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Just ask yourself how can/cannot a deity such as God exist. I stopped believing in a god when I was 10, because I realized how impossible a god can be. If you choose to worship him fine, just don't do it without first evaluating the possibilities of one.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBlade
You make very good points. The funny thing is though, it seems that you refer to nature as a "being". Nature created life through trial and error. Nature had time to get the temperatures and pressures correct. Nature is responsible for the world that we now live in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel.Blaze
Now I ask you this. What is compelling nature to create life? Why is nature doing these things? Wouldnt there be a driving force behind it?
It seems pretty simple to swap out the "nature" with "god".
I'm a firm Christian.
But some things I've collected from reportings:
The Earth started as a fireball. It cooled, tiny organisms that were created from the transportation of craters, etc. were living. They grew as the earth became less sulfurous, etc. They grew, mutated, and created organisms as we know them today.
But, as I said. This is just one theory.
I'm Greek Orthodox.
And don't wanna believe in 20 other dimensions (string theory) just to become atheists...
Hot Damn. how can people believe in him?? if he is a god and he controls this world why doesn't he kill all the criminals? why are there criminals?if he made us then why did he put in the criminal aspect of us?look. shredderbeam on sythe said this once(roughly)"i can say 2+2 is 23 and i am not wrong because you have no proof it doesn't everyone believes it is 4" this applies with god just because millions believe in him doesn't mean he is real also.the one they call jesus why did he die? god controls everything? surely he could say "nah mate jesus aint dieing but your sins are all forgiven" and finally if god is so nice and helps you in life why did he create cancer? So cop that u fuckin idiots
okay well i dont believe in got but you have to respect everyones believes wether you like it or notQuote:
Originally Posted by OLDSCHOOLMACRO'ER
and remember what people have said before
apparently god put us on this planet to test us and see if we were good enough to go to heaven
i dont believe in god but if he did exist then that is why he hasnt killed all the criminals
besides they also say that god loves everyone no matter what they have done
so if he loves everyone (including the criminals) then why would he kill them?
~shut
He will kill all the criminals. Why should he do anything under your accord?
The first part of Zeitgeist ---> Stated that Jesus/God was probably made up by the Church.
If you believe it, I appreciate that. I have nothing against religious people. Its just when they knock on my door trying to convert me that I get annoyed.
Open a religous book and they might answer your questions about miracles.
-Bible //Christianity
-koran //Islam
-Torah //Judaisim
Probably those three most populated religions in the world try youtube they might have some vid's of miracles~ We need to be spiritual that is how humans are we have to have something to turn to in problems So if i tell you God is true otherwise we wouldn't need to live spiritually with emotions that is why someone had to create use~
Rather not get into things~LOL
http://www.villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24402
Got alot more way too tired. Let's put it this way, in short, I am no idiot, and i don't believe what i believe what i believe because of faith alone. I believe because science points to it. If you think otherwise, come out of the age of charles darwin and understand these three facts at least:
- the fossil record does not, nor has it ever helped darwin, which he said it would. Archeopterix was the closest fossil and it actually disproved it in the end.
- Darwin lived 100 years ago, and knew nothing about any DNA, cells, etc. He also questioned his theory numerous times, which you would know if you had read origin of the species (if you have great :)). He dismissed these all by saying that the future scientific discoveries would support it.
- Remember its the Theory of evolution. Not the law of evolution. So stop treating it like that. Science has in no way proved that or we wouldn't be having this debate.
Every single prominent scientist including kepler, newton, capernicous, and pythagorus, experts in all of their fields believed in a God, so your not stupid if you do. Including over 200 scientists who came up with a 127 page review of the problems with the theory of evolution. The truth of the matter is Darwin discovered micro evolution which is the evolution within a species. That is not refuted by any.
Remember these, soon I will post anything you need Yakman or anyone else.
By the way, looked two posts up. In short, GOd doesn't kill criminal etc, because he gave everyone a second chance by dying on the cross. Everyone should die and go to hell. Also he gave man the ability to decide for himself when he created. When he created man he gave him the ability to choose so they wouldn't be robots. So technically in the end God does get the last laugh or so to say, but he does give you a choice. that is your purpose in life is to make the right choice, kind of like a trial in a way. You can't kill the person charged just because they step in the courtroom accused of murder. He is a just God. So "cop on that"
some parts i completely agree with. It bothers me when people use law and theory interchangeably...they ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT the same thing. Evolution is a theory, even though i do believe in it. Theory's have solid scientific evidence but most things that many people consider laws are actually theories. Big Bang for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
Anyways back to what my post is really about. I am a Christian (Lutheran) and I also believe in evolution. Many of you are going WTF? right now but I will explain. Many of you will still be going WTF?, but this is what i believe.
As any of you who actually read the Bible know, God is not bound by time and space. This usually blows peoples minds, but it is what the Bible says. And as many of you non-religious types you usually point your finger at Genesis when God creates the Earth in 7th days. You guys are all like "OH NO HE DIDN...THATS NOT EVOLUTION!!! EVOLUTION IS LAW!!!!" which you are wrong on multiple points. Because I believe that yes He did (and evolution is not law). Going back to my previous statement about God not being bound by time and space, what is a day to God? A being that has no perception of time. I believe that he only split it up into days because He didn't know himself. He just split up what he did into 7 days to simplify matters for humans. It could have taken millions upon millions of years to make humans, but time has no effect on God. Simply put, Genesis in my opinion is true on that point.
/discuss
Of course, a chosen few do hold to your view. However let me state this fact. I have not seen one evidence for evolution that has not been dismantled. I believe in every fact that I personally deem the evidence is sufficient, INCLUDING THE BIG BANG. Modern theists most likely will hold to the view that the Big Bang did occur. However, if you have studied closely this information, you will know its that simple. Antimatter has been never been composed (as far as I know, I have heard it is, but have never seen any proof as well as on many thesaurus's, reading books on it, etc). Matter has been destroyed and created into energy, that space is not composed of antimatter however (or space without matter). However, even if I am wrong on this point, which I believe I am right, it would not refute the fact that a big bang doesn't just happen it needs a cause.
"In the beginning, God created light"
I believe that as awesome as God is, that is His work creating it through the Big Bang.
Let me come out and say I used to be an evolutionist. But like so many others, after reading "The Icons of Evolution", my views were dismanteled and I found the truth.
Let me go ahead and make my thread.
So pwnaz0r basically you have trouble accepting that something so complex as life could come about purely by chance?
So in other words, you're asking for God to come tell you himself that he is real?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
"I has a baseball"
Lmao... 'has'...
:sasmokin:
"God has real" "Oh yea prove it!" *God comes in, turns your left arm into like gold* "WHAT'S GOOD NIGGAA?!!!" "OH SHIT!!!"
Haha funny. Where did you find thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
I guess I'm that guy who can't prove it.
Not to be rude, but I'm the one with more evidence. I daresay if we engauged in an arguement, which I would be happy to do, you would not be thinking that way. Everything I believe is scientifically proven and completely against evolution. And if you would like to try me on for size, simply pm me. We'll make it a date :)
From my point of view, you are the one's who don't understand scientific facts, so its even :)
as far as i understand of your argument, you dont believe in anything that scientifically proven. You believe in God, whereas, your whole argument is based on disproving evolution. They're closely related, but disproving one does not prove the other.
Even then, you haven't disproved anything. You are just taking information that you learned from certain books and calling that fact. Its as much speculation (albeit probably with lots of logical and scientific research) as the other books that disagree and argue for evolution (that also probably have much of the same well researched ideas).
So you basically invented your own science, then. I don't mind you doing so (and I don't mind you believing you are right, everyone needs something to live for after all.), but don't come here telling the current science is wrong, or that I misunderstand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
From the scientific point of view, you are the one who is wrong.
You are however, free to believe you are not. A lot of religious people live and think that way. Not implying you are religious, didn't bother to read the entire thread.
More evidence? I read through some of your posts, and all I can see if stuff you believe to be true. No stuff that actually correspond with the current scientific laws. Unless you, however, make up your own Scientific laws.
I've tried to tell you this before... Most of the "proof" for both sides is just guesses and/or happy accidents. We still don't know if there is an atom or not, and we do not know if God exists. If I took and random bunch of facts I could find a way to prove anything on the "you don't know it doesn't exist" principal.
Actually it does yes. I actually spend most of my time disproving evolution, because nobody ever lets me prove anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Cardin
Ok facts about the universe I stand on for my beliefs:
If you don't know what these are (talking to anyone who claims they do know about evolution, not the innocent bystander :) ), then, and this is in no way meant to be prideful, but as they say "stand down", and let the people who have devoted at least some time and attention to this the "stand". I think it is unfair for you to side if you have no knowledge of these things, considering I have devoted 2 years of my life (on the side of course), studying and concluding.
- Fine Tuned Universe, if you don't know the facts for this, google. There are too many to list here, however there will be one on my thread.
- Most scientists of both parties conclude that the big bang occured and everything we know of was created. Matter, energy, etc was all created. I choose to belief the ludicris statement and mindset that it happened by itself. This brings us to the watch in the desert. No one looks at that watch and says "Well the sun must have melted the sand to create glass and over millions of years it was formed perfectly and then the mechanisms"etc, etc. No you say, wow what a beautiful watch, I wonder who made it. Its rediculous (misspelled). How much more mechanisms does the universe have, more than 500 billion times more.
- The Cambrian explosion. Where did all those life forms come from. Its like if we compare darwins tree of life to a foot ball field. On the 10 yardline, there is one animal, on the 20 y-l, there is 2... then we get the 90 yardline and suddenly there and a million...
- Human conscienceness in itself. Where did morals come from, who determines right from wrong..
- Irreducible Complexity
There must be about at least 10 other major things but I won't list them here. And on top of that, let's cut to the chase.. In two years of study of the subject from both angles, I have not found one scientific fact that is true about evolution not one. The fossil record supporting it has been disproved, if you think it hasn't you should claim ignorance now, because you haven't been keeping up to date. And on top of that, I have seen so many experiments conducted wrong (Miller - Urey experiment), and so many lies by scientists (Heckels drawings). AND ON TOP OF THAT, I have not found one person who has adequatly researched it as far as me, IN MY OPINION. If you are out there, please step forward. AND ON TOP OF THAT, this is personal for me. I see God's action in my own life. My family was recently struggling financial. We prayed for the longest time for how we would get the money to keep me in school. What happened? My dad's bank had been in a bind with the US economy down and since he hung in there, they sent him a check with just enough money to send me there the next year, about 2 days before. You may call this coinicidence but I have a thousand more and not kidding a thousand. When you interact with God on such a level as this, it is impossible to tell yourself he is not real, and that's why I'm so passionate about this, because I want others to understand what I see.
EDIT: I absolutely get annoyed because so many evolutionists have a bias that theists have no reason for believing what they believe and that science absolutely proves evolution, no exceptions. WRONG
Evolution does not just consist out of theories on the initial creation of the earth. I think those theories are far from accurate, because we simply don't know enough about the universe yet. Believing god made it however, is in my opinion ignorant and will never lead you to the real answer, which you will able to proof with facts. I choose not to believe any of these theories, as the one is ever more implausible than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
What I meant is that, you can't simply say something is true because some book claims it to be that way. I wouldn't even take it from a scientist, unless more than the majority of the scientist agrees with him (or her), and the scientist can come up with enough realistic arguments and facts.
About your personal experience, let me just say this.
If God exists, I find him very selfish helping you, instead of all the hungry children and grown-up's in Africa. It is plain unjust, and wrong.
Doesn't everyone deserve a fine life?
If God should only help people who pray/worship to him, I find him very selfish, and furthermore, hypocritical.
If an atheist lives a good live, does not rape, hurt or harm people, why does he have to go to this place called the 'hell'? Because he did not 'pray'?
Why can people (in some western-beliefs) donate some money to the church, pray once and pay off all their sins? Why is it very regular for priests to do "funny" things with children?
Why doesn't this God person strike the persons whom we all consider, bad. (Murderers, Thieves, Rapists, etc.) Why does this 'God' person let them wander around and go on with their daily business?
I could go on, but I won't. I think I've made my point, at least, for now.
Yes. And explain why he let's so many people suffer and die, while others live a life in luxury. (I call any house with water and electricity luxury.)Quote:
Originally Posted by IceFire908
God is in fact a jealous God, and has a right to be selfish. This is a hard point to explain but think about it. For humans, yes selfishness is wrong, but not God. He created everything. You are basing God's character on human standards, which is completely out of line, you are completely ignoring all other points and are in general basing your beliefs on morals. where did you get those??? Accordign to darwin, "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST". According to atheists, or evolutionists (maybe not all atheists), let them die! survival of the fittest. I believe pain is God's megaphone to the world. It's not unfair for to be selfish because everything is his. It's actually a quite hard concept to grasp unless you accept that there is a God. The fault in atheists, or why they will burn in hell, or because they think that they are just as good as God. They say, hey I don't need a God, because in my imperfect ways, I can explain a God, as they haven't! God made one rule, that man must accept him, and what did man do? complain...complain...complain... even when they would not even be here to complain without him. We are imperfect is the main point. God is a just God, and if you just obey Him, you will be fine. Also, those people in Africa, thats not God's fault it's ours. He gave us the commandment to give to the poor, and us the commandment to take care of your neighbor. How can we do that with a world so cold. Which brings us to just one of athiests circular reasonings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
People starving ---> God's fault ---> I shouldn't believe in him ---> I shouldn't do what he says --> People starving still.
God is not a genie in a bottle so to say. He also must abide by his own rules
Point being, stop blaming God for everything, we did this by ourselves. When you play the game of the universe with God involved, its a whole different set of rules. God has a right to be jealous, and we all deserve to go to Hell. He has been gracious to give us a second chance. We did this to ourselves, not God.
EDIT: I am ashamed of the catholic churchs behavior and beliefs, however this is only an arguement for Intellegent Design, you cannot group all religions as one.
Okay. So, how do you know God made one rule? How do you know God cares about you? How do you know God wants us to obey him? How do you know God is good, how can you even compare him to humans?Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
You could just as easily tell me God invented tea, because there is simply no proof whatsoever, that supports what you just said.
The bible? Written by humans. Flawed, and has been changed (partially rewritten) many times through history. So, you could say that the Human Mind invented God.
Which I never did. (in some western-beliefs)Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
After reading this, I am convinced that I will not be able to convince you of anything religion related at all. You can make up a nice story in your post, but you back it up with nothing, nil. You simply write down what you think, believe or something that has been written by humans. (God's only rule...?) Which is fine though, as long as you can live happily with those thoughts. There won't be anything after this live, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnaz0r
I am done. This leads (me) to nowhere, and I am only wasting my time writing these posts. ;)
EDIT: I believe God has a female-like shape. Why is this abstract creature always referred to as 'He'? Does God have a penis?
EDIT2: I enjoyed reading your posts and opinion, I just don't agree with them. :)
You say that "it's God and therefor you are basing your accusations on nothing because you are thinking like a human and cannot comprehend God" and then you go on to defend him and talk about what God wants and how God loves you. If we cannot comprehend how God thinks and what God wants then how can you do anything "in the name of God" an whatnot because you really have no idea what God wants because since you believe "he wants" to give us free will he will not interfere. Which is another contradiction since people thank him every day for helping them in one way or another.
as are you. Your morals are based upon what the Church tells you. It has been drilled into you since birth. what makes the Bible a valid, factual book?Quote:
are in general basing your beliefs on morals.
The only reason that Christianity is a valid religion is because it has people backing it up. Most people wouldnt even consider Christianity if it only had 10 people practicing it. I tried explaining this to my mom. That if Pastafarianism was the most prominent religion in the world and that her parents were Pastafarians, then she also would (very likely) be a Pastafarian. That she would completely disregard Christianity because it was a silly made up religion. She disagreed and told me that God would make sure she was a Christian and that she was destined to be one. People are brought up that way.
I know you are much less...biased i guess i would say...than her, but thats how many people think. and now that i read this third part i find that it doesnt really have all that much of a point :p, but ill leave it, because it took me a while to write and i think it still serves a purpose :).
EDIT: Wizzup is saying what i said in my first paragraph =D.
I liked talking about the scientific side of religion much much more...
My religion is solid and we all sorta believe in the exact same things. The Catholic church did muck up heaps think about the first crusade. What they did to trick all the knights into going to battle against the muslims. And in the bible itself Jesus said "you must love your enemy". So that kinda made the whole crusade pointless in terms of religion. So actually I think religion has caused more wars than it has resolved them.
There are many things science can't explaine but science is still as effective as ever and is explaining so much every day.
Never take away the possibility that god exists though.
I feel like I'm way too uneducated for this conversation.. :rolleyes: But...
I always look at science like this: We always peel back the current layer of science and try to prove how it occurs, why it occurs, etc. But, we never have found the origin of all these things. The Big Bang; did it just pop out of nowhere? The human brain; where do our thoughts come from?
Now I believe that science is true. I mean, we have pretty well proved a lot of "life's mysteries". However, I doubt that science will ever come to point where it can define the origin of something. The only origin seems to be: God :)
Just my 2 cents...
Someone explain to me the idea of the 'soul', and how evolutionists can account for it? Scientists have created clones, but they cannot clone the human soul. They don't even know what keeps the skin moist, and they admit it's the working of the soul. Tell me, then, how God can not be existent,
idk, well for starters : why do you assume God even gives a fuck? you really think God cares if some insignificant humans think their lifes are unfair?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
Just curious man.
The idea of the big bang started when we figured there was to much helium in the sun for the universe just to be created by a massive cloud of hydrogen. So something with enough energy could create all that helium and thats when we came up with the idea of the big bang...Quote:
Originally Posted by Infintry001
But if the Big Bang was the creation of the universe, what was there beforehand that could make it happen?
Thats were god comes in, and don't think as time as a constant.
Weird how everytime I say something, no-one answers.
Are you trying to say... If I destroy myself but someone recreates me exactly the same as I was before, I wouldn't be myself or it wouldn't feel like it?
No...I want to know how scientists believe that humans have a soul, yet they believe this soul was also created by science alone, and without God.Quote:
Originally Posted by newbiezkid
Link me up to where you found this.
Don't tell me you're denying the existence of a soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by newbiezkid
I want to know where you found that theoritcal physicist believe in the soul. Im not denying it.
Scientists as scientists cannot believe in the soul. Its not possible to have one (scientificly).
However, I'm sure that scientists as normal people surely believe in the soul =)
That's what I always thought is strange about science. It can't prove things that everyone knows is there. They can't prove how thought works, why we feel emotion, etc.
It was in a book, the name of which I can't recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by newbiezkid
As do I :). However, whenever we go from scientific fact to moral things like everything you are asking, doesn't that mean we are focusing on GOd's essence and being. I will admit not to know everything about Him, however, I do not think minds are fully capable of comprehending everything because we are all comfined by our own minds limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
However, In my opinion, and just be honest, not prideful. Are you not up against a wall because you are not stating any scientific facts to back up anything nor refuting any of mine, you are just contemplating things about God's nature with me, which I get all my reasoning from the Bible. However, If you would like to discuss this, we can. I however am just making a case for a creator, not neccissarily that my view is right.
Yes humans wrote the Bible, but God influenced every single word. The Bible has never been partially rewritten. Parts have been taken out, during a meeting of over 500 common theists. However, when this meeting occured they translated the Bible from Greek (or latin :P one of the two), into english. All 350 of them came within 5 words or so throughout the whole Bible. Now think of how long the Bible is, can you really believe that 350 people all did this and came within 5 words (and the 5 words were not even significant, liek the)
I personally know that God cares because of what the Bible says (which He did influence, he would not let His word be corrupted. Remember that very Godly men wrote the Bible.) and because of Jesus, who did die on the cross and did raise. I can prove that by a few reasons, but you will actually have to use reason. It might not be as strong an arguement as I have for I.D., but it holds for me, because I was already past the point I knew there was a creator when I started looking at religions. So I looked within them and this was the strongest. However, I will not discuss that here on the thread, seeing as whenever you go from being a Intellegent Designist, to a Christian, alot of people jump on you. So if you want those reasons, just for knowledge why I do believe in Christianity, feel free to PM me
EDIT: I also know God cares because of the example I gave earlier and many more. Use knowledge, my friend. Why would He create us if he didn't want us there. If He was going to hate us, he might as well not create us at all.
EDIT 2: Dan, I have to say that I actually did laugh at the second half of your post. It is so biased in one direction and it most certainly is not beacked up with any facts and misinterprets my whole thought basis and religion.
However, I do think Inifitry has the idea :)