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Alright, in this thread I'd like to discuss Macs (or any Apple products for that matter, iPhones included) and why people don't like them.
Hopefully we can correct some mistaken ideas that people may have and get a good debate going.
Note: My goal is not to convert you over to the Mac side of things, nor should your goal be to convert anyone else.
So feel free to levy your complaints and let's get this going.
I got nothing against mac - it's just not 'original' enough for me.
Windows will always win because it has that originality...
Could you be more specific in what "originality" you are talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by abu_jwka
I personally like apple stuff because my father was using them longer then I life so I grow up with them. I personally use apple stuff since i am 6 years old. But I like windows computer too and I normally have a windows tower next to me but it is broken at the moment (something with the mainboard). I think mac is winning with everything connected with work and windows is more for gaming etc. But a huge - for apple is that they are exspensive and the programs are very expensive.
*Edit
Just realized that you are named after "Bob barker" ;)
Well I grew up on windows and have used them forever lol. I like iphones and ipods and so on, but i believe that windows is much easier to learn how to use and everything is more accessible and basic. For some reason i was never really fond of Macs.
I think that apple products are over priced, but do less than other things that are for a lower price, apple is just very well advertized.
I would prefer windows since they are cheaper and their programs are cheaper. I know u might say that they are better programs but sometimes complicated to use. The only reason I like apple is because their iPods.
I love my mac book, Especially how I don't ever get viruses.
Would you say everything is more basic and accessible or that you've always been used to Windows? I ask because most people would argue that the complete opposite, almost to the point of a lot of Mac apps being too basic and not having enough options.Quote:
Originally Posted by lifestyles
Definitely overpriced. I wouldn't say they do less things then other computers lower priced. Maybe you could clarify that point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff
How are Windows programs cheaper?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ucantseemebot
That is false, there are viruses for Macs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonrider
Whoops, forgot to address that. Yes, Macs do have viruses. Most recently there was the Flashback virus which affected over 600,000 Macs. No doubt they have less viruses than Windows but that is completely due to the market share factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Undefined
Exactly, and in terms of market share, Mac is still "new" compared to Windows. The big thing is that Windows is "more user friendly" than Macs. I love the OS of Mac, I've used Windows my whole life. I use it on a daily basis because of work, but Macs are nice, and they're solidly built.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobarkinator
Three things I have against Apple:
1. They focus far too much on making their product attractive rather than practical. They are far too much of a fashion icon.
2. COST. Yeah, it's a joke.
3. They sue for the most ridiculous things, and twist lawsuits their way using illegitimate methods (eg, photoshopping the galaxy tab image to make it appear more like the iPad). They sued HTC because you swipe your finger across the screen to go through images (please?). To put it into perspective, Samsung found Apple in breach of over 27,000 patents, and didn't kick up that much of a fuss.
Actually, I need a fourth, but it's a bit unfair to hold it against Apple as a company, because it's not their fault. Apple users seem to think that their software/hardware is superior to everyone else. Genuinely, many people who own the iPhone don't believe for a second that any phone is even vaguely close to being as good as theirs. Replace my S II for something extremely limited? I don't think so
K that's wrong.. Don't put all iPhone users into the douche bag category.. I've been jailbreaking and searching for exploits since day 1.. and yes the iPhone is superior to the SII in every way shape and form due to jailbreaking. Without it well of course ur phones are going to be better. There's a larger appstore for the iPhone and a larger community
Apple does sue over everything though.. And I prefer normal laptops over the mac books.
1. How does making a product more attractive make it less practical? MacBooks have the best tactile feel to them in my opinion. Have you seen laptops recently? They're all starting to taking design features from Apple. Not saying it's a bad thing, when something is good I think more people should be copying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
2.Yes
3. I don't remember the legal terms for it, but if you hold a patent and someone infringes it and you don't go after them, it can actually be used as a precedent in future cases against you.
4. Have you used an iPhone or Mac extensively? Replace my iPhone for a laggy piece of crap where half the apps don't work? I don't think so
Can it connect/utilize (to) Verizon's 4G LTE network? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon
I don't like Apple simply for the fact that I am resistant to change. I know windows, so I will continue to use windows. Ohh, and I abhor iTunes, and because I don't own/use any apple products I have never spent any time looking for alternatives.
Creating overly simple products, overpricing them, marketing them like idols, and using any other means necessary to maximize profit.Quote:
This, then, is held to be the duty of the man of wealth: First, to set an example of modest, unostentatious living, shunning display or extravagance; to provide moderately for the legitimate wants of those dependent upon him; and, after doing so, to consider all surplus revenues which come to him simply as trust funds, which he is called upon to administer, and strictly bound as a matter of duty to administer in the manner which, in his judgement, is best calculated to produce the most benefitial result for the community-the man of wealth thus becoming the sole agent and trustee for his poorer brethen, bringing to their service his superior wisdom, experience, and ability to administer-doing for them better than they would or could do for themselves. – “Wealth”, North American Review, 148, no 391 [June 1889]
I despise many corporate giants in numerous ways, but Apple takes the cake. Their products and polices are an epiphany of what's wrong with both the consumers and the producers.
And its modern founder, Steve Jobs, fulfilled almost no responsibilities with his wealth that cost others so much for him to achieve.
1. I feel that they spend far too much time focusing on that part of the design over the actual use of it. Although, as you say, I've not extensively used Apple products, so I can't judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobarkinator
3. I was actually unaware of this, quite interesting.
4. Not hugely extensively, but I find iPhones to be limited in functionality compared to a high-end Android. Although with Android, you really do need something with good hardware, or, as you say, it's horrifically laggy (I know loads of people in possession of a Wildfire).
I'll admit, if I was wealthier, or Apple were slightly cheaper, I'd probably consider their products.
To be honest, I have NO clue why everyeone hates on Apple.
Apple is an amazing company with extraordinary products in its own right, however I don't think that that gives anyone the right to diss them just because they can't afford their products.
OK macs are extremely professional however i feel that they are over priced.... someone mentioned that u can get more for ur money if u buy say a dell on a windows os instead of a mac book , this is true also software is often less compatable with mac os. theres something else i wanted to say but can't remember it :/ ill edit it in later.
One thing Apple did right with the iPhone that Android failed to do is the control of device fragmentation.
How many "new" Android devices do you see being released each week? The number is astounding, and the devices that are being made actually suck. Since Android is an open source project, everyone and their mother are making Android phones. The specs of these new phones are horrible. These phones don't have the specs to upgrade to the new Android versions, so what do you have to do in order to get the latest and greatest? Buy a whole new phone! WTF is that??
Then, don't forget each carrier/manufacturer is throwing their own skin ontop of Android, which really brings down what you can do. In order to get the full potential out of it, you have to root it and install your own Android OS. Only geeks/nerds, like me, do that. Your average person wouldn't have a clue how to do that.
Also, carriers are late to push out the latest Android versions. So in order to get the newest version, you either have to root it, or buy the damn phone with that Android version on it already installed. However, you'll then run into the above paragraph.
My friends have Android devices, and don't know anything about their potential or how to root them. They're always complaining about the phones, about the functionality, etc. I've rooted the phones for them, and installed a custom Android OS and they absolutely love their phones again. Why do you need to do that in order to be happy with them?
With the iPhone, there really isn't a whole lot of fragmentation. The only thing that differs is the apps, and now Siri (Which I think should be able to be downloaded and installed for the iPhone 4/iPad 2 since it's just baked into the OS, but that's a whole different story). Most apps have a version that works on all iOS devices. Yes, some apps only work on the new iOS devices, because of the way the internals work, but how often do you come across that?
I love the feel of iOS, it just feels clean and easy to work with, which is why it's so popular. I don't agree with Apple's approach that iOS is the future for all their products (Which they have hinted at) though. iOS should only be for mobile devices (iPhone/iPad/iPod), not in Macs.
I love the feel of the Windows Phone 7, the OS is so crisp, clean, and responsive. It's a HUGE step up from their previous attempts of WinMobile OS, which was absolutely horrible. I remember having the Tilt, which ran WinMobile 6.0 - 6.5. I hated that phone, and it was considered a "smart phone" too.
I love the feel of a stock, fresh Android phone. No carrier/manufacturer skins, just the original Android OS. But sadly the phones don't come with that.
So a real apple hater approaches. Let me share you my experiences ;).
I bought a fine laptop for 600 euros. It has everything I want and more. It is able to run anything from crysis to simba. It was a free choice. It has a VGA port, 4 usb ports decent sound and more.
My little sister was forced by school to buy a macBook, you can say this isn't apple there fault but they visits schools to convert them. This costed a lot, like more than 1000 euros. Her laptop is slow, only has 2 usb ports, no VGA, the worst sound ever, is impractical when you open more than 10 websites and I have to fix everything cause that piece of crap doesn't is as intuitive as you might think. The only pro I see is that mother doesn't close all the open websites every time she needs to google something because the cross doesn't close the browser anymore.
Oh my apple is so amazing!
First off, can we stop calling it "4G"? 4G is a meaningless term now. The most recent iPad can connect to Verizons LTE network (without sacrificing any battery life mind you). I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people with Androids who are constantly freaking out and turning off all their data services like LTE and 3G because they're scared of there battery life. I can run my iPhone for 2 days with extensive use and without worrying about it. No the most recent iPhone doesn't support LTE (I can guarantee the next one will though considering Verizon has stated they won't let any more devices on there network that don't support LTE), but I'm not going to knock a company for taking some time to do something right. Apples not known for being first to any market, but they are known for doing it right when they get there.Quote:
Originally Posted by smurg
Steve Jobs was a pretty shady character in that area. I'm actually going through his biography right now, nearly done. I find it interesting that Steve Wozniak (who basically solely created the Apple II which put Apple on the map) was really just about giving his inventions away, it was Steve Jobs who came along and hooked up with him and monetized it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blank Check
You may be interested in this link
1. I've never found anything for which I couldn't use my Mac, could you clarify what usability issues you think there are?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
3. Yeah, I wish I could find that term. It came out during the Mojang vs. Bethesda case. Bethesda was suing Mojang because they were calling one of their games "Scrolls", it didn't have anything to do with "The Elder Scrolls" didn't even remotely resemble the game in any way, but one of the reasons Bethesda claimed to be going after Mojang was so they looked like they were defending there patent.
4. Could you point out some of those limits please? I know a big one people talk about is theming. I really like how the interface looks on iOS so I don't usually complain about that one, but there's always jailbreaking for people who want to do that.
Did anybody around here follow the Google v. Oracle case on copyright infringement? During the discovery phase of the case some documents came out that showed what Android looked like in 2006, here. As you can see, in 2006, the OS wasn't even designed to be used on a touch screen. Fast forward, 2007, iPhone comes out. Android realizes is needs to turn around, comes out with a touch screen enabled OS.
There are plenty of reasons to hate Apple. The incredibly stupid control they have over their ``AppStore'' is one example. They explicitly do not allow competitors to develop applications for their phone (See: Firefox); and they generally reject apps for incredibly stupid reasons. Not only do they limit your freedom a lot with this, but they also hurt small start up companies by sometimes just right out denying applications for no reasons. Their quality assurance is a joke and a bad reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
Comparison: What do you think about a Windows machine on which you could only install stuff Microsoft had certified? Probably no Simba for you then.
Generally, I don't hate on Apple because of their product, but because of the way they limit freedom of the user and the way they abuse their patents. Of course, their products are generally overpriced, but I really don't care about that since I'll never buy their products.
Don't get me wrong - I hate Microsoft much more than apple - Apple has done some good work (CUPS, LLVM, POSIX OS, Ditching Flash); but it's really nothing compared to the evil they're doing by restricting everyone's freedom. And don't tell me they make stuff easy to use for everyone and they bring digital stuff to people who previously couldn't catch it. People who can't catch up are doomed to be abused by the devices they use.
As for the security on OS X; don't feel too secure on your mac. Apple has actually recently acknowledged their security is garbage and are going to hire Security Firm Kaspersky to do a full code-audit on their source code.
(Am I allowed to disagree with an administrator? :p)
To be honest, I don't have any apple products other than a 4S because I got it for really cheap.
And yes, they DO restrict a few apps, hence why people submit it to Cydia.
Cydia/JBing is the only reason Apples products are worth it.
That is only for jailbroken devices which, if Apple had its way: would be illegal and AFAIK already voids your warranty. Do you want to buy a device that has it's warranty voided as soon as you want to make it usable? I didn't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
Well actually, I bought a refurbished 4S, I plan to jailbreak it when I get it.
I have a one year warranty which covers physical and mechanical damages.
Jailbreak iPhone, mess it up, grow it on the floor/put water on the circuits and get a new one.
Profit?
*grow is supposed to be 'throw'.
Ok, we talked about this a little bit on IRC. I don't think you should ever be forced into buying a Mac. What they sell to education is a little underpowered. I don't know why it cost you 1000 euros though, the school that I work in get education pricing much cheaper than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by masterBB
The Simba point is moot. On the desktop, you can install whatever apps that you want, just like on Windows. On the phone side, they are heavily over restrictive, I don't think you'd ever find someone who would disagree with you on that. However, you could argue that because of that they have a much cleaner and nicer App store compared to Android.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
In my opinion this is not true as Mac is very friendly since OSX.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Undefined
Couldn't have said it better myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff
Can get a MP3 player for 20 dollars that will do everything an ipod could and then some but cost 50 dollars less.
Coming from Windows? It's hard for most people to do the switch. I was lucky and spent 4 years on Macs in high school because of Yearbook. I was the unofficial IT person too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imanoobbot
I agree that Apple over restricts their app store, but how many apps have you seen on iOS that steals your information and sends it somewhere without you knowing? Android is flooded with those types of apps.
That's what it looks like right now, but that may very well change. After all, what differentiates a phone from a laptop in the sense that you should not be able to install whatever you want? I can't think of anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobarkinator
Besides, last I heard Apple was working on merging OS X and iOS into one system. Last I heard they also wanted to move forward with the AppStore on OS X. See the pattern?
Sure, you can destroy it and get a new one, but that's not what this is about. It's about the fact that they ship a crippled device on purpose and would love to keep it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
They have released an App store for the OSX already, for several months now. I would hate to see them merge iOS and OSX :/ I read about that awhile ago too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
In my opinion, Android gets shipped even more crippled than the iPhone. Phone manufacturers are now putting devices into the phones that fry it if you try to root it, which is nonsense! Motorola was among the offenders of this, iirc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
Double post, ban please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
But yes, other than the breach in forum rules, Apple does like to send defective products.
I have except from the one I am using now and Apple Laptop from 2004 and a Tower from 2005 which are both still working great. Also the one from 1998 is still working like a charm. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
It is true that in the next release, 10.8, they will have a new system called GateKeeper with different access levels for installing apps. On the strictest level, only apps from the Mac App Store can be installed, on the next lower level (from what I've heard, the default level) you can install any apps that are code signed. And the lowest level you can install anything. Apple likes to coddle the consumer but that hasn't stopped me from doing anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?
If you're worried about a phone OS and a desktop OS merging, maybe you should be more worried about Windows, they're ahead of Apple on that front ;) I would say that Apple is moving that direction, but so is Ubuntu. Ubuntu for Android? You're running a desktop OS on your phone. That seems like a good thing to me.
I'm not worried about the OS'es merging, I'm only showing you how it can (and will) lead to a very restricted and locked down system. GateKeeper sounds very scary to me. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobarkinator
But that is the direction every platform is going right now. I can see how it can, I just don't think that it will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzup?