Arguments for God's Existance

People have told me there are many arguments for God's existance,

however, when i ask them, they give me something which sounds like this

"What was before the big bang? science cannot possibly explain our world, there must be something more, it must be God!*
Therefore God exists"

well this is an argument, but i would like to hear more arguments
i keep thinking, there must be more to it then that...

I'm going to call this argument, The argument for science's failure
I've heard this argument many times, debating about the same thing is rapidly become quite stale


Post here any other arguments, which are not the argument for science's failure.

post here and we can debate about them (fun) :)

*(notice assumption, If Theory A is wrong, Theory B must be correct)

Ok, here is the trick. There are no arguments for God's existence. There are no arguments against it either.
Anyone who claims to have one is just going to give you crap, with variations of presentation.

Crap like "God exists because I prayed for my uncle to live and he did" or "I don't see any evidence for God to exist, therefore he doesn't"

Why is this so? Simple. You are not meant to be able to prove there is a God. Plain and simple. For thoes who do (like me) it's as plain as day. You see it in every blade of grass, in nature, in beautiy, and in your soul you feel it. But this is not something you can really communicate or show. I have a personal testimony that God exists, and I have recived personal revelations and communication with him; But the nature of all of these things are personal, I can not make you feel or understand what I do, this is something you must do for yourself.

That's how all of this is. Proof that God exists or not is a personal thing that only you can know. That's where it resides. Some people take what other's believe, and believe them. Most kids raised in the church believe in God because their parents do, and they trust their parents, therefore that is proof. Some have a personal proof of his existence, some don't.

Your own testimony or other's is the closest thing to prove or disprove God that you will find. Sorry it makes for such bad argumentative material, but that's just how it is meant to be.

@Yakman, the argument for God that you show is also flawed and not explainable by God or religion, "What was there before God?" there, broken.

@Yakman, no, there really is nothing more to it. It would break the whole point of faith if there was any way at all to prove God's existance or not.

@Yakman, concerning science failure. Well, seince we are human, and science is really a religion founded by the more physical and tangible truths, the only way I can show sciences failure, is with science. Lucky enough, that's pretty easy. Science is constantly being changed. Truths that were accepted before are being found out to not be true now. The more evidence you see, the more we see how much science was wrong before. Earth isn't flat, atoms are not non-divisible, etc.

Ahaha, we had a thread like this nearly a year ago :p. Didnt turn out to well :).

-Reserved for Later.

Reserved.

I don't really believe in god because I lack proof btw and I don't think this thread will turn out very well either.

whats with all the reserving?

all you guys saying it might not turn out well...
what could possibly go wrong... we're over the internet, its impossible to stab or shoot someone this way...

we argue like men, with the spoken (or written) word :)

1) Human reasoning is inherently flawed. Therefore there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
2) I propose God Exists
3) Therefore, God Exists.

seriously though... it all comes down to your faith. I believe because that is how i grew up. I know there are good arguments out there, but I don't know them. I don't believe in the big bang but neither do I believe the earth was created in 7 days. I believe that "day" is actually meaning era or long period of time. I also am ok at disproving some facts that people say are untrue about God, but I am not the best as this.

For example: People say, "Well I can't believe in a God that would make people that go to a hell."

The truth is, he doesn't make anyone go to hell. You have the choice.

I can't make anyone believe, but I can try to help them, if they want.

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Originally Posted by Yakman

whats with all the reserving?

all you guys saying it might not turn out well...
what could possibly go wrong... we're over the internet, its impossible to stab or shoot someone this way...

we argue like men, with the spoken (or written) word :)

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You have to note that half believe in God and half don't.
not only that most people here age 12-14. lol.

As long as the argument stays calm and everything then i see nothing wrong, but hatred often comes from this agrument so i don't think it's the best idea.

i'll post my thoughts later..Edit: I believe in God, but not just because our world is complex.

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Originally Posted by SKy Scripter

You have to note that half believe in God and half don't.
not only that most people here age 12-14. lol.

As long as the argument stays calm and everything then i see nothing wrong, but hatred often comes from this agrument so i don't think it's the best idea.

i'll post my thoughts later.. But i don't believe in god because our world has so much complicated things

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Perhaps it would be a good idea to have the "Move thread" button at the ready? :p

By "complicated things", do you mean there's so much Sin in the world? That's not God's fault. It's humans' imperfection.

Yeah, until Magog (Russia, Kazhakstan(or pakistan I can't remember), and possibly Turkey) attack Israel, I don't think God will interfere with sin, except by having Christians convert people. Even if you don't believe, it's still interesting to read about the Rapture and the Tribulation and the Beasts.

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Originally Posted by Hugolord

I don't really believe in god because I lack proof

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Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by SkyScripter

But i don't believe in god because our world has so much complicated things

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Completely invalid. I could come right back and say "I belive in God because our world has so much complicated things"

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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe

1) Human reasoning is inherently flawed. Therefore there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
2) I propose God Exists
3) Therefore, God Exists.

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Unfortunatly this means nothing for proof. To anyone other than you, it is self contradictory, as what you said is flawed human reason therefore invalid.

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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe

I believe because that is how i grew up. I know there are good arguments out there, but I don't know them.

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Sorry to disapoint you, but there really arent any. Read my post above. But at least you give the proof of which why you believe. Who ever raised you's testimony. legit. The rest of your post is just disproving other arguments against and stuff. It's not proof that he exists, just ways to stop other's flawed logic.

Oh, and I have already noticed that the conversation is starting to spiral out from what yakman said it was suposed to be about. To uphold integredy, please check yourself.

fair enough, but I am believing in God, because there is also no solid proof that he doesn't exist

also, i just don't want to disappear when I die. I want the glories of what God has promised. if he doesn't exist, I at least know I led a good life.

And also, how can life come from no life? Where did animal and plant life come from? Science has proved tat life cannot arise from nonlife. This is also a reason to believe

Also, lordgreggreg you got my name wrong :D

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Originally Posted by LordGregGreg

Ok, here is the trick. There are no arguments for God's existence. There are no arguments against it either.

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There is no proof the tooth fairy exists, there is no proof the tooth fairy does not exist.
Therefore the tooth fairy exists.

Russel's teapot, Russel's teapot, Russel's teapot
There is no proof that Russel's teapot exists, there is no proof that Russel's teapot does not exist.
Therefore Russel's teapot exists.

..... get my drift here?

also, you might want to google "Russel's teapot", it really is a fascinating topic

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Originally Posted by LordGregGreg

For thoes who do (like me) it's as plain as day. You see it in every blade of grass, in nature, in beautiy, and in your soul you feel it.

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I would like to point out that, X is beautiful does not imply X is true.

Wouldn't it be so beautiful if the world was made in 6 days, so simple, so elegant,
alas, it is not true

Wouldn't it be so beautiful if These women were true, alas, they were made with photoshop, in real life they look really ugly.

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Originally Posted by LordGregGreg

But the nature of all of these things are personal, I can not make you feel or understand what I do, this is something you must do for yourself.
That's how all of this is. Proof that God exists or not is a personal thing that only you can know.

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i fail to see how this is valid, lets take the example of politics,
people are perfectly entitled to debate and argue about which political party is better, they can do this all day long, and no-one gets offended or anything,
I don't see how God has this special status where you cannot communicate it to others,

If Shakespeare said "I cannot communicate my grief to others", we would never have had Hamlet.

If Lionel Richie said "I cannot communicate my hurt", we would never have had many of his songs.

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Originally Posted by LordGregGreg

@Yakman, concerning science failure. Well, seince we are human, and science is really a religion founded by the more physical and tangible truths, the only way I can show sciences failure, is with science. Lucky enough, that's pretty easy. Science is constantly being changed. Truths that were accepted before are being found out to not be true now. The more evidence you see, the more we see how much science was wrong before. Earth isn't flat, atoms are not non-divisible, etc.

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science is not a religion, because science is based on evidence, whereas religion is based on belief dispite the evidence.

if all the evidence in the world said that God existed, i would be the first to admit it,

science gets things wrong, but there is no shame in that,

you can take the example of the shape of the earth,
people used to believe the earth was flat, because when you look at the horizon, it appears straight, that was the evidence.

however, someone used the argument that when you look at a ship sailing towards you over the horizon, you first see its crow's nest, then you see its sails, then you see its hull. the only explanation for this was that the earth was a sphere.

the people who said the earth was flat did not get in a big huff and mindlessly stick to their belief, they simple said, "Oh, thats a very good point, i see the earth is round, and i made a mistake before"

later, someone might find evidence that the earth is not a sphere,
Actually, Newton did find evidence, his calculations show that the earth is not a true sphere, but a sphere slightly flattened at the poles



this is great guys, keep it up! :)

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Originally Posted by isjusme

fair enough, but I am believing in God, because there is also no solid proof that he doesn't exist
also, i just don't want to disappear when I die. I want the glories of what God has promised. if he doesn't exist, I at least know I led a good life.

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fair enough, :) Liek i said, theres no proof against or for god, which makes yor argument pretty nutural, but yeah, at least religion makes you some promises, better safe than sorry right? lol.

Oh, i was talking to Jason2gs, he showed me something pretty cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion

now i know that carbon dating is kinda iffy, and that you can take this however you can, and conjour up a sciencetific goddles background for it. But I still think its prety cool, and pretty ironic. if your not looking for proof, check it out :)

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Originally Posted by LordGregGreg

Oh, i was talking to ibedabigdogg, he showed me something pretty cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
:)

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too much to read lol, i saw explosion and i was like "OMG AWESOME SAUCE"
but then i saw how many subarticles... ew no thanks

but seriously read some stuff from this site oops wrong site lol well I can't find it, but it was cool.

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Originally Posted by Yakman

There is no proof the tooth fairy exists, there is no proof the tooth fairy does not exist.
Therefore the tooth fairy exists.
Russel's teapot, Russel's teapot, Russel's teapot
There is no proof that Russel's teapot exists, there is no proof that Russel's teapot does not exist.
Therefore Russel's teapot exists.

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ok, you almost got my point. Yes, you are right about the tooth fairy. And I really can not prove she doesnt exist, other than using other peoples testimonys, or my own. (and yeah, even after all of that she may). So seince i dont have a personal testimony, and no one who i credit does either, i do not belive the tooth fairy exists. (nor is there any science proof either)

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Originally Posted by Yakman

I would like to point out that, X is beautiful does not imply X is true.

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:) I told you stright out before that this was not an argument or proof for you. It's to hard to explain, far to personal really. It's not a valid argument at all, like i said. It's part of my own testimony, that I see and understand, and unfrotunatly (or not?) it can't be valid for anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Yakman

I don't see how God has this special status where you cannot communicate it to others

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yeah, i know it may seem quite annoying. But that's really just how it has got to be. Faith is prety important to understanding this stuff, and if i could comuncate (prove) god to you, it would just make it worthless.

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Originally Posted by Yakman

If Shakespeare said "I cannot communicate my grief to others", we would never have had Hamlet.

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oh, sorry, you twist my words. Yes, i can try to comunicate god to you, but i absoltuly defamentalty can not prove it. It just cant be done. I can try to show you how it feels, but its not as simple as an emotion like grief or hurt. Shakespeaer and Lionel can comunicate thoes because it is an extension of stuff that we already feel. If you are talking to someone who has never felt grief before, they would look at you crazy if you try to explain it.

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Originally Posted by Yakman

science is not a religion,

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ok

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Originally Posted by Yakman

religion is based on belief dispite the evidence.

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invalid. Complelty. Where is the evidence against? you didnt mention any..

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Originally Posted by Yakman

if all the evidence in the world said that God existed, i would be the first to admit it,

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only a fool wouldnt. but we both know that phjysicaly on a factual level, none of it ever will.

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Originally Posted by Yakman

science gets things wrong, but there is no shame in that,

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not saying there is, just answering your bold question up top.

i can prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist.

that skank ain't give me no money last few times/

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Originally Posted by isjusme

i can prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist.

that skank ain't give me no money last few times/

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exactly :) your own personal experience. I happen to have recently had a little interview with all of myfriends, they provide similar evidence, along with parental confesions that previous proof was really people they knew posing as imposters.

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Originally Posted by isjusme

fair enough, but I am believing in God, because there is also no solid proof that he doesn't exist

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this has been covered, see some posts before mine,

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Originally Posted by isjusme

if he doesn't exist, I at least know I led a good life.

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you're are saying there, "It's better to be safe then sorry"

"if i don't believe in god, the best thing that can happen is that im right, the worst that can happen is i go to hell"
"if i do believe in god, the best thing that can happen is i go to heaven, the worst is that i was mistaken all my life"

this is flawed because you can't actually choose what you believe in,
you can go to church every sunday, you can swear on a holy book that you believe every word inside them,
in short, you can say you believe it,

but if its a deception, as your words lead me to believe, then God will surely see straight through you argument, and condemn you to hell for not believing in him.


there is another thing here, how is it that the best way to make God happy is to believe in him?
i would think the best way is to fight and die for him, to donate 70% of your income to his church and to spread your religion to those closest to you.

but no, it seems only believing in him is enough.

what happens if theres someone at the gates of heaven, and they are saying "I'm sorry God, i tried to believe in you, i really tried, but i just couldn't"

what happens to this person?


there is this serious and widespread misconception that you can choose your own belief
(which should maybe be a topic for another thread)

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Originally Posted by isjusme

And also, how can life come from no life? Where did animal and plant life come from? This is also a reason to believe

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this is a powerful argument, and in the ancient and medival
scientists have explained this without involving God. you can easily go to any library or school and read about it yourself.
this is only a valid argument for the ignorant (all due respect meant)

for example, plant and animal life evolved gradually from earlier life forms, which were neither plant nor animal.

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Originally Posted by isjusme

Science has proved tat life cannot arise from nonlife.

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which science is this? i suggest you read over it again, its likely you interpreted it wrongly.
with all due respect, it sounds like another made-up fact.

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Originally Posted by Yakman

this has been covered, see some posts before mine,



you're are saying there, "It's better to be safe then sorry"

"if i don't believe in god, the best thing that can happen is that im right, the worst that can happen is i go to hell"
"if i do believe in god, the best thing that can happen is i go to heaven, the worst is that i was mistaken all my life"

this is flawed because you can't actually choose what you believe in,
you can go to church every sunday, you can swear on a holy book that you believe every word inside them,
in short, you can say you believe it,

but if its a deception, as your words lead me to believe, then God will surely see straight through you argument, and condemn you to hell for not believing in him.

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I don't think i put my point across... and I think you are mistaking. If you ask for forgiveness through Jesus, you go to heaven.

What I meant was, IF he doesn't exist, I never said i don't believe. Everyone has doubts sometimes, and if you say you don't, then you lie, because you have or will. It is the way of the flesh.

God doesn't condemn you to hell for not believing in Him. He does it for not asking for forgiveness of sins, it's just that if you don't believe, you probably won't ask.

There were still life forms, but how did they get life? what "sparked" it? In the beginning of the big bang there was no life, so where did it come from?

What Science you ask? Louis Pasteur proved that Life cannot come from Nonlife.

@Yakman

I would like to point out that, X is beautiful does not imply X is true.

Wouldn't it be so beautiful if the world was made in 6 days, so simple, so elegant,
alas, it is not true

Wouldn't it be so beautiful if These women were true, alas, they were made with photoshop, in real life they look really ugly.

That is EXACTLY how I see it and @ isjustme, why would you believe something just for the sake of "why not believing it" ?

I mean then you can just i dunno make some other crap up like the toothfary and also I don't see why god became so popular (lol) I mean ok.. he might have been crucified and been a very good guy but that's basically it..

since there is no proof that he came back from the dead..

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Originally Posted by Hugolord

I mean then you can just i dunno make some other crap up like the toothfary and also I don't see why god became so popular (lol) I mean ok.. he might have been crucified and been a very good guy but that's basically it..

since there is no proof that he came back from the dead..

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there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

I don't know where you got, Just for the sake of believing in it. Maybe i worded something wrong without noticing, too lazy to go back and check. I believe because I love him, that's how I was raised, and I don't want to go to hell.

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t=Picture1.png

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religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods : ideas about the relationship between science and religion.
• details of belief as taught or discussed : when the school first opened they taught only religion, Italian, and mathematics.
• a particular system of faith and worship : the world's great religions.
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance : consumerism is the new religion.

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http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t=Picture2.png

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Religion


"Religious" redirects here. For a member of a religious community, see Religious order.
For the 1997 studio album by British rock band Spear of Destiny, see Religion (Spear of Destiny album).
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

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The first is from whatever dictionary is built in to MacOS, most likely a pretty reliable one because you've paid for it. The second is from Wikipedia, a reliable source although very rarely someone will edit it to their desires (the Vatican and many US agencies).

The point is it is a belief -- there really is no proof to either side. This argument will continue to spin around and around as each side inevitably says that the other side has no proof and must be accepted in turn, because there is no proof against it.

Another thing that goes along with the Celestial Teapot is the fact that propaganda does in fact work. It may not be an original idea, but it is entirely possible that religion could be an attempt to control masses of people simply because you cannot disprove it.

I personally think that Hillary Clinton will be more of a threat to controlling people. Think about it: Free health care from a woman who's husband cheated on her... obviously an attempt to control all men so no man will ever cheat again. Whenever a man goes in for a checkup, they will insert a chip into the person, and when darth hillary gives order 66 they will do anything she says.

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Originally Posted by isjusme

there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

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someone had to listen to these people and write down what they saw,

they they write it down neutrally? or did they have an agenda that coloured their writing?

any historian will tell you, you need many many sources to back up a story,
and historians have looked at many other sources, and they blatantly contradict the bible.

it is completely wrong to treat the bible as an accurate historical or scientific textbook,

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Originally Posted by Yakman

someone had to listen to these people and write down what they saw,

they they write it down neutrally? or did they have an agenda that coloured their writing?

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i'm not sure of what you mean by write it down neutrally, do you mean like just some random witness or something?

anyway, there really is no point to this arguing, obviously nobody is swaying the other side. I'm out.

sigh. I don't even know where to begin. I've already pretty much ended. I supose all there is left to do is disprove the people who think they are proving something.

Yakman, i think you have said this twice now, so it must be pretty critical to you.

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Originally Posted by yakman

[person on judgement day]and they are saying "I'm sorry God, i tried to believe in you, i really tried, but i just couldn't"

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I am not sure what you are trying to prove here... Perhaps sujesting religion is unjust to people who are unable to believe? Or perhaps saying that all a religion is about is believing. Still not sure what your getting at, but I can give you an answer to your question. I actually prayed about it and this is what I felt. I know that God will never expect you to do something you are incapable of. And I know that God is 100% just, therefore, if this scenario that you describe does happen, then they would be accepted into heaven with open arms. However, I think that anyone with a soul is capable in beliving. Granted, beliving in things not seen is hard, but I think it is possible by everyone.

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Originally Posted by isjusme

there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose,

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Please think about how weak your argument is before you say it. 500 people that I have no reason to trust. We are talking around 2000 years ago where the only record is documents that have defanitly been tampered with. We are talking uber weak proof.

and yakman is 100% right, the bible in itself is not right. The people who wrote and re-wrote it all had agendas and bias of their own. If you don't read it with insight you have a pretty good risk of getting garbage out of it.

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Originally Posted by Robot

His whole post

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Yes! Thank you, 100% on the dot. Ftw. Everyone else, read it.

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Originally Posted by isjusme

anyway, there really is no point to this arguing, obviously nobody is swaying the other side. I'm out.

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yep, you get it too, gz.

there is a lot of point in arguing,
it helps your formulate your ideas, and to think about life more critically,
also it helps to rally people who agree with you, just in case they feel like giving up, it can help them when they remember there are others like them.

and occasionally, very occasionally, people do change their religion because of it,
please dont go around saying, "all of this is pointness, no-one ever changed their mind", they do, I've seen it happen,
and changing people's mind isnt the only reason to debate


@R0b0t, you say there is no proof either side, that doesnt mean the debate should just stop,
there are many things that have no "proof" either way, in those cases, you look for arguments for and against,

for example, theres the idea that gases are made up of a large number of particles, with relatively large amounts of empty space between them.
there is no proof either way for this idea, but you can construct convincing arguments for and against,
an argument for, is that you can compress a gas a lot,
an argument against, is that this compression could just mean the particles are very soft,

probably the only time you'll find actual proof for something is in mathematical theorems, like actual proof that there is an infinite amount of prime numbers.

so lets come up with convincing arguments for and against the existence of god.

im not that good at debating and probably will get torn apart, but here i go anyways.

First, lets get the cold, hard facts down because I know you guys like those. Historically there really was a man named Jesus Christ. This has been proven. He went around preaching saying he was the Son of God and starting his own ministry. He was also put to death on the cross, for not denying he was the Son of God. He was put to death with 2 other people on each side of him, they were theifs, getting put to death. I forgot the number but a TON of people went to Jesus's tomb 3 days earlier, and there was no body. This would explain that he rose to Heaven and would come back.

Now, on to what i believe and when i tell you you wont believe me anyways, but whatever. My dad had a friend who died twice on the operating table from a heart attack. The doctors brought him back alive both times, he was dead for 10 minutes total. He told me that he went to Heaven. He told me that God and Jesus looked " like they were from Jerlusum(sp?)". Dark skinned etc. He told me everyone was getting along etc and it was beautiful.

it is also faith. When i pray i know there is someone there watching over me, i can feel it. The Bible is also a very interesting book, heres an internet verison. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=6&version=31
i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.

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Originally Posted by isjusme

there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

I don't know where you got, Just for the sake of believing in it. Maybe i worded something wrong without noticing, too lazy to go back and check. I believe because I love him, that's how I was raised, and I don't want to go to hell.

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sorry for the double post but NEVER believe in God just because you want to go to Heaven not Hell. Believing in God alone will not get you to Heaven.

There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.

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Originally Posted by andrewrox424

There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.

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you have to understand, everybody sins. The only man to walk the Earth that didnt sin is Jesus Christ himself. every time we sin it hurts God but Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins. No one is innocent. we are all sinners. Plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by oliver1205

i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.

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its not too complicated, if you ever read book by gore vidal or charles dickens, they are also complicated,
if you ever read a high level physics textbook, that gets quite complicated as well,
also if you ever read about the internal workings of a computer, and how to write a kernel, thats quite complicated as well
the bible could have easily been written by men (or women)

also, just because its interesting, does not make it true. On that basis, we should worship harry potter :P

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Originally Posted by oliver1205

Believing in God alone will not get you to Heaven.

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i think his point was if you don't believe in God, its a sure way to go to hell, you cannot go to heaven without believing in God.




as for those personal experiences, could it be that your dad's friend was hallucinating, or the drugs they give him went to his brain,
also, if he wasn't going to die, God knew this, so why did he go up to heaven for a short while?

also, how can you feel someone watching over you, when someone watches you, they see light that has reflected off you and gone into their eyes,
the only way you can know if they are watching you, is if you also watch them.

so could you just explain this "feeling", which you apparently didn't sense with any of your 5 senses.

ok ill try to explain it. Its starts its mt stomach like a burning sensation, but it just feels awesome. idk its really hard to explain

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Originally Posted by Jason2gs

By "complicated things", do you mean there's so much Sin in the world? That's not God's fault. It's humans' imperfection.

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Originally Posted by LordGregGreg

Fair enough.
Completely invalid. I could come right back and say "I belive in God because our world has so much complicated things"

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when i said "
But i don't believe in god because our world has so much complicated things"

I meant.
I do believe in God, but i don't believe in him over just saying our world is so complicated things. Such as the eye.
sorry, i was tired :).

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Originally Posted by oliver1205

I forgot the number but a TON of people went to Jesus's tomb 3 days earlier, and there was no body. This would explain that he rose to Heaven and would come back.

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Okay, yea i am not good at debating, but i have a question, if Jesus rose from his tomb, why would his whole body go? Wouldn't just his spirit? The people on earth who die, and say they go to heaven, their body's are still in their coffin, why would Jess's whole body go?

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Originally Posted by oliver1205

ok ill try to explain it. Its starts its mt stomach like a burning sensation, but it just feels awesome. idk its really hard to explain

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That's called thought, hope, fear, relief...

You think about God and when you think about him you think that will make you feel reassured hence you feel relief you feel.. good..

It is thought..

I can be scared of i dunno.. er.. spiders.. this huge tarantula comes real close to me and you FEEL scared

or when you are waiting for that Christmas present just before you open it you feel something.. these are all brain thoughts..

I never said (I think) that this argument should end. I simply said we will probably never get a conclusion relevant to the topic and body of the question, which is whether God exists (Well, its pretty much your question -- in reverse).

There are multiple theories on both sides, yet each one disproves each other constantly. The problem is such as if one is true, the other must not be true and can not be true (at least at the same time).


Thus, unless otherwise proven, I believe the answer is you must prove it to yourself. Since there is no proof for either side totally, it could be either or none.

@oliver - sounds like an orgasm...

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Originally Posted by isjusme

there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

I don't know where you got, Just for the sake of believing in it. Maybe i worded something wrong without noticing, too lazy to go back and check. I believe because I love him, that's how I was raised, and I don't want to go to hell.

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You are assuming that all these people wrote down there account immediately, leaving no time for forgetfulness or anything. You are assuming that no one lied. You are assuming that these people were actually there – just because you write or record or testify about something, doesn’t mean that you were actually there. The fact that hundreds of people saw him die, very nice, a man died, but there are only 500 people who saw him after he rose – which is the important part – and you have to figure out how many of those 500 people’s testimonies are accurate. Also, what is to stop anyone from tampering with written records, anyone can take a little scroll, read it, change some wording, and republish it. Anyone between those 500 people and today (including those 500 people) could have had agendas or biases of there own to influence their writing.

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Originally Posted by oliver1205

it is also faith. When i pray i know there is someone there watching over me, i can feel it. The Bible is also a very interesting book, heres an internet verison. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=6&version=31
i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.

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Here is the thing about the Bible. A single person did not write it, it was many people “inspired by God” and therefore would not be too complex to make up. Also, you may say, well if all these people have the same views, doesn’t that point to stronger evidence. Well the answer to that is a clear no, and here is why. In the Bible, it is divided into “gospels” each written by a different person. It is a well-known fact that there are MANY other gospels (not all of them are at all true or accurate, but a good number have just as much authenticity as the ones in the Bible). Many of these gospels as well as many within the Bible itself have contradicting passages.

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Originally Posted by andrewrox424

There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.

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For any number of reasons. God is God and therefore we are not able to understand how he thinks and how he makes decisions and how he works. Perhaps it was to test your faith. Perhaps because your new mother will tell you a particular thing that will change your life. The butterfly effect is constantly in motion in the world around us and only God can see the whole picture (if you think he exists, that is).

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Originally Posted by badandymitch

Okay, yea i am not good at debating, but i have a question, if Jesus rose from his tomb, why would his whole body go? Wouldn't just his spirit? The people on earth who die, and say they go to heaven, their body's are still in their coffin, why would Jess's whole body go?

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Good question that no one answered. Here is what the answer is according to Christian beliefs (correct me if I am wrong): This is because while any human can go to heaven in spirit, only the extremely holy and pious go with there body (aka resurrection). The only people who have done this are Jesus, Mary (the virgin mother) and MAYBE Saint Peter (not sure on that one, but I thought there was a third).

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This argument is pointless

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I think there is great purpose in this debate. For those who believe in God, every argument against your beliefs that you overcome is just strengthening your faith. For those who don’t believe in God, you are practicing debating and critical thinking skills and perhaps you will learn something that can change your life.

Just wanted to first say that everything in Science is a theory or hypothesis and not a fact. Fact is a word given to something that is true, but nothing can be completely true if it is in our world/dimension/universe etc.
Religion has survived for thousands of years because of lack of proof against it. It is impossible to disprove or prove God's existence with physical material, therefore it is impossible to prove a hypothesis valid. In this instance it is a matter of opinion rather than a fact, thus my post rolls together :)

I know I brought nothing to the table, but when the table is thousands of years old and crumbling beneath us, it would just be on the floor in minutes anyway :p