'Thou shall not kill'

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Originally Posted by rogue poser

you obviously missed the pun. kosher is related to jews. the pun was about the enmity held by the the muslim community to those of the jewish faith, just look at the middle east.

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Mate, thats a loose association at best...

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kill people who dont believe you? very peaceful indeed

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Are you really going to make me go into the old testament... In terms of perceived intolerance these quotes from Islam and the quotes I could easily produce from the Old Testament are bedfellows.

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My experience at the mosque was one of inequality between men and women, and frankly i found it very disrespectful. another woman from my college class went to the mosque to get extra credit, and she was in her car trying to leave the parking lot. There were 4 men chatting standing in her way. They noticed she was there and continued talking, without an attempt to get out of her way. At first i thought it was kinda funny, because thats something kids do to piss people off, but these were grown men...

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Ah, see this is a CULTURAL problem, not a spiritual one. Traditionally in cultures across the globe women have been "less". Just as black people (and women, and Mexicans, and Chinese, annnnd the Japanese etc etc) were, and in some ways still are, "less" in the United States. As a culture, the west cannot claim to have no blood on their hands. "Dirty Negroes" and women being lesser is the same shit, different medium. Or say... those filthy job stealing Mexicans?

Hindsight is 20/20...

Never mind the fact that you have no idea who they are, where they come from, or why they are here. Intolerance will be met with equal or greater intolerance. After 9/11 there were cases of people attacking Sikhs. They thought they were Islamic, or just knew they came from "over there".

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i would classify myself as a Christian, but not of any denomination. I do not believe in eternal hell, nor do i believe in much of the end time propaganda spread by the organized church. I could use the etymology's of hebrew and greek words along with a concordance to explain in detail why i do not believe many of the mainsteam Christian beliefs, but your point of asking that pointed question was to lump me in with the masses that you see as mindless sheep.

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Actually, I was trying to get an idea of where you come from on a cultural and spiritual basis... not to lump you in with anything. If we both speak the same language, communication will be greatly aided, so to speak.

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4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.

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I would say there is more than one way to do 'battle', the least of which is violence.

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Originally Posted by Ruroken

Now the question is, how does God/Buddha/Hare Krishna/Yahweh feel about that? No where in any scared text I have ever read does G/B/HK/Y say anyone should die (with the *possible* exception of the Old Testament. Note: I say GOD here, not prophets/spiritual leaders/"interpreters"... human error is a bitch :p).

That quote points to a great ill in today's western religion and base philosophy.

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Doesn't the fact that the Old Testament contains this contradictive bullshit completely defeat the object of the commandment.

Thou Shall Not Kill...

But Stone your wife if she has an affair.
Stone your son if he doesn't follow your commands.
Stone your neighbour if he doesn't believe in god.
Stone gay people.

Its pretty pathetic that people haven't sort of opened their silly eyes. If the Old Testament was the word of God, why feel the need to change and modify it for present day..

Because the religion need's to fit in with so people will follow it..
I think if anyone truely, hand on heart follows a religion, they should be able to tell me the in's and out's about it and have a bloody good reason to follow it..

and I can't see that in any religion, I repeat ANY religion.

As for your "killing" being "promoted" check out Fitna when you get a minute..

http://www.themoviefitna.com/

Thanks! :):rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ruroken

I feel that killing someone in any case is not permissible. Not to drag this off topic, but it comes down to choice (among other things). When you kill someone, you make a choice for them. A very, very big choice. A choice that was never yours to make. You also make a choice for yourself, you choose to kill a fellow human and all that comes with it. This is why suicide is not the same as murder, it is your choice to make. Now if that choice is the right one or not is a different question. You still kill a human, and all that comes with it.

Now you might say that the other person made his or her choice when he or she committed whatever act that made you feel you had the right to kill him or her. Perhaps they killed and raped a child. A heinous act by anyone's standards. Did the child "deserve" to die? No. But neither do they. Lock them away for the rest of their lives, do what you have to do to sleep at night with the exception of torture or murder. I feel that making someone live after doing that is far worse then killing them. Imagine one day waking up and realizing the significance of what you had done, and then having to live with that.

This works both ways, because the day YOU wake up and realize the significance of what you've done, you need to live with that for the rest of your life. It's true you may never get it, and live blinded, but its quite the risk...

People often forget, in their misplaced righteous anger, that abusers were abused. Commiters of violent crimes are not objects of hatred, but pity. A few horrible life experiences is all that separates you from them, if even that much.

And as for people coming at you with knives and such, "fighting for ones life". Do you honestly need to kill them to get away safely? Nope.



In my opinion? Absolutely. Do as the Buddhists do, live your life while trying to kill a little as absolutely necessary. For instance, when you boil water, microorganisms die. Now boiling water is somewhat of a necessity, so one must realize that one cannot live life without taking it to some degree.

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Why do I always state my opinion in the wrong way :p
I was trying to say god allows the government to set-up armies to keep world peace, and if needed to kill someone, BUT I prefer nobody is going to die.
I am against killing, you know.

Like Ruroken said:
You can kill with a God's name or the God tells you to kill is a big difference.
My only and truthfulness God doesn't wants to get people killed, he just want justice and he lets governments with their armies do it, that doesn't approve all actions of the governments since they are human, they can still make the wrong decisions.

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Originally Posted by samm

Its pretty pathetic that people haven't sort of opened their silly eyes. If the Old Testament was the word of God, why feel the need to change and modify it for present day..

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You falsely assume God and humanity are static.

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As for your "killing" being "promoted" check out Fitna when you get a minute..

http://www.themoviefitna.com/

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Yeah, because leading by example is NEVER a good idea :rolleyes:

Believe in this and all will be well.

@Ruroken

How is the enmity and hostility from the muslim community in the surrounding Israeli territory a loose association to my pun... car bombings?
thats a bit more than a "loose association"

Like i said, i dont follow many mainstream Christian beliefs, so that means nothing to me. You did not dispute the fact that these verses in the koran encourage violence and murder, you simply attempted to shift some sort of burden of proof on me, assuming i adhere to the preconceived image you have of my belief system

The fact is, these verses encourage violence. That was my point, and those verses proved it. You have yet to dispute that fact.

Their intolerance and treatment toward women is based on the koran. The koran says that women are worth half a man... in addition it says you can have 4 wives, and that rubbing your hands in dirt is cleaner than touching a woman... Are these not a result of spiritual teachings? Their treatment of woman has nothing to do with their belief system?

Religions made just to control people with fear, so they'll do what the church says. Nowadays it's just an easymode for thinking.

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Originally Posted by rogue poser

@Ruroken

How is the enmity and hostility from the muslim community in the surrounding Israeli territory a loose association to my pun... car bombings?
thats a bit more than a "loose association"

Like i said, i dont follow many mainstream Christian beliefs, so that means nothing to me. You did not dispute the fact that these verses in the koran encourage violence and murder, you simply attempted to shift some sort of burden of proof on me, assuming i adhere to the preconceived image you have of my belief system

The fact is, these verses encourage violence. That was my point, and those verses proved it. You have yet to dispute that fact.

Their intolerance and treatment toward women is based on the koran. The koran says that women are worth half a man... in addition it says you can have 4 wives, and that rubbing your hands in dirt is cleaner than touching a woman... Are these not a result of spiritual teachings? Their treatment of woman has nothing to do with their belief system?

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Hm, your right, I wasn't clear. (Your also partially right).

I was simply trying to point out that Christians are not at all as violent in the west (despite what the old testament has to say), in this day and age, despite how fundamentalist they are. There may still be the odd one, but for the most part they are tolerant to the point of not knocking people about. Why could the Islamic people not be the same way?

Yes these passages, as many passages throughout history allow for loopholes in the conscience so that people may be justified in killing. Does that mean that they are necessarily listened to? Does that mean that every Islamic person is inherently violent? No.

As for women, yes this is an issue, but one that is being addressed. Canada is running a big campaign right now with the message "women have rights here". In bus stops and such. Its a problem of education.

I just find your backhanded branding of a group as violent to be rather harsh and quick judgment of your fellow man. I suppose a lot of people are a little racist. And as for the pun... its still pretty loose in the context you put it in originally.

I'm done, because we do not have a true dialogue. Your hate is your problem, and I'm sorry it has to be that way. Absolute arguments and fundamentalism never got anyone anywhere good.

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Originally Posted by 99_ aka ian.

Believe in this and all will be well.

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NOOOO I GET A DNS ERROR! WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME!!!!

night.

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Originally Posted by ZaSz

NOOOO I GET A DNS ERROR! WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME!!!!

night.

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lol the church of google gives you a DNS error, you must be a yahooligan

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Originally Posted by TomTuff

lol the church of google gives you a DNS error, you must be a yahooligan

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I had no need to do that, but i just did...

Yes Google can be a major pain at times, but i see no real problem with it.

Google can be a pain at times. That is, if you can't type, don't have good internet, have a slow computer, or fail at internet searchage. Usually it is pretty great.