scientific fact, and they come in with pre suppositions about my view that I do not hold to. I admit that I do get "fired up", but I do put many hours into this and I enjoy it.
Secondly about the not speaking english well, I don't think that is a great excuse. I use big words and I seem smarter on the topic because I have alot of expierence in argueing in general, as well as specifically intellegent design. I know what it takes to make someone think about it and not just rule it out from the top of their head. I may seem smarter because I have in fact done many many hours of research, read many books on both sides, and have carefully constructed the arguement.
About the irreducible complexity, I understand where you are coming from, but it is a technique called dillusion. They give an example that works, but it does not have the same situation truely.
In that arguement, you say
1. A part is created.
2. A use is found for it.
I can even find the quote for that. Now, the problem is, it should be switched around because things aren't just created and then not used, there is a need and then it is created. That is a big point on which that counter theory is based, and even if you do not understand it, I assure you it shakes its foundation.
I am GREATLY pleased to find that you are admiting there are some things you don't know, and that is the problem. It is taught in schools and is accepted as knowledge, but there is no solid foundation on which it is built (when I say that I mean a good solid theory) Of course, with this instance I would not say I "won the battle", because you are being rational and truely are open. Now if I constantly have to "fight" an atheist who is not open, then I would say that, as he would say if he convinced me.
(Different post for the claw.)
But you see, all of those hundreds of scientists believe the same thing, so I must only disprove that point. Please leave the point that apes and humans DNA out of this, as creationalist scientists have confirmed, as well as evolutionist reluctantly agreed, that out of the 98%, 96% is the fact that it is DNA at all, and that we have legs and feet. DNA should not be a factor for your arguement, because if we want to look at it that way, I could say a bird's DNA is 93% the same as humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Claw
Also, I will go to those sites, but I have seen them before. I want you to personally research the arguements and give them to me, not some link. Because you see, scientists define fact as the thing most reasonable to be true, that there is no 100% absolute right in science. Therefore, you must look yourself.
1. There have been no fossils found, I can assure you that Claw. There was a book writen by the leader of a rather large group that believes in evolution, just not that we could come here by chance and that science is wrong about how we started, that even admitted this point (I forget the name, I heard of this yesterday though). If you own scientist admit it and so do mine, then that is around 40% of the scientists in the world. You should take a look for yourself. Today we actually had a slideshow in my class about the supposed fossil record. 90% of most of them were plastered or had clay to fill them in.
Also, as for fossils, it was proven in the mt. saint helens 2005 erruption that heating and cooling of magma can produce fossilized objects in a matter of hours.
Let me say one more thing. This article was written before december 1st, 1998. That was ten years ago, and many of the fossils have been proven fraud, a member of the ape species, or a member of the man species. Also, it seems to be disproving evolution, except for the one thing about the two flies DNA being 25% and the humans and apes being 97% or whatever. Well, again, they have disclosed the reason to why the DNA is so similar.
I'm pretty sure Pwnaz0r is Orthodox...like me?
Three monkeys sat in a coconut tree
Discussing things as they are said to be
Said one to the others, "Now listen, you two,
There’s a rumor around that can’t be true
That man descended from our noble race
The very idea is a great disgrace."
"No monkey has ever deserted his wife
Starved her babies and ruined her life
And you’ve never known a mother monk
To leave her babies with others to bunk
Or pass from one on to another
Till they scarcely knew who is their mother."
"Here’s another thing a monkey won’t do
Go out at night and get in a stew
Or use a gun or club or knife
To take some other monkey’s life
Yes, man descended, the ornery cuss
But, brother, he didn’t descend from us."
Author Unknown.
I like that poem.
I like that :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobarkinator
I wish I knew who wrote that. That's amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobarkinator
Alright, I guess that no one has any more comments to make :)? Well, I will keep this thread open and check it every few days.
Firstly, I'd like to say "wow". I read through your first post and I respect the effort and time researching you must have put into writing it.
If there's just one thing that I'd like to ask, or rather that I don't understand, is your argument about amoebae traveling through space. From what I gather, you're saying that in order for cells to reach Earth, they would have potentially had to cross billions upon billions of kilometres to reach here. If that is what you're saying, isn't also viable that they may have been transported somehow else; at the risk of being hopelessly cliche (science-fiction), on a comet, or asteroid?
At any rate. To some degree, I agree with your points but I'm not entirely convinced. I have a clear bias, because of my religion, to believe that there was intelligent design behind the creation of life, but I, nor anyone can prove or disprove that. If you've read Bill Bryson's (immensely interesting) A Short History of Nearly Everything, he presents a number of theories as to how life could have evolved from basic proteins and prokaryotes, which I won't get into now.
On a basic level, I feel that evolution could well have taken place. Your point, however, about the probability of such a perfectly improbable thing occurring is what leads me to believe that there must have been some sort of intelligent design at work. The confluence of perfectly timed events, but moreover the original creation of matter and the universe begs the question; where did it come from, or who made it?
------
Here's where I'm going to have to disagree with you. Granted, I go to a Catholic school, but as much as possible they try to steer clear of forcing any one theory upon students. It's left pretty open ended and I don't at all think it's widely accepted as fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
He is right: they do not force ideas upon you.
But since you didn't like the asteroid bringing life to the planet, how about a planet exploded and formed the asteroid, hmm?
Forget creationism, forget evolutionists, all together.
We are all tiny insignificant humans, the most we will ever comprehend when it comes to the universe is our small understandings and guesses about understanding it (called science) and the most we will ever understand about god or anything like that (called religion) is our guesses. And the most important thing you will ever comprehend in your life time is your inability to actually comprehend anything.
To put this more simply, think about this deeply.
It's impossible to comprehend any truth, or is it?
It's simply put as we will never know anything, and I will admit it's probably stupid believe there is a truth such as we were created by evolution or that we were created by God, or is it?
We just simply, do not, can not, will not, know, ever. Or will we? Do you see where I'm going with this?
Personally I believe in some kind of God, maybe not exactly the one your minister preaches about. But I am not atheist, but I don't rule out scientific findings either, but I don't place them as the true foundations of the universe in my head.
If you really want to put your life into prospective more, take some real hard core philosophy stuff.
Could you rewrite that in a more umm.......less 1970's fashion? I won't say you sounded like a stoner, but that was a weird way to word it. Everything you wrote was like 'Would you like pie or would you?'Quote:
Originally Posted by IceFire908
What I mean is there is no such thing as comprehending truth, including this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLKrawl
When I said "or is there" that means there might be and there might not be we just simply won't ever know anything for sure (including this statement) or will we?
If only hippie-speak could be an actual language so babelfish and worldlingo would make some sort of Hippie to English translation...Quote:
Originally Posted by IceFire908
(no offence...)
In a way you are right Icefire. We cannot comprehend, but God did reach out to us. That's the main reason I think there is one. That is the difference in our arguements. You think we can't know ethier because we can't comprehend (or maybe we can as your analogy goes :)), but I recognized that God did reach out to us through Jesus Christ. He did perform miracles, and that is fact, now whether it was black magic or miracles from God, you choose. I think that when you read the Bible, that it is evident that he used miracles from God, since he only preached moral things and such, never did anything bad or worshipped the devil
Also, for those who say all religions are the same, that is where most religions split. Mine believes God reached out to us, which gives me at least some proof to stand on, not just complete faith.