IRC Requests and Complaints.

Considering many #srl operators are also staff here on the forums, I will place this thread here.

This thread is dedicated to the requests placed by the members of our #srl irc channel located on irc.rizon.net, and only #srl. Do not request anything, or complain about anything if it is not relevant to #srl and the people with which it contains.

The range of issues to be taken here lie from extreme operator abuse to bot requests, and above and beyond.

To kick start this thread, I will bring forth an issue of late that has gathered quite a resonance - the irc bot 'Arkeo', run by #srl operator Hobbit. One of Arkeo's many features is to log messages sent to the channel and make them publicly available through Hobbit's personal website TheHDD. Many irc users have expressed privacy concerns regarding the pubic display of their messages, despite the fact that it is illegal for Hobbit to retain information (including chat logs) of minors without parental permission under the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act of 1998. Logging of the channel can easily cease, however Hobbit has failed to reply to any queries regarding the cease of logging.

It's kind of senseless to cite COPPA since it's an US law and Hobbit lives in Canada.

Edit: Also, this thread is silly. Hobbit, stop being a dick. Give people the ability to opt-out.

Edit: Also, I doubt anyone on #SRL is under the age of thirteen.

Well, Hobbit is Canadian and therefore COPPA does not apply to him. The server he hosts TheHHD on, however, is in the US and does apply to that.

Nonetheless, it isn't about the laws and legality of it. The fact is that many people have expressed that they do not want the bot in the channel, and Hobbit completely ignores these. In fact, we have had not one, but four operators kick Arkeo out of the channel, and yet he still brings him back.

Frankly, I want it gone, and I'm not alone in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by NxTitle

Well, Hobbit is Canadian and therefore COPPA does not apply to him. The server he hosts TheHHD on, however, is in the US and does apply to that.

Nonetheless, it isn't about the laws and legality of it. The fact is that many people have expressed that they do not want the bot in the channel, and Hobbit completely ignores these. In fact, we have had not one, but four operators kick Arkeo out of the channel, and yet he still brings him back.

Frankly, I want it gone, and I'm not alone in my opinion.

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Hobbit's ownership of the server located in the US does require him to follow US law. If not, there can always be extradition to the USA for trial and all the politics that follow suit, etc.

That's not how it works. If he hosts a server in the US, he doesn't have to all of a sudden follow both canadian and US laws as a being.

The information collected in the IRC logs is COPPA compliant. Read it before trying to cite it.

Also when users calmly and maturely brought concerns to my attention I proposed solutions to rectify them. Solutions that I am currently putting in place, one of which is making the logs more secure.

I'm on your side on this Noidea.

But why not have SRL create a new set of IRC rules, that sets an age limit. Then any user who joins the IRC channel is saying that they are that certain age limit and then he can log as much as he wants.

Discussed in this forum here as well here:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/93...on-irc-issues/

and this is there rules:

http://www.neowin.net/ircrules

I'm just saying, Hobbit can easily evade the lawsuit if there are rules set in place for the IRC on a certain age limit such as maybe '14' to join the irc, then he can log as much as feels.

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Originally Posted by Hobbit

The information collected in the IRC logs is COPPA compliant. Read it before trying to cite it.

Also when users calmly and maturely brought concerns to my attention I proposed solutions to rectify them. Solutions that I am currently putting in place, one of which is making the logs more secure.

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Or how about the logs just get deleted because no one wants them there except for you? :confused:

Its simple.

Just don't join that irc, and create a new one without a bot.

It's not like you guys weren't notified that its getting logged.

Everyone knows it stores logs, so if there is something that you don't want to say to get logged don't say it.

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Originally Posted by Overtime

Its simple.

Just don't join that irc, and create a new one without a bot.

It's not like you guys weren't notified that its getting logged.

Everyone knows it stores logs, so if there is something that you don't want to say to get logged don't say it.

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We should have to find a new channel because of a single person being a jerk?

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Originally Posted by Hobbit

The information collected in the IRC logs is COPPA compliant. Read it before trying to cite it.

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Under section 1303.a.1: I would call collecting the personal messages directed at a single channel, not publicly (anyone not in the channel at the time), collecting personal information. I would also say that you very-well know it is easy for a child - anyone under 13, as described by COPPA - to access irc, and then be logged unknowingly.

I hate saying shit that when i say it, its gonna end up when someones googles something they can find out what i said.. At least make the logs private

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Originally Posted by noidea

Under section 1303.a.1: I would call collecting the personal messages directed at a single channel, not publicly (anyone not in the channel at the time), collecting personal information. I would also say that you very-well know it is easy for a child - anyone under 13, as described by COPPA - to access irc, and then be logged unknowingly.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1303.a.1

[...]in a manner that violates the regulations prescribed under subsection (b).

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The way in which Arkeo collects logs does not violate the regulations.

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* Hobbit (~hhd@The.HHD) has joined #SRL
<Hobbit> I suck cock for money.
<Hobbit> I take ass shots and also do DP
<Hobbit> email me for more info
<Hobbit> chris.hobbs@hotmail.com
* Hobbit has quit (Quit: leaving)

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Saw this on the IRC a while ago, anyway I am glad things like that get logged. :/

Whats the fuss? If you don't want anyone to read how you embarrass your selves, don't act like an idiot on IRC, behave and act as you would on real life. That should solve the problem, when everyone writes mature text, behaves, there should be no problems with the logs. There are many logging bots on QuakeNET and no one has ever complained about them. One solution would be that Arkeo could send a message to everyone that joins, and inform that it is a bot that is logging the channel. If someone doesn't want to be logged, they could simply part. I just don't understand how someone dares to complain about this, I would be embarrassed if I would complain about this.

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Originally Posted by Jason2gs

Edit: Also, this thread is silly. Hobbit, stop being a dick. Give people the ability to opt-out.

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This is a possible solution.

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Originally Posted by Frement

Whats the fuss? If you don't want anyone to read how you embarrass your selves, don't act like an idiot on IRC, behave and act as you would on real life. That should solve the problem, when everyone writes mature text, behaves, there should be no problems with the logs. There are many logging bots on QuakeNET and no one has ever complained about them. One solution would be that Arkeo could send a message to everyone that joins, and inform that it is a bot that is logging the channel. If someone doesn't want to be logged, they could simply part. I just don't understand how someone dares to complain about this, I would be embarrassed if I would complain about this.

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This is better. The problem is that Arkeo is not an ``official'' bot. And to be honest, we don't really need an official bot. I mean, half of the users in the channel already have autologging on. What's the big deal? That all the logs are available to everyone. That's the big deal. :)

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Originally Posted by Frement

Whats the fuss? If you don't want anyone to read how you embarrass your selves, don't act like an idiot on IRC, behave and act as you would on real life. That should solve the problem, when everyone writes mature text, behaves, there should be no problems with the logs. There are many logging bots on QuakeNET and no one has ever complained about them. One solution would be that Arkeo could send a message to everyone that joins, and inform that it is a bot that is logging the channel. If someone doesn't want to be logged, they could simply part. I just don't understand how someone dares to complain about this, I would be embarrassed if I would complain about this.

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IRC is realtime media and should be treated as such. Anyone who is too lazy to idle in the channel can suffer and not get to view what happened. Anyone who does idle can feel free to read their own personal logs. IRC is meant to be fun, and many users style of fun they would prefer to not be logged. Is privacy not enough of a concern?

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Originally Posted by Wizzup?

What's the big deal? That all the logs are available to everyone. That's the big deal. :)

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Internet is public, almost everything can be found publicly, some old forum posts and IRC logs from other networks, I once searched for myself and found several IRC logs that contained text from me from 2004. If we don't want them to be linked to our selves, then we use aliases, like my Frement, thought my name can be found from my domains whois records. Still, this is my choice, I allowed someone to see my records, and now there is almost no way for me to hide them as they are indexed always somewhere. This is a fact that I live with, and I don't mind. Not ready for losing privacy? Disconnect from the internet, easy solution.

Just remove Arkeo

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* yakman (~yakman@tr.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l) has joined #srl
<Sexy> [yakman] The genes are the master programmers, and they are programming for their lives. ~Richard Dawkins
* Sexy sets mode +a #srl yakman
* Sexy gives channel operator status to yakman
* yakman sets ban on Arkeo!*@*
* yakman has kicked Arkeo from #srl (Arkeo)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frement

Internet is public, almost everything can be found publicly, some old forum posts and IRC logs from other networks, I once searched for myself and found several IRC logs that contained text from me from 2004. If we don't want them to be linked to our selves, then we use aliases, like my Frement, thought my name can be found from my domains whois records. Still, this is my choice, I allowed someone to see my records, and now there is almost no way for me to hide them as they are indexed always somewhere. This is a fact that I live with, and I don't mind. Not ready for losing privacy? Disconnect from the internet, easy solution.

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All I got out of that block of text is: "you have no privacy rights online, so please let any and everyone rape your privacy rights without making any attempts to fight it".

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Originally Posted by Harry

All I got out of that block of text is: "you have no privacy rights online, so please let any and everyone rape your privacy rights without making any attempts to fight it".

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All I was trying to say, its the internet, don't expect privacy. That much has been clear to since I first started using.

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Originally Posted by Frement

All I was trying to say, its the internet, don't expect privacy. That much has been clear to since I first started using.

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Yes, but does that mean we don't have the right to fight for it? Or that people should respect others privacy wishes is my point.

If you willingly allow it, as you have been on the IRC channel while you know it is being logged, I don't think you have any rights to fight for your privacy.

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Originally Posted by Frement

If you willingly allow it, as you have been on the IRC channel while you know it is being logged, I don't think you have any rights to fight for your privacy.

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The problem isn't that it's being logged, it's that the logs are publicly available

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Originally Posted by Zyt3x

The problem isn't that it's being logged, it's that the logs are publicly available

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Well, I still don't see anything wrong with it, perhaps its just me.

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Originally Posted by cycrosism

Saw this on the IRC a while ago, anyway I am glad things like that get logged. :/

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That wasn't me, someone has been impersonating me (Have logs to prove it, oooh wow fancy that). I have also changed my hoskmask and have never had "hhd" as my username/real name.

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Originally Posted by Zyt3x

The problem isn't that it's being logged, it's that the logs are publicly available

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Not anymore, and as said already in this thread changes are being made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frement

If you willingly allow it, as you have been on the IRC channel while you know it is being logged, I don't think you have any rights to fight for your privacy.

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I don't think it's really your position to tell them what rights they do or don't have >.>

Internet is public. FYI.

Anything you post, write, do, can all be re-traced and re-looked at again.
No matter if he does or does not log your data.

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Originally Posted by Overtime

Internet is public. FYI.

Anything you post, write, do, can all be re-traced and re-looked at again.
No matter if he does or does not log your data.

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just because it can doesnt mean it should be easier for people to access that information.

Im agreeing with what people said previously, if somebody really wants the logs, they can just idle in the irc.

The site is already down.

http://thehhd.com/irclogs.html

Enough qq, enough of the whole privacy concern, enough of the damn pointing fingers on who's doing what.

If you don't like it, stay underneath the rock. Your identity will be protected 100% since its such a concern to everyone.

You make it seem like you guys are sharing your social security numbers on there, or addresses.

Those are bigger problems, not fcking virtual logs over the damn internet.

Seriously, grow up.

Crazyness.

There are CCTV cams everywhere, why not complain about that to ?

I think a warning should be put in place, so people know as someone said.

I don't care where your from if you don't put a warning up you must be breaking some kind of law ? same for CCTV, Speed cameras, guard dog, if something is high voltage ect...... If you don't like it tho, if you know about it then leave.

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Originally Posted by Jakkle

Crazyness.

There are CCTV cams everywhere, why not complain about that to ?

I think a warning should be put in place, so people know as someone said.

I don't care where your from if you don't put a warning up you must be breaking some kind of law ? same for CCTV, Speed cameras, guard dog, if something is high voltage ect...... If you don't like it tho, if you know about it then leave.

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I take dick up the ass from any authority figure. So does everyone else in this thread who doesn't support privacy!

This whole situation is trivial. You are not 13. COPPA is a US law, and you are on a public IRC server in a public channel. If you are concerned with your privacy, don't join the channel. That said, the logs should at least not be indexed as well as users being able to opt-out and their messages will be ignored and not logged.

I take nether side as I don't care...

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Originally Posted by noidea

Under section 1303.a.1: I would call collecting the personal messages directed at a single channel, not publicly (anyone not in the channel at the time), collecting personal information. I would also say that you very-well know it is easy for a child - anyone under 13, as described by COPPA - to access irc, and then be logged unknowingly.

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The personal messages are not personal information. Read the site you posted....

(8) PERSONAL INFORMATION.—The term "personal information" means individually identifiable information about an individual collected online, including—

(A) a first and last name;

(B) a home or other physical address including street name and name of a city or town;

(C) an e-mail address;

(D) a telephone number;

(E) a Social Security number;

(F) any other identifier that the Commission determines permits the physical or online contacting of a specific individual; or

(G) information concerning the child or the parents of that child that the website collects online from the child and combines with an identifier described in this paragraph.

They are just logs of a public chat room? Who cares?

What's the purpose of recording everyone's conversation in an IRC chat room?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

They are just logs of a public chat room? Who cares?

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Well, obviously somebody cares.

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Originally Posted by Dgby714

I take nether side as I don't care...



The personal messages are not personal information. Read the site you posted....

(8) PERSONAL INFORMATION.—The term "personal information" means individually identifiable information about an individual collected online, including—

(A) a first and last name;

(B) a home or other physical address including street name and name of a city or town;

(C) an e-mail address;

(D) a telephone number;

(E) a Social Security number;

(F) any other identifier that the Commission determines permits the physical or online contacting of a specific individual; or

(G) information concerning the child or the parents of that child that the website collects online from the child and combines with an identifier described in this paragraph.

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Personal messages contain personal information. I have seen first and last names, Facebook accounts, emails, telephone numbers thrown around extensively while I've been on #srl. When public logs are available, all this information becomes available. I'm sure any court would uphold what I've said.

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Originally Posted by noidea

Personal messages contain personal information. I have seen first and last names, Facebook accounts, emails, telephone numbers thrown around extensively while I've been on #srl. When public logs are available, all this information becomes available. I'm sure any court would uphold what I've said.

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Ok going by your logic, we could also say something along the lines of, "Since a box 'had' stolen goods in it at one time, it's illegal to have the box at any time."

Hobbit tries his best to keep personal information out of logs (Phone numbers) but filtering addresses and names is impossible, you're asking for too much.

I also doubt a court would hold it up as you said the information in a "PUBLIC" channel.

Guys, who cares about the law. Just all ask Hobbit to remove it kindly, I don't see anyone in particular opposing to removing the logs.