Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkwardsaw
NO!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkwardsaw
NO!!!
^ That doesn't explain your views. Elaborate? :)
Then the basic stance of this whole movement represents your beliefs. Reaching for our potential rather than letting money get in the way of what we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingarabian
how does this not sound like a scam/cult for detached bourgeois suburbanites in any context.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Garrett3
this adamant belief in 'science' not being a religion. heres a great example. its the same reason why people who havent done drugs inherently think theyre bad. why are they badto them? because all of this irrefutable proof 'science' has given them. theyve never done anything for themselves but thats okay! because science is there to explain it all!
tons of irrefutable evidence for that happened in a very relative context: http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56437
you can manipulate test results and data and everything scientific just as you can manipulate the word of god or the fucking flying spaghetti monster. People use the false pretense of science to get you to do shit all the time. what about shit like eugenics? and all of the shit you heard in your 11th grade history class about people in the 19th and 20th centuries using false science to prove the inferiority of other races and such? its still happening as i live and breathe! open your fucking stupid eyes man. its all the same thing. a tool to manipulate idiots, and fools; the weak.
Because it's not about money at all. >_> And many other things.
please read it again i edited it pretty exstensively and am kind of defeating the purpose now
pretty valid points. i think.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...gress_logo.png
what a glorious fruit scientific endeavor can bear
Your comparisons make no sense, just sayin.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackelvis
First, you take a quote, put it out of context, and continue flaming with little actual knowledge about what you're talking about (you don't even understand the movement), use a couple big words, swear some for the added effect I'm guessing, then call me a fool, and weak. But after reading this post twice, I still have no idea what point you're trying to get at. That I'm an idiot? That everyone who wants a better future that isn't run by a central bank is an idiot? That every single person who doesn't want their lives to be ruled by people who try to make more money is an idiot? I really don't see any evidence behind that.
You tried to make a point though, and as any good debate should go, I will attempt to prove to you that you are in fact the "Weak" or "Idiot" or "Fool". Whichever you would prefer.
You have said that science is telling people what to do. But in saying this, you actually make yourself look like a complete tool, because you have both not seen the videos expressing the views of people involved in this movement, but you are also stating the opposite views of the people here. They aren't saying "this is what happened, deal with it". Change is the desired effect that will come from this. Why can't you wrap your head around it? People who want an honest life that isn't governed by the people who just want to make a profit aren't retarded, so maybe you can (once again) get off your fucking high horse and stop being so ignorant. Thanks
i think they make i lot of sense, i was comparing the similarities of science and religion and how thy can be used to manipulate. can they not? can you address this major point in my arguement? that science, just as religion, can be used to manipulate?Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Garrett3
Science and religion can be used to manipulate. As can just about anything in life. I don't see what you're getting at? The point of the Zeitgeist movement is not to say that religion is the one source of deceit in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackelvis
E: To solve some of your knowledge issues, perhaps take a look at wikipedia. Though it's a terrible source usually, the basics of the movement are there, and you may understand what it means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zeitgeist_Movement
well that was my main point and the breadth of my argument because this is where i got my info
which is suppose is a little more than watery. but i mean how can you buy this? anything this guy is pushing: liberal hegemony, the fallacy of religion, the truth behind 9/11. I have no idea. But i can guarantee you. I can swear on my honor this man is no revolutionary. that nothing will come of this. that this movement is a sham, a ruse, a fluke. its not happening anywhere, noone is holding secret meetings, noone is forming political parties noone is advocating for the cause. youve never heard about it on the news or on tv or in the paper. no one credible has even mentioned it. do you think all the world leaders wake up and think 'oh fuck! the zeitgeist movement' some fuck with a PhD who has never done anything notable for anyone? nigga please! come on you have got to be kidding me! be realistic! this isnt even grass roots! its not roots at all! its a fucking dirty patch!Quote:
Originally Posted by gerauchert
He's not pushing that, the first movie was a presentation he put together and showed at a meet for the movement once, which was then turned into a video. Apparently a new film is coming out in October which is going to clearly state the goals of the movement.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackelvis
Here they are (off wikipedia, in case you didn't see my edit)
Concepts advocated by the Zeitgeist Movement
Which all seem like good ideas. He has a practical idea for something which could end up as close to a utopia as we have ever seen.Quote:
* No money: money creates established institutions that are forced to protect themselves which inhibits progress[8].
* Automation: Automation is more productive than human labor and frees mankind from repetitive and tedious tasks[9].
* Artificial intelligence: Machines are needed to make decisions objectively, unlike humans who are susceptible to personal projections, desires or bias. Machines are also needed to store and retrieve information because humans have a limited capacity for memory.[10].
* Technological unification of the globe: Globally shared technology is required to monitor planetary resources[11].
* Scientific methodology: Planetary government is obligated to methodology not individuals. Governing decisions are arrived at through scientific method, not belief[12].
* No property: Property is wasteful and unsustainable.[13].
* Sustainable city systems:Belief in a unified systems approach. Systems theory and a systemic approach for a self-sustaining globe and culture can be modeled on a smaller scale with a city-size system[14]
There are 400 000 people active in the movement apparently so far. It's far from nothing. They aren't holding secret meetings, rather they have open meetings, as a grassroots organization would. The two videos they have produced have won awards, this isn't going unnoticed by people.
You are incorrect in a lot of ways.
Also, this is not a single man. Stop calling the Zeitgeist Movement a "him." Thanks.
Anyway, the point of this is to say that we could be doing better as humans, which we can. It also supports equality. How terrible is that!? OH GAWD EQUAL RIGHTS! NOOOOOOO! On top of that, they way you think that anything can be solved is idiotic, and very contradicting. You're making yourself look like an ignorant kid. Nobody has to hold secret meetings. Nobody has to form a political party. And why would it need to be in the news? I hope you know that the news is supposed to be completely unbiased, so this most likely wouldn't be allowed to be on the news. And, again, it's not just "some f**k with a PhD;" (the punctuation for that seems incorrect) this is a group of ideas that have been spoken of by many intelligent people (people that were on the news, which obviously means they're correct, right?).
And, earlier you posted a quote by Gandhi about seeing the change in yourself. I dunnooo, but I don't think you're that kind of person in the slightest, by saying that this doesn't have enough publicity to be truthful.
(Also, I hope you know that Scientology is ridiculous, yet it gets much much more publicity than this. Huh. How could that be? Wouldn't Scientology need to be important and a powerful thing to get coverage?)
alright well when you live in your planned community away from ugly scary black/mexican/arab/chinese/indian/whatever ideas and theres no money or white-anglo-etc cultural anxieties and all of the worlds problems are fixed send me a post card that says 'i told you so' change yourself. not the world. i really quit this time i promise. nothing is unsaid.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Garrett3
this movement isnt even going to really start until the current system fails(or gains enough publicity, and people actually get brains, unlikley though). which can be anywhere from tomorrow or a century.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackelvis
so in the mean time buy my book omg so obvious!!!!!!!!!!!!
wat?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackelvis
this seems like a debate upon the state of human nature: hobbes vs rousseau. :D
have to admit, i am in agreeance with Hobbes
I agree with both, to some extent. The only thing that I can think about is children. But maybe make another thread about Hobbes and Rousseau. :3
Blackelvis, did you read below?
Quote:
Originally Posted by i luffs yeww
god i sure hope im hobbes
Alot of it is aimed at specific "cliches" (cultures/intelligence levels) of people/society, because it encompasses alot of elements, but that's not neccessarily a bad thing. I agree with the principles behind it, not all of the specifics but thats because he uses alot of hyperbole/targeted information and attempts to predict how the coming enlightenment/social revolution will play out - in reality, thats just one possible permutation and there will be differences - but some people need to see an end result to see how messed up the current situation is. That's the main point of the movie, to show explicitly that society could be a LOT better. Which alot of people don't recognise (yet).
blackelvis: The director of the movie knows the things you're saying, but rather than draw a conclusion immediately about the movie and whole concept based off some low-level trickery, ask why did the director utilise those ploys and it will all make sense. :)
"The movement by Joseph's own admission isn't functional in any real capacity[19]. Joseph states that better organization is still needed which will be facilitated by more focused people, and more central organizers. As of April 20, 2010 the Zeitgeist Movement was officially not accepting any funding[20]."Quote:
Originally Posted by blackelvis
Blackelvis...
You talk a lot about how Science can easily manipulate people but you never once gave a credible reason WHY they would do this. If you look at the goals of this movement and the Venus Project you'll see that there would be no point...
If you are making the argument that they are just doing it to play on our emotions to make money on books, dvd's, and donations then you are being ridiculous. Think about it. We still live in a monetary system... how else would this movement or ANY organization for that matter be able to reach out to the public without money to fund them? If they were so bent on making money out of us they would not give away so much free information... think about it. I was able to watch two different movies, each about 2 hours long. I was able to read a free e-book about this provide by the site. I watched a 2 hour presentation about the movement. All for free.
Also if you take a look at the founder of the Venus Project, Jacque Fresco, he has been doing this his ENTIRE LIFE (hes in his 90's now). Does he seem like he is a corrupt, filthy rich man who is just full of lies and deceit? Look at his credentials.... you laugh at the futuristic models and other things that are on the site, but you have to understand that he ACTUALLY DESIGNED AND BUILT some of these things already (keep in mind that the shit required to build all of that isnt free). What would be his motivation to manipulate people about this?
You talk about why we haven't heard about this in the news or anywhere...
Think about it. Who funds the media? Thats right the corporations. Who holds the monetary power in this world? Oh yeah the corporations. Who doesn't want to see their current power disappear? You guessed it the corporations. Why in the HELL would they support a movement calling for the abolition of the monetary system, their entire source of power...
Damn dude. Its all pretty logical... I don't seem to get how you can think this is some sort of cult. I was raised in the Jehovah's Witness faith... I have first hand experience of what a cult is like. Cults keep you ignorant of the world around you. They make you believe that this way is the ONLY true way to live. Everything in science contradicts that. Science encourages new ideas to challenge existing theories and laws. Science encourages free thought and abstract ideas to solve problems. What cult today does anything like this?
End this ignorance man.
Can I just plainly add that We people need to do something that will occupy our time, otherwise we will do some crazy things to satisfy that need (war, arguments, new religion, manage a forum etc).
I come to this conclusion from the worst enemy of survival, bordom.
^ But something to do can simply be nothing. Kinda like "if anything is possible, then that leaves there to be a possibility of something being impossible." Paradox, pl0x? :)
But you do raise a good point, and it's the same reason that I don't think that ADHD is an actual "disorder" of any sort. I think it is merely our society making people need to be acting upon something at all times (I have been faking "ADHD" for this school year to get into a class with others with "ADHD," as I find it interesting (and it gets me out of a fifth period class :D), and I've definitely noticed that they act different. But I haven't yet figured out if they act different because they told their different or if they have something different about them).
Something can be nothing, as nothing can be something. Depends on how far down the fine details you wish to go.Quote:
^ But something to do can simply be nothing. Kinda like "if anything is possible, then that leaves there to be a possibility of something being impossible." Paradox, pl0x?
(eg. 1/10^10000... We consider that zero cuz its just so tiny... but in essance, # > 0, thus it is something. Something that's nothing, get it? :).
For you I guess, you like to enjoy yourself more rather than doing actual assigned work. Loitering about sure is doing something (thinking, relaxing, pacing), even though that something is close to nothing. Therefore it's not a paradox...
*Bordom also leads to many great discoveries :D... and crimes xD
(your ADHD story gives me second thoughs on some students that i've met >.<)
:p I'm sure my ADHD watchfulness isn't very common. I just enjoy studying people (>_> I read textbooks in my free time). And I was saying that "if anything is possible, then that leaves there to be a possibility of something being impossible." is a paradox, not what you said. :)
And I wouldn't say I enjoy myself (ha) rather than doing work. I would rather help anyone than myself. And I do my work and everything. :) I'm only on here during school because I've nothing to do.
I agree with the boredom aspect, but is it because of human nature? Or is it due to the fact that we have been conditioned to do these things?Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpickle
to make some god damn money why else? to be famous? to be remembered? to have some sort of ever-lasting manifestion on earth? its not out of his benevolence; he is not providence. this whole whatever movement/book/movie/guy/omniscient being , whatever you want to equate it to, is based upon false intentions. he hasnt done anything except tell a lie to a bunch of idiots. its just a bunch of buzz words and generalized crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Claw
Did you read anything that I said?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackelvis
I mean really... you have no supporting logic with your arguments at all. I could sit here all day saying YEAH VENUS PROJECT IS AWESOME!!! ANYONE WHO THINKS DIFFERENTLY IS RETARDED!!!! But thats not anyway to make a valid point now is it? How old are you dude? Because intellectually you sound like a 12 year old...
Grow up and make some intelligent points or gtfo.
Yeah I just replied to "But something to do can simply be nothing." because your example statement just contradicts itself.Quote:
if anything is possible, then that leaves there to be a possibility of something being impossible." is a paradox
"If everything is possible"... That ultimately means nothing is impossible, therefore leaving no possibilities of something being impossible, therefore no paradox... Therefore I was confused and simply disregarded your example statement xD.
I persoanlly think boredom is human nature. It encourages an organism to do something, to change its surroundings in a much more unpredictable manner than just physics and rocks forming.Quote:
I agree with the boredom aspect, but is it because of human nature? Or is it due to the fact that we have been conditioned to do these things?
Thus leads me to purpose of life. I beleive the purpose is to make change of the regular "events" of nature. Organism's purpose is pretty much to make things a little more interesting, more colourful through their varied physical and mental properties. Boredom encourages the organism to act one way or another, making that change. Thus, boredom becomes a natural aspect of humans and other organisms too.
Very interesting, I never looked at it that way. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpickle
I guess as long as we continue to educate ourselves as a species we can use that "boredom" for the benefit of the world instead of war and destruction...
I'd disagree about the purpose of life is to not be bored, although the purpose of life leads to excitement (usually). But whatever. :) (And I think think "Anything is possible" is a paradox. :p)
And I agree with gerauchert. Blackelvis you really haven't shown any sort of logical proof to your point. Not even past things that have been attempted to do like this that were really scams. That would make you sound more mature.
poop poop poop
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/do...verything.html
Just found this. It is a lecture by the late Douglas Adams (THHGTTG). Though not neccesarily directly related, it reveales profound insides about our time and place, wrapped in a hilareously funny and moving story. He puts things in a proper perspective IMHO. Takes 1 .5 hours, so you really need to sit down and listen.
Thanks for sharing this! Amazing. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by WT-Fakawi
I Like the ideas behind it, but I don't ever see it working honestly. Looks good on paper, but in practice I think it'll flop as badly as Communism. Because we are human, and humans are greedy and self centered. "There is always that asshole who has more than you and rubs it in your face."
Trying not to do an epic gravedig, but the mechanics and properties of this project is so very insightful (finally did some indepth reading >.<). I'm also at the same time reading & watching part of the video @
http://www.pointbite.com/2008/10/08/...-project-hoax/
I'm going to be discussing about this in my english class today (since it's 1am xD), and use some pointers in this partiular thread posted last year as guidelines to engage the class with.
Anyways, TY so very much gerauchert for posting this up, and everyone who've discussed, with their hearts, about this.
Np man, let me know how that discussion goes in your class. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpickle
I was relating it to shakespearian times.
The points I connected between The Venus Project and it are:
1600s: Most Powerful group/individuals were public figures. Controling.
Today: Most Powerful group/individuals are hidden figures. Controling.
1600s: Slavery existed, visible to public
Today: Slavery exists, "invisible" to public
1600: Government Most Powerful
Today: Corporations Most Powerful.
I started by playing a clip from a guy (dunno his name >.<) who talks about how man is brutal,violent, aggressive... and builds society along those lines. Discussed the meaning of that to the class (60% of whom are doing work from other classes).
- We are "evil" and we build a society around "evil".
Next I started going thru the clip and explaining it, especially the part about Modern Money Mechanics. At the same time, I'm also relating this to the Elizabethan Era. Every problem, issue, causes of concern highlighted in the past society is the same as today's.
Discussed
- Corporates vs kings vs presidents/primeministers/etc
- Economic Hitman vs assasins
- Slaves vs economic slaves
- debt
- interest
- "instant money"
- hidden tax.
- Benefit of a few.
By the end of the class, there was only one guy who wan't paying attention, he was sleeping. hehe, thick stuff for everyone in the morning.
Anyways, everything went very well. People weren't bored cuz I actually engaged them and asked for opinions. The most interesting thing that did happen:
Me: "What do you all think about slavery? Is it better, worse, the same as the past?"
Classmate:"Slavery is gone, well mostly. But in our democratic society, everyone is treated equally.".
Me: "Really? how equally?"
Classmate:"Well, we all have rights. Women gained rights, we can vote, we decide our future."
I told this particular person that they have not been exposed to reality yet. Then goes that "mind blowing" explination of "economic slavery vs traditional slaves"
Damn dude very nice. Glad it went well for ya. It takes some guts to talk about that stuff in class so props to ya bro :sasmokin: