Why do we bother?

That is, why do we bother with colour scripting? Keep in mind that this entire argument pertains only to Runescape.

This is something that's been bugging me for a long long time and I'd just like to open a discussion about it. Everyone knows that SRL originated as a colour bot, but has since graduated to Reflection, essentially leaving colour in the dust (you can argue against that all you want, but you know I'm right).

I've been following the behaviour of SRL closely for a while and it's obvious that Reflection is favoured. I have to say, I can't blame you guys, it's easier to script, 99% of the time works better than color, it can do much much more, how could you not like it better? One might argue, "but what if the hooks go outdated?" Awesome, Pyroryan has created an updater that automatically updates hooks within a couple hours (at most), and unless Jagex decides to change the game engine again, Reflection scripts will never become outdated (I'm talking about constant values such as item IDs and tiles).

The fact is, there's little to no one left who have the slightest interest in colour scripting anymore, and with Reflection 2.2 becoming independent from SRL, I'm willing to bet every penny I have that new users won't even know what colour scripting is.

Of the few scripts we have, how many are colour? MSI is, and I have to say, maintaining the colour aspect of it is a major pain in the ass, especially when no one is interested in it (no offense to anyone intended). And don't even get me started about the affects graphics updates has on colour botting. Yeah, I'm tired of it, I lost interest in scripting for RS ages ago. So why do I keep doing it? Because I love this community, and would hate to see it's origins die.

But then I got to thinking, if the origins die, it's only to make way for the future. The future has endless possibilities, and I would hate to force something on people whom are clearly not interested (again, no offense intended), which now that I think about it, I have probably been doing with regards to MSI and trying to get people to contribute.

But back to the topic, why bother with colour scripting? NCDS and I lack time (and I lack interest) to keep MSI running the way it needs to be run, SRL5 development has been stagnated for a while (and I don't see it picking up any time soon), there are maybe two or three colour scripts that still work, SRL and Reflection will be completely separate soon, and the community lacks interest.

I'd hate to see the colour side of SRL archived, but at this rate, it seems inevitable.

Discuss. :)

pretty much agree with all of that

I can't argue with being too busy to do things, and reflection seems a lot more "promising" than it used to be

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Cohen: great minds think alike ;)
YoHoJo: I was also thinking
YoHoJo: it's annoying people argue
YoHoJo: It's a fucking fact
YoHoJo: Refelction is easier and better
YoHoJo: YES color CAN be 'JUST AS GOOD AND FAST'
YoHoJo: but it's a fucking waste of time when we have ref
Cohen: I know
Cohen: Plus with the RS graphics always upgrading, it's even harder
YoHoJo: yea ther's no point
Cohen: It's a huge fucking pain in the ass, just to make something not work as well as reflection
YoHoJo: yeah color scripting is (and has been) oudated
YoHoJo: It's 'fun' and you learn coding better but like wtf man we are botting here
YoHoJo: agreeing with pretty mcuh every line of this
Cohen: :)
YoHoJo: I never jump into the 'debatey' threads but I might in this one
YoHoJo: But like hey
YoHoJo: 'whats stopping you?' if you want all ref, then do it make all your scripts ref, make msi ref
YoHoJo: and those who still wana do color can do color
YoHoJo: all options are still out there for everyone, and you're right most scripts are ref already
YoHoJo: are you like saying we should make SRL al ref pretty much?
YoHoJo: And not have them as 2 includes

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Agree with all but like what's stopping us?
Keep srl going as color, keep ref up to date too. People can pick and choose what they want. I guess making SRL all ref and no more color would be something to do but I don't see that happening. I agree with everything the thread said, but nothing needs to change for that stuff to happen just make MSI all ref, make all your scripts with ref, and those who want to still script color can do that too.

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Originally Posted by YoHoJo

Agree with all but like what's stopping us?
Keep srl going as color, keep ref up to date too. People can pick and choose what they want. I guess making SRL all ref and no more color would be something to do but I don't see that happening. I agree with everything the thread said, but nothing needs to change for that stuff to happen just make MSI all ref, make all your scripts with ref, and those who want to still script color can do that too.

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That's the thing, there's no one left to maintain the color side of SRL. NCDS and I are technically the only active SRL Developers (Nava2 a little bit) and it's hard to be motivated to do something that probably won't be used.

Yeah when it comes to Runescape it's hard to beat Reflection. So maybe to be more specific, this argument is limited to Runescape scripts.

We have the exact same tools, as other Javabots, at our fingertips, but our advantage is an extremely intelligent development team.

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Originally Posted by Flight

Yeah when it comes to Runescape it's hard to beat Reflection. So maybe to be more specific, this argument is limited to Runescape scripts.

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Ah yes good point. I'll add that to the first post.

I agree with you Coh3n. Like myself I'm tired of scripting.. And if I wan't to create something, I will do it with Ref. Because it's easier / faster and so on.

But really there is nothing we can do. Most people (like me) are busy, or no interest keeping everything up (by everything I mean scripts and so on).

~Home

What? Ref2.2 will have no SRL support?

Lol, finally :p Took a while

Because it's fun. I do plan on scripting again and for now I don't feel it'll be anything reflection. What I was going to suggest is to make a ``Colour'' and ``Reflection'' *backend* for SRL. Similar to how Reflection has been making stuff like r_Gametab() really.

A for lack of activity, I've said I plan to return to the include development seat and I still plan on doing so. I don't have a problem with Reflection, but programming-wise it's not much a challenge. If you want this to be a programming community it makes perfect sense to keep colour intact.

To be honest I've not really lost my interesting in scripting, I've just lost my interest in Runescape a long time ago. I don't pk, and I don't want to manually any more. My lack of activity when it comes to the include is really just time though. And Simba, and SRL Stats, and University, etc. Very soon I'll be done with my university releasing my of the biggest time burden. I have other plans after that but I'm sure I'll be making some more free time. We all grow up and the challenge is to find a fitting positing for yourself as you grow rather than leave.

Yes, reflection is far better than color when talking about botting on runescape. Simply put reflection is to color, as botting is to playing manually. No one can deny it. This is the reason the other java bots(they utilize a lot more reflection than we do) have flourished. Also i think its time we move onto some other game to bot on since runescape is all about money these days.

You learn more when making a color script.

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Originally Posted by bevardis

You learn more when making a color script.

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I think that depends on what you're learning.

Tbh this is why I became a reflection dev years ago ;D I do like how color is more of a challenge and I like to use color scripts as a yes/no factor for SRL membership, but its a waste of time to script in all color. That being said, I personally always use color as a failsafe or double check in my scripts (sometimes the engine is faster than you can see it on the screen ;P). I vote we make all color functions C_ and removed R_ from reflection ;D

And no, Reflection 2.2 will be fully compatible and usable with SRL, but it will be independent, so SRL doesn't HAVE to be used. I like to keep things light in 2.2. Don't worry there :)

I understand how you feel Coh3n when idiots like this are everywhere.

It's true that color scripts are a lot harder to write than reflection, I have been writing an all color script lately and getting the walking system to work in an effective manner is a bitch. But I'm continuing the development because I want to experience the type of cheating that made SRL famous years ago, with all of the challenges that come with it. I just don't feel good when I use reflection anymore.

I also believe reflection is best for runescape to. Like with many things, there is always something new and better to replace the older way of doing something. If it's more reliable then I say its best to use it. Saying that though dtms and colour are very helpful for fail-safes like Drakan pointed out. I like the sound of reflection not needing srl but yet sitting alongside it.

New people join every so often that will still be interested and will use srl, so it shouldn't be gotten rid of. I personally am more into just scripting for rs in reflection tho.

Good thread :)

Like Wizzup and Echo_ stated, scripting for color is more challenging. I have been working on a color script, and it is nice when things don't simply work (Like Reflection, (for the most part)) and you actually have to rework what you've written. It is much more rewarding than writing a reflection script, and yes, slower and frustrating.

It's kinda weird too because I can only assume people come here expecting color scripting. I doubt people come here because they heard we have a great reflection library (which we do), but you could go to any of these cheating sites and find java based cheating systems.

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Originally Posted by Wizzup?

Because it's fun. I do plan on scripting again and for now I don't feel it'll be anything reflection. What I was going to suggest is to make a ``Colour'' and ``Reflection'' *backend* for SRL. Similar to how Reflection has been making stuff like r_Gametab() really.

A for lack of activity, I've said I plan to return to the include development seat and I still plan on doing so. I don't have a problem with Reflection, but programming-wise it's not much a challenge. If you want this to be a programming community it makes perfect sense to keep colour intact.

To be honest I've not really lost my interesting in scripting, I've just lost my interest in Runescape a long time ago. I don't pk, and I don't want to manually any more. My lack of activity when it comes to the include is really just time though. And Simba, and SRL Stats, and University, etc. Very soon I'll be done with my university releasing my of the biggest time burden. I have other plans after that but I'm sure I'll be making some more free time. We all grow up and the challenge is to find a fitting positing for yourself as you grow rather than leave.

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I'm not necessarily talking about you or I or any of the older members because there are those few that enjoy colour scripting for the challenge. You can't deny that colour is slowly being forgotten, especially since development of SRL4 and 5 has basically been stopped for months. Yeah, I'm sure some people still find it fun, and that's great, but 90% of current scripters and 99% of future ones use and will use Reflection.

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Originally Posted by bevardis

You learn more when making a color script.

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I think so too.

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Originally Posted by Echo_

I understand how you feel Coh3n when idiots like this are everywhere.

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That kid is just a moron. I don't know what else to say.

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Originally Posted by Echo_

It's true that color scripts are a lot harder to write than reflection, I have been writing an all color script lately and getting the walking system to work in an effective manner is a bitch. But I'm continuing the development because I want to experience the type of cheating that made SRL famous years ago, with all of the challenges that come with it. I just don't feel good when I use reflection anymore.

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That's great, but sadly, you one of only a few who feel that way. :)

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Originally Posted by Drakan

And no, Reflection 2.2 will be fully compatible and usable with SRL, but it will be independent, so SRL doesn't HAVE to be used. I like to keep things light in 2.2. Don't worry there :)

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That's what I meant: that it could be run without SRL if the scripter chose.

This is actually a very interesting question. I have not been here in over two years, I just got bored with RS and was never good enough at scripting to be a member so I stopped coming to these forums about the same time I got bored with RS. I did learn a decent amount about scripting back then but any of the scripts I did for myself were about 40% my own work and 60% cannibalized from other peoples scripts, so I never posted them.

I've been thinking about starting again though and with checking things out it looks like Reflection has taken over which shocked me as Reflection was frowned on the last time I was here. I was wondering a few things though.

It was said that the graphics updates are killing the color part of scripting. It used to be that Reflection was down more than SRL because of updates. Do the hooks change less than color now or is it that Reflection is just updated quicker?

Looking at the script section I have access to though it looks like almost everything is Reflection now. Thinking back I learned more from working scripts than I did from tutorials so anyone new that comes here I would guess just goes straight to Reflection. I would hate to see SRL die though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coh3n

I'm not necessarily talking about you or I or any of the older members because there are those few that enjoy colour scripting for the challenge.

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Um, obviously reflection is more efficient at a lot of things and I think there are a few things color just can't do. I'm pretty sure anyone scripting in color at this point is doing it for the fun/challenge, which is pretty understandable imo, especially because a lot of people here aren't interested in runescape anymore, so their goal isn't simply to automate tasks for a game they like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kissdemon

This is actually a very interesting question. I have not been here in over two years, I just got bored with RS and was never good enough at scripting to be a member so I stopped coming to these forums about the same time I got bored with RS. I did learn a decent amount about scripting back then but any of the scripts I did for myself were about 40% my own work and 60% cannibalized from other peoples scripts, so I never posted them.

I've been thinking about starting again though and with checking things out it looks like Reflection has taken over which shocked me as Reflection was frowned on the last time I was here. I was wondering a few things though.

It was said that the graphics updates are killing the color part of scripting. It used to be that Reflection was down more than SRL because of updates. Do the hooks change less than color now or is it that Reflection is just updated quicker?

Looking at the script section I have access to though it looks like almost everything is Reflection now. Thinking back I learned more from working scripts than I did from tutorials so anyone new that comes here I would guess just goes straight to Reflection. I would hate to see SRL die though.

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SRL won't die, the community will always be here. To answer the hooks question, yes, hooks are updated within an hour or so, and depending on the RS update, it can take weeks (depending on scripter's time) to update colour scripts.

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Originally Posted by Ogre

Um, obviously reflection is more efficient at a lot of things and I think there are a few things color just can't do. I'm pretty sure anyone scripting in color at this point is doing it for the fun/challenge, which is pretty understandable imo, especially because a lot of people here aren't interested in runescape anymore, so their goal isn't simply to automate tasks for a game they like.

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Exactly. ;)

They are different tools. Use the one that works best for the task. For example, OCR should be used for NPC chatting.

I don't know if you could call me a "Old School" member, but I have for a long time supported reflection beyond color.

When KYAB wasn't accepted here I wrote for it and used it. And then when I heard smart could support it I thought "Finally, Reflection will be accepted". And to my surprise, it was never really accepted because it was "too easy", which confused me about as much as people who wont use email and will only do snail mail.

IMO KYAB failed because SRL was at a very active time where Java was not used by many, and botting was done by less people... however there were many color scripters at that time. I personally use reflection because I can't be bothered to try to reproduce errors caused by color object finding, along with being lazy.

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Originally Posted by Drakan

Reflection 2.2 will be fully compatible and usable with SRL, but it will be independent, so SRL doesn't HAVE to be used.

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Nice :D

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Originally Posted by Coh3n

SRL won't die, the community will always be here. To answer the hooks question, yes, hooks are updated within an hour or so, and depending on the RS update, it can take weeks (depending on scripter's time) to update colour scripts.

Exactly. ;)

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Color just as well wont die, and it would be foolish for us to let it die. Infact color will always be available to use for scripting even though it's not really being developed. No matter what Jagex updates in Rs you will always be able to use color in some way, because color basically reads the colors on the screen/interface/minimap/chat etc etc... and acts accordingly.

You cannot say the same for Java/reflection... Sure reflection right now is pretty much flawless and the most easiest and most efficient way to make a script. BUT if Jagex were to update something in there game engine or implement something to stop us from obtaining hooks or do something to stop us from getting hold of the client then, that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for reflection.

Color can be just as efficient as reflection; even though you may have to do so much extra coding (which is a damn good thing you lazy people lol). We could develop some easy to use/efficient procedures/functions for color right just as well, no? Honestly If I wanted to be a super leet programmer I would learn how to code with color 1st.

But its pretty stupid right now to say color is better than reflection for making Runescape scripts. Reflection is superior over color in every category. It's already been proven that you can make crazy ass scripts with Java/reflection(iDungeon). But how reliable is it? What if I wake up tomorrow and find that Reflection is no longer usable? Then what?

The point is clear: Color even though it's harder to use and implement, will always be available. Reflection despite it being super awesome/efficient and easy to use, can be unreliable and if Jagex updates something big then its pretty much dead. I don't know about you people but I still feel that Jagex will do a major update along with a mass ban ;). Yall remember when Jagex tried to take us out when they made colors ingame change over a period of time to throw off scripts? Well we got it around it!

So that's what makes SRL unique and beautiful. We have a failsafe for everything.

Oh and you know those leachers at Rsbot and Rsbuddy? Well they will come back right here.

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Originally Posted by kingarabian

The point is clear: Color even though it's harder to use and implement, will always be available. Reflection despite it being super awesome/efficient and easy to use, can be unreliable and if Jagex updates something big then its pretty much dead. I don't know about you people but I still feel that Jagex will do a major update along with a mass ban ;). Yall remember when Jagex tried to take us out when they made colors ingame change over a period of time to throw off scripts? Well we got it around it!

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Love this statement. :) Nicely said.

always keep ideas flowing and if old ideas, advance on them.


Even though it is old and dusty, still doesnt mean it cant be dusted off, thought upon, and changed into a brand new idea+new creation. :)

Edit: also keep all options open because you never know :P

I use color all the time when I need a small/ easy script. Once you have one object finder, you can adapt it to what ever you could possibly need it for, and to be honest, I think it's much easier to gather colors than tiles + id's. Then obviously there are times(like MTA) when reflection is just required, but I would like to use color when ever i can :p

Just as a comparison, When AR thrived and then got nerfed by the Jagsters, it was quite the hit to the cheating community. Thankfully Kait was awesome and loved his people, but if he wouldn't have cared, RS cheating would've been quite different. It would be naive of us to assume Reflection will always be a viable botting method. It would be even more naive to not use this time to thrive with reflection, though. ;)

Also, "because color basically reads the colors on the screen/interface/minimap/chat etc etc..." tell me your secrets, wizard. (lol srsly, that made me "LOL" irl, lol. :p lol)

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Originally Posted by i luffs yeww

Just as a comparison, When AR thrived and then got nerfed by the Jagsters, it was quite the hit to the cheating community. Thankfully Kait was awesome and loved his people, but if he wouldn't have cared, RS cheating would've been quite different. It would be naive of us to assume Reflection will always be a viable botting method. It would be even more naive to not use this time to thrive with reflection, though. ;)

Also, "because color basically reads the colors on the screen/interface/minimap/chat etc etc..." tell me your secrets, wizard. (lol srsly, that made me "LOL" irl, lol. :p lol)

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ians a blue duck. CSS.

I have seen you :P sorry for offtopicness.

anyways, always advance whats there,keep it simple as possible, and listen to music after brainstorming :P *also get a drink too* :P

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Originally Posted by kingarabian

Reflection despite it being super awesome/efficient and easy to use, can be unreliable and if Jagex updates something big then its pretty much dead. I don't know about you people but I still feel that Jagex will do a major update along with a mass ban ;).

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I've been anticipating this for a while now. But I lean more to the idea of this not happening because of how much it would hurt business for them. I think if anything close to this was to be done, they'd take out (regular) pking, trade limits, things like that, then atleast 70% of the bots would thus become useless.

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Originally Posted by pyroryan

They are different tools. Use the one that works best for the task. For example, OCR should be used for NPC chatting.

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Definitely agree with this. I've made a handful of my own reflection functions with the only difference being SRL's OCR.

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Originally Posted by kingarabian

Color just as well wont die, and it would be foolish for us to let it die. Infact color will always be available to use for scripting even though it's not really being developed. No matter what Jagex updates in Rs you will always be able to use color in some way, because color basically reads the colors on the screen/interface/minimap/chat etc etc... and acts accordingly.

You cannot say the same for Java/reflection... Sure reflection right now is pretty much flawless and the most easiest and most efficient way to make a script. BUT if Jagex were to update something in there game engine or implement something to stop us from obtaining hooks or do something to stop us from getting hold of the client then, that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for reflection.

Color can be just as efficient as reflection; even though you may have to do so much extra coding (which is a damn good thing you lazy people lol). We could develop some easy to use/efficient procedures/functions for color right just as well, no? Honestly If I wanted to be a super leet programmer I would learn how to code with color 1st.

But its pretty stupid right now to say color is better than reflection for making Runescape scripts. Reflection is superior over color in every category. It's already been proven that you can make crazy ass scripts with Java/reflection(iDungeon). But how reliable is it? What if I wake up tomorrow and find that Reflection is no longer usable? Then what?

The point is clear: Color even though it's harder to use and implement, will always be available. Reflection despite it being super awesome/efficient and easy to use, can be unreliable and if Jagex updates something big then its pretty much dead. I don't know about you people but I still feel that Jagex will do a major update along with a mass ban ;). Yall remember when Jagex tried to take us out when they made colors ingame change over a period of time to throw off scripts? Well we got it around it!

So that's what makes SRL unique and beautiful. We have a failsafe for everything.

Oh and you know those leachers at Rsbot and Rsbuddy? Well they will come back right here.

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I think you need to understand how it all works before saying jagex can just stop letting us "obtain hooks". Obviously if it was possible to stop they would do it, but it just isn't. There is always a way to reverse engineer. It's code. They can change the game engine and break all the hooks, and it might temporarily stop reflection (for a week or 2), but same thing can go with color. Just as they made the color changing and it stopped us for a bit, we got around it and moved on. Who's to say they wouldn't do that for color? My point is, they can't just make it so we can't "obtain hooks". Its a native java thing to be able to run through the bytecode of compiled java classes and search for patterns and read fields.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coh3n

I'm not necessarily talking about you or I or any of the older members because there are those few that enjoy colour scripting for the challenge. You can't deny that colour is slowly being forgotten, especially since development of SRL4 and 5 has basically been stopped for months. Yeah, I'm sure some people still find it fun, and that's great, but 90% of current scripters and 99% of future ones use and will use Reflection.

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Just to expand on this a bit; ever since I became a developer (and even before) I've been pushing people to help get involved with solving randoms. Not even to test or code for them necessarily (though that would be nice), but simply lend an account or at the very least a debug log for a random. I've got maybe one or two the whole time. (Ever since after Squancy loaned me all those accounts)


@The whole "why do we bother" thing: I will probably always use color object finding. I absolutely love working with arrays and searching algorithms and honestly, just having fun with my code.

I often times use reflection for walking when I'm just throwing something together quick to be used for a short period of time, but other wise I'd still use color.

As you previously stated, there are (unfortunately) only a few of us that feel that way. I don't ever think we should stop support of a color version of SRL though. Color is far to great of a learning tool to ever be discarded by an intelligent programming community.

I would also like to bring up one point. WT_Fawki stated in our 'mission statement' that our goal is to be the few that blend in among the legit RS. With all this talk about 'flourishing' in the RS cheating scene I doubt that would be so true any more. I personally like the fact that when I run a script, I can watch and see everyone else that's botting because they all run the same paths etc. then I'm off on my own doing my own thing. I don't want SRL to become like RSBuddy or RSBot or any other java bot. Sure I would love to see more activity, but we have to keep pushing onward with color as well, it keeps us who we are, honestly.

My opinion, sorry for bouncing around in that.

(On a side note: I do plan to pick up SRL development a bit more now that the big MSI update is out of the way, plus my hours are finally going down. :p )

@NCDS: I definitely agree with you on the mission statement and I _never_ want that to go away. I still find pride in SRL scripts being the ones that do stand out differently from other bots, and I believe that is all up to the scripter. It's not color or reflection that makes it, its the scripter and communities. If things are over abused, or theres not enough randomness and effort put into a script, then it happens.

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Originally Posted by NCDS

WT_Fawki stated in our 'mission statement' that our goal is to be the few that blend in among the legit RS. With all this talk about 'flourishing' in the RS cheating scene I doubt that would be so true any more.

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If I may comment on this, I believe the factor of blending in with legit players has nothing to do with Color/Reflection, but rather it's determined on the scripter's style and use of what's available. The same procedures we have for anti-bans and human characteristics that we have in the SRL include can, without a doubt, be applied to Reflection.

We can keep keep our infamous tradition of reflecting human characteristics in our scripts no matter how we do it, as that shouldn't be limited to Color only.

Edit:
Ah hell, ya beat me to it, Drakan. :p

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Originally Posted by Flight

Edit:
Ah hell, ya beat me to it, Drakan. :p

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Buahaha >=)

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Originally Posted by Drakan

@NCDS: I definitely agree with you on the mission statement and I _never_ want that to go away. I still find pride in SRL scripts being the ones that do stand out differently from other bots, and I believe that is all up to the scripter. It's not color or reflection that makes it, its the scripter and communities. If things are over abused, or theres not enough randomness and effort put into a script, then it happens.

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Originally Posted by Flight

If I may comment on this, I believe the factor of blending in with legit players has nothing to do with Color/Reflection, but rather it's determined on the scripter's style and use of what's available. The same procedures we have for anti-bans and human characteristics that we have in the SRL include can, without a doubt, be applied to Reflection.

We can keep keep our infamous tradition of reflecting human characteristics in our scripts no matter how we do it, as that shouldn't be limited to Color only.

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I was more so talking about the abuse of the scripts here. Although, I do find that Reflection often times does things even better than a human would.

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Originally Posted by NCDS

I was more so talking about the abuse of the scripts here. Although, I do find that Reflection often times does things even better than a human would.

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I'm guessing that's more on the scripter's side. I don't know much about the Reflection include, but I imagine each method does what it's supposed to, and it's up the the scripter to add randomness.