Exactly what I'm saying. It's hard to argue about this with people because as usual liberals will just be like "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH U DO YOU HATE THE 20 CHILDREN THAT DIED YOU DEVIL OH EM GEE"Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyRS
Printable View
Exactly what I'm saying. It's hard to argue about this with people because as usual liberals will just be like "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH U DO YOU HATE THE 20 CHILDREN THAT DIED YOU DEVIL OH EM GEE"Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyRS
For those arguing America's gun laws need to change, please tell me how well criminals obey laws. If we were to ban guns we'd take them from the good citizens and have no effect on the "bad guys". There are WAY to many ghettos to remove guns from. No, the law should not change.
The real concern to me is that Westboro Baptist Church announced they'd picket the funerals of the deceased hours after the incident. Anonymous and other groups responded by ddosing their website, leaking their private information(including the founders social security number) and spreading awareness. We have so many sick sadistic citizens. I gave up on this country, completely. I have no "pride" for my country.
The majority of crimes in the US committed with guns are not committed by people that have obtained these guns legally. Yes, banning guns may reduce gun related crime. However, this will cause an increase in other crimes. Would you attempt to break into someones house and steal from them/rape them if there was a chance that they may have a gun? Look at the state of Texas. They have a low crime rate...Why? The majority of the citizens there carry guns.
Exactly, just look at what took place at Columbine. The killers had crafted 2 bombs from propane tanks that if they had gone off, would have killed and injured the majority of the students in the cafeteria (over 500 students).Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj95
Blaming guns for murder is like blaming pencils for spelling mistakes ;)
You can ask any non American citizen about guns and the same answer will come up, you can ask the same to an citizen of the states and the same answer will come up but vice versa, 39 people died last year in the UK due to gun related crimes, 9500 people died in the states due to gun related crime, calculating the facts that USA = x3 size of UK so 39x 3 = 117, 117 gun related crimes to 9500...yeah guns don't kill :norris:Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo_
Edit - Sorry found out that its 1/5 population of USA so just add another 78 murders to that number already
http://www.juancole.com/2011/01/over...-39-in-uk.html
http://imgur.com/DivdE.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr[S]
^ Be fair, if heroin and meth were legal there would be tons more people using them. I would assume that banning guns would also reduce the amount of guns on the streets too.
Really? Take a look at the addiction rate and tell me you see a difference in the past say, 70 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWxi
Yes, addiction has gone up. If it were legal, guess what? It would still go up, and probably faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by footballjds
Please count how many of those are done by legit gun owners.. KTHXBAIQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr[S]
Lots of illegal guns were originally purchased by someone with a licence, then sold to someone without one.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj95
Any respect for your opinions disappeared when you failed to provide any coherent response to my points but repeatedly accused me of not reading the article. Hence, I regard your opinions as ********. But I rather not use that word. Don't play the high moral card by accusing me of starting an argument with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Runehack123
On topic.
Firearm control can work in certain countries due to their geography and will of the people, like Australia, UK, Singapore, etc. These countries mentioned are divided from their neighbors by seas. This immensely reduces the chance that a gun smuggler can bring weapons in as entry points are limited, patrolled by border police, and the seas make it difficult to bring in a huge cache without getting spotted. This is in contrast to the US there just right over the southern border, smugglers are bringing in drugs, weapons, illegal immigrants into the control without albeit.
Good Economic stability is also important as citizens will feel more contented and the tendency to go and do something stupid will be less. In spite of the current economic downturn, Switzerland still has less gun crime than the US despite almost every citizen owning a rifle.
http://www.guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.html
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/index.html
Pepper spray doesn't kill people. Nor does it get used to massacre a class full of children. Thus I will never criticise women for carrying it.Quote:
This is certainly not the attitude I have, and if someone has such an attitude, so what? Pretty soon you will be criticizing women for carrying Pepper Spray. Sure there is a difference between paranoia and safety, but owning/carrying a gun for safety is not paranoia.
We essentially have a ban on firearms over here and I am telling you that we don't have the same issue the US clearly does.Quote:
If there were a ban on guns, there would be a massive black market for them, there likely isn't really a black market now because acquiring a gun is legal. You would only accomplish making it impossible for for citizens to own guns, and only marginally harder for criminals to get guns.
This.Quote:
Lots of illegal guns were originally purchased by someone with a licence, then sold to someone without one.
Owning guns is addictive? Like, the purchase of one actively alters the chemicals released in your brain to make you want/need more?Quote:
Really? Take a look at the addiction rate and tell me you see a difference in the past say, 70 years?
I understand that internet anonymity must feel empowering, but flaming in a thread about children dying just because you disagree with something that was said is immature and inconsiderate.Quote:
Originally Posted by slushpuppy
As for the nature of my replies - I believe they were all in the official forum language so don't blame me for not giving a 'coherent response'.
It's clear to me that you are frustrated, but this has nothing to do with this thread and should be taken out somewhere outside of your parent's house, an internet forum or an online game e.g. a martial art's class or the gym. It's just not healthy to deal with personal issues this way and treat online forums/games as a way of stress-relief. :)
I actually do hope Obama outlaws guns shame it took so many massacres and little children to die for it maybe to happen
That is because it is now far too late. You are applying an 18th century law to the 21st century, and against its original intent and purpose, which should not be the case. You have created the mentality that you are unable to live without sidearms, a mentality that is clearly not the case (as evident by strides in anti-gun laws of other nations). Answer me this: why does every other Western nation see a problem with American's having the "right" to bear sidearms (yet American's do not, and yet Americans have some of the highest death rates per year [a statistic which you should not be "proud" of])? Or is it just ignorance on the American part?Quote:
Originally Posted by footballjds
"Better late than never," a philosophy that should be adhered to in this case.
Also, don't give me that crap about people having the "ability" to "create" "explosives" and "even more deadlier weapons" from common household material. People always will, just as they do in other Western nations. Result? Still a significant decrease in the amount of dead per year.
This is so trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Looking around for murder rates - creepy eh?
http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...thomas-sowell#
Regardless I still maintain its a people issue - maybe guns do need to be better regulated, but that won't stop people from killing other people
Reminds me of this amazing film. This film depicts the thoughts of the shooter perfectly. I genuinely urge people to watch it. It's a pure genius piece of film work. And could possibly Open peoples eyes on the scenario
Seeing this was too shocking to put into words. I'm not even sure if it's right...making a movie as graphic as this about something so horrible that actually happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by xtrapsp
Pretty much any film not involving CGI (and crazy monster models?) has happened sometime throughout history :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Runehack123
I don't know of any movies showing Jews dying in gas chambers, the Nanjing massacre and many more... there's a moral line that was crossed here.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyRS
This is a realistic film. It hasn't got crap effects. It's not following Hollywood style. It's shoot following lots of different characters stories.. you see the end before it happens but its not the most shocking bit.
The most shocking bit is seeing everyone after it happens...
What I'm trying to get at is that the film "Elephant" isn't based on any specific shooting but it is a comment on the way these people think. They're humans too... try watching it, the whole film is on YT
Not sure if it's related but this is a damn good film, if you understand French then more for you if not subtitles
La Haine - Maddest film ever made
Un chien Andalou - Maddest film ever made. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr[S]
But back ontopic:
:P
I think that America's way of doing things, coupled with the current gun laws fuels the excessive amount of gun-related deaths in this country. It is not the guns themselves, which has been said time and time again, but the troubled individuals who find themselves in situations with these guns. Our country is fucked beyond belief with respect to the distribution of wealth, and it is pretty much awful education-wise. What happens when people who are lacking in education, money, and a generally happy life have access to their mother's gun? Maybe not everyone will snap and kill a bunch of kids, but not everyone has the mental stability to overpower their emotions. Statistically, bad things will happen with this equation.
This is why I think that there must be a combination of gun control, in addition to tackling the underlying causes of why people would want to commit mass/murder-suicide. Again, I strongly feel that it is linked to education, home-life, and financial stability. When these things go awry, not everyone has the mental capability to deal with it in a healthy way. I think it is analogous to evolution, where we are in some way selecting for these horrible events due to the way our society functions. It is much more complex an issue than most are willing to admit, and as a result we get into this LETS BAN GUNS DEBATE. We do this as if this was the only option.
@FootballJds:
"I gave up on this country, completely. I have no "pride" for my country."
I feel ya man.
Stopped reading after you referenced Bowling For Columbine...:wacko:Quote:
Originally Posted by Runehack123
This. We sit there and talk about how they deserve to be tortured but when you think about it, most of these kids were tortured throughout their whole life (whether it be mentally or physically). We are the reason these things happen and we need to change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo_
Edit: Sorry for double post :/
For the most part I'm anti-gun-control, but this is a post I can absolutely agree with. There are way too many people here who aren't fit to own guns. We shouldn't all have limited rights becuase a few are irrisponsible, but I can agree that something needs to be done. Agree with the economics and education parts as well, finding a solution to that would help more than any amount of gun control. More to come later, I'm typing this from my phone.Quote:
Originally Posted by gerauchert
Good post...this isn't a problem that has a single solution. I do differ in opinion from you though, I believe it is our right to own guns (I am Canadian but I think this should apply to everyone).Quote:
Originally Posted by gerauchert
Does anyone else feel like this is just another bandwagon to jump on? First (well, recently) it was bullying (legislating the crap out of that) now gun control...it feels almost...directed. These are some of my thoughts...
My suggestion: Homeschooling ftw!! (serious :) )
The reason for shootings not being stopped is denial. Read this: http://www.policeone.com/active-shoo...emy-is-denial/
Quote:
“How many kids have been killed by school fire in all of North America in the past 50 years? Kids killed... school fire... North America... 50 years... How many? Zero. That’s right. Not one single kid has been killed by school fire anywhere in North America in the past half a century. Now, how many kids have been killed by school violence?”
So began an extraordinary daylong seminar presented by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a Pulitzer Prize nominated author, West Point psychology professor, and without a doubt the world’s foremost expert on human aggression and violence. The event, hosted by the California Peace Officers Association, was held in the auditorium of a very large community church about 30 miles from San Francisco, and was attended by more than 250 police officers from around the region.
Grossman’s talk spanned myriad topics of vital importance to law enforcement, such as the use of autogenic breathing, surviving gunshot wounds, dealing with survivor guilt following a gun battle, and others. But violence among and against children was how the day began, and so I'll focus on that issue here.
Helping schools prepare for an active-shooter showdown
Sheriff Fred Wegener says that preparing schools for an active shooter is community policing at its best.
“In 1998,” Grossman said, “school violence claimed what at the time was an all time record number of kids’ lives. In that year there were 35 dead and a quarter of a million serious injuries due to violence in the school. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. But we hear people say, ‘That’s the year Columbine happened, that’s an anomaly.’ Well, in 2004 we had a new all time record — 48 dead in the schools from violence. How many killed by fire that year? Zero. Let’s assign some grades. Put your teacher hat on and give out some grades. What kind of grade do you give the firefighter for keeping kids safe? An ‘A,’ right? Reluctantly, reluctantly, the cops give the firefighters an ‘A,’ right? Danged firefighters, they sleep ‘till they’re hungry and eat ‘till they’re tired. What grade do we get for keeping the kids safe from violence? Come on, what’s our grade? Needs improvement, right?”
Johnny Firefighter, A+ Student
“Why can’t we be like little Johnny Firefighter?” Grossman asked as he prowled the stage. “He’s our A+ student!”
He paused, briefly, and answered with a voice that blew through the hall like thunder, “Denial, denial, denial!”
Grossman commanded, “Look up at the ceiling! See all those sprinklers up there? They’re hard to spot — they’re painted black — but they’re there. While you’re looking, look at the material the ceiling is made of. You know that that stuff was selected because it’s fire-retardant. Hooah? Now look over there above the door — you see that fire exit sign? That’s not just any fire exit sign — that’s a ‘battery-backup-when-the-world-ends-it-will-still-be-lit’ fire exit sign. Hooah?”
Walking from the stage toward a nearby fire exit and exterior wall, Grossman slammed the palm of his hand against the wall and exclaimed, “Look at these wall boards! They were chosen because they’re what?! Fireproof or fire retardant, hooah? There is not one stinking thing in this room that will burn!”
Pointing around the room as he spoke, Grossman continued, “But you’ve still got those fire sprinklers, those fire exit signs, fire hydrants outside, and fire trucks nearby! Are these fire guys crazy? Are these fire guys paranoid? No! This fire guy is our A+ student! Because this fire guy has redundant, overlapping layers of protection, not a single kid has been killed by school fire in the last 50 years!
“But you try to prepare for violence — the thing much more likely to kill our kids in schools, the thing hundreds of times more likely to kill our kids in schools — and people think you’re paranoid. They think you’re crazy. ...They’re in denial.”
Teaching the Teachers
The challenge for law enforcement agencies and officers, then, is to overcome not only the attacks taking place in schools, but to first overcome the denial in the minds of mayors, city councils, school administrators, and parents. Grossman said that agencies and officers, although facing an uphill slog against the denial of the general public, must diligently work toward increasing understanding among the sheep that the wolves are coming for their children. Police officers must train and drill with teachers, not only so responding officers are intimately familiar with the facilities, but so that teachers know what they can do in the event of an attack.
“Come with me to the library at Columbine High School,” Grossman said. “The teacher in the library at Columbine High School spent her professional lifetime preparing for a fire, and we can all agree if there had been a fire in that library, that teacher would have instinctively, reflexively known what to do.
"But the thing most likely to kill her kids — the thing hundreds of times more likely to kill her kids, the teacher didn’t have a clue what to do. She should have put those kids in the librarian’s office but she didn’t know that. So she did the worst thing possible — she tried to secure her kids in an un-securable location. She told the kids to hide in the library — a library that has plate glass windows for walls. It’s an aquarium, it’s a fish bowl. She told the kids to hide in a fishbowl. What did those killers see? They saw targets. They saw fish in a fish bowl.”
Grossman said that if the school administrators at Columbine had spent a fraction of the money they’d spent preparing for fire doing lockdown drills and talking with local law enforcers about the violent dangers they face, the outcome that day may have been different.
Rhetorically he asked the assembled cops, “If somebody had spent five minutes telling that teacher what to do, do you think lives would have been saved at Columbine?”
Arming Campus Cops is Elementary
Nearly two years ago, I wrote an article called Arming campus cops is elementary. Not surprisingly, Grossman agrees with that hypothesis.
“Never call an unarmed man ‘security’,” Grossman said.
“Call him ‘run-like-hell-when-the-man-with-the-gun-shows-up’ but never call an unarmed man security.
"Imagine if someone said, ‘I want a trained fire professional on site. I want a fire hat, I want a fire uniform, I want a fire badge. But! No fire extinguishers in this building. No fire hoses. The hat, the badge, the uniform — that will keep us safe — but we have no need for fire extinguishers.’ Well, that would be insane. It is equally insane, delusional, legally liable, to say, ‘I want a trained security professional on site. I want a security hat, I want a security uniform, and I want a security badge, but I don’t want a gun.’ It’s not the hat, the uniform, or the badge. It’s the tools in the hands of a trained professional that keeps us safe.
“Our problem is not money,” said Grossman. “It is denial.”
Grossman said (and most cops agree) that many of the most important things we can do to protect our kids would cost us nothing or next-to-nothing.
Grossman’s Five D’s
Let’s contemplate the following outline and summary of Dave Grossman’s “Five D’s.” While you do, I encourage you to add in the comments area below your suggestions to address, and expand upon, these ideas.
1. Denial — Denial is the enemy and it has no survival value, said Grossman.
2. Deter — Put police officers in schools, because with just one officer assigned to a school, the probability of a mass murder in that school drops to almost zero
3. Detect — We’re talking about plain old fashioned police work here. The ultimate achievement for law enforcement is the crime that didn’t happen, so giving teachers and administrators regular access to cops is paramount.
4. Delay — Various simple mechanisms can be used by teachers and cops to put time and distance between the killers and the kids.
a. Ensure that the school/classroom have just a single point of entry. Simply locking the back door helps create a hard target.
b. Conduct your active shooter drills within (and in partnership with) the schools in your city so teachers know how to respond, and know what it looks like when you do your response.
5. Destroy — Police officers and agencies should consider the following:
a. Carry off duty. No one would tell a firefighter who has a fire extinguisher in his trunk that he’s crazy or paranoid.
b. Equip every cop in America with a patrol rifle. One chief of police, upon getting rifles for all his officers once said, “If an active killer strikes in my town, the response time will be measured in feet per second.”
c. Put smoke grenades in the trunk of every cop car in America. Any infantryman who needs to attack across open terrain or perform a rescue under fire deploys a smoke grenade. A fire extinguisher will do a decent job in some cases, but a smoke grenade is designed to perform the function.
d. Have a “go-to-war bag” filled with lots of loaded magazines and supplies for tactical combat casualty care.
e. Use helicopters. Somewhere in your county you probably have one or more of the following: medevac, media, private, national guard, coast guard rotors.
f. Employ the crew-served, continuous-feed, weapon you already have available to you (a firehouse) by integrating the fire service into your active shooter training. It is virtually impossible for a killer to put well-placed shots on target while also being blasted with water at 300 pounds per square inch.
g. Armed citizens can help. Think United 93. Whatever your personal take on gun control, it is all but certain that a killer set on killing is more likely to attack a target where the citizens are unarmed, rather than one where they are likely to encounter an armed citizen response.
Coming Soon: External Threats
Today we must not only prepare for juvenile mass murder, something that had never happened in human history until only recently, but we also must prepare for the external threat. Islamist fanatics have slaughtered children in their own religion — they have killed wantonly, mercilessly, and without regard for repercussion or regret of any kind. What do you think they’d think of killing our kids?
“Eight years ago they came and killed 3,000 of our citizens. Do we know what they’re going to do next? No! But one thing they’ve done in every country they’ve messed with is killing kids in schools,” Grossman said.
The latest al Qaeda charter states that “children are noble targets” and Osama bin Laden himself has said that “Russia is a preview for what we will do to America.”
What happened in Russia that we need to be concerned with in this context? In the town of Beslan on September 1, 2004 — the very day on which children across that country merrily make their return to school after the long summer break — radical Islamist terrorists from Chechnya took more than 1,000 teachers, mothers, and children hostage. When the three-day siege was over, more than 300 hostages had been killed, more than half of whom were children.
“If I could tackle every American and make them read one book to help them understand the terrorist’s plan, it would be Terror at Beslan by John Giduck. Beslan was just a dress rehearsal for what they’re planning to do to the United States,” he said.
Consider this: There are almost a half a million school buses in America. It would require every enlisted person and every officer in the entire Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps combined to put just one armed guard on every school bus in the country.
As a country and as a culture, the level of protection Americans afford our kids against violence is nothing near what we do to protect them from fire. Grossman is correct: Denial is the enemy. We must prepare for violence like the firefighter prepares for fire. And we must do that today.
Hooah, Colonel!
We should make very strict vehicle laws also. Nobody can drive a vehicle in the USA because it's the cars that are killing people in wrecks, not the people behind the wheel of the car.... If you think stricter gun laws will prevent things like this Connecticut shooting, you're very ignorant.
However cheesy and overused this saying is, it's 100% true... Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
I'd be in favor of banning cars if their only purpose was to kill. Cars are used for transportation. Guns are used for killing. Not the same at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjordan
If a pencil was used to stab someone in the neck and was then on the news, who here would support banning pencils in schools?
If there was no gun, he would have killed people anyway, stop blaming the gun and blame the person
It is far easier and faster to kill a room full of kids with a gun than with a pencil. Sure, with a pencil he could have killed one if he was lucky, but guess what? He had two pistols and a rifle, and killed 28.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyRS
Note: I'm not saying he isn't at fault, I'm just saying less kids would have died if he hadn't had guns.
Ok, spose like ashaman mentioned, he used chemcals from any chemist to make a bomb, and killed more than 50 people, do we blame the chemicals?
Guns made it easier, but if his actual intent was to kill, plenty of better methods he could have used, already mentioned, drive a car through the wall into the assembly, bet that does more damage than a gun could ever do, your saying thats not the cars fault simply because the car is normally "transportation"
Guns are a good tool, and should not be banned in any country imo
If someone really wants to kill a room full of kids they will.. if he would not have gotten them from his mom he would have gotten them elseware.Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWxi
Voice of Mr Makay *Mmmmmm guns are bad* :cartman:Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyRS
You forgot the Mkay at the end,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr[S]
Guns are not bad, people are bad
I think psychiatric help is the issue, it seems to me that all of these lunatics who harm innocent people all have one thing in common, and that is the failure of those around them to recognize (or act on) the signs of mental illness. With all the stuff going on in the world today it is becoming increasingly important to monitor your loved ones to make sure that everything is going as it should. Obviously, some things will be missed, which is tragic, but the majority of these situations could have been avoided had someone stepped up and done something. Now, I get that many people don't believe mental instability causes these horrific events, but what right-minded individual would willingly murder children. There is no justifying lack of innocence in Kindergarten age children. We need to focus less on controlling weapons and more on the people who would use them.