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Thread: Man VS. Nature

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    Default Man VS. Nature

    Why is it that man (male and female collectively) is constantly trying to seperate himself from nature? We construct over the land that gave us birth, we kill with pesticides, we destroy in countless ways... Why is it that we are the only Great Apes, that do not follow a diet based on Vegetarianism? This is not meant to start a Meat Eater VS. Tree Hugger debate.. These are just my thoughts. I usually do not quote, however, as Einstein stated:

    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

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    I'm really glad you said this. ^^ I'm taking sociology right now at school, and this is definitely part of the nature vs. nurture argument. I personally believe in the nurture part, and so my answer to your question is that's how we've been raised. Stuff like crime and obesity and all these things we do in America (dunno if it's much different in the UK or not.. so I'll just go off America for now ) is much more accepted than it is other places. If you steal here, you can tell your friends, and not be looked down upon, and if you get caught, you just pay a fine, basically.. In other countries you'd be shunned and have your hands cut off.. >_> I dunno how old you are or if you've looked at it from a sociological perspective, but it's interesting.

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    I dont think we are trying to seperate from nature, as much as make life easyer. Living out in the bush just isnt as much fun as sitting on your butt and playing runescape all day. And we use pesticides because it saves money (better crops cause there were no bugs to eat them.)
    We are humans, not apes, our digestive tract is very differant and meat is alot better tasting than vedgitarian protine supplements.

    Edit: wow ian! didnt expect to see you back here haha. Guess this nulifies your dramatic goodbye post xD

    And with the nature vs nurture thing. I think of it more as Genetics vs Enviorment, which on average both play equily important rolls on how a person develops, but some people's genetics create them to be stronger than the enviorment they live in, while others are made weaker which would explain how some people get crushed by there enviorment and some react to it, overcoming it.
    Last edited by Lance; 09-16-2009 at 11:41 AM.
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    Man separates himself from nature and other animals, because he is very separate from them. He is the only creature fully capable of using logic and reason. He uses this gift to make his standard of living higher than other animals. You seem to be arguing that man should live a simple life, like that of an ape; that he has complicated it too much. If that is what you're saying, then would you really like to live in the woods, without lights, air conditioning, heating, etc.?

    I think I answered your question, but I wasn't entirely sure what you were asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bullzeye95 View Post
    Man separates himself from nature and other animals, because he is very separate from them. He is the only creature fully capable of using logic and reason. He uses this gift to make his standard of living higher than other animals. You seem to be arguing that man should live a simple life, like that of an ape; that he has complicated it too much. If that is what you're saying, then would you really like to live in the woods, without lights, air conditioning, heating, etc.?

    I think I answered your question, but I wasn't entirely sure what you were asking.
    :/ I wouldn't say we're the only creatures fully capable of using logic and reason.. Other animals definitely use logic and reason. Birds migrate, and know where to migrate to satisfy their needs. That definitely seems logical and rational to me. And monkeys/apes/chimpanzees/orangutans/whatever you prefer can definitely use signs and facial expressions and make and use (basic) tools to help with their life styles.

    Lance, I'm actually not really here.. >_> Haha I was gonna ask about web hosting (I'll report anyone who posts here about that.. :/ PM me if you have something to say about that instead).. Why do you think genes have more to do with it? (I'm not saying you're wrong.. I believe in social determinism and not free will, just because that makes more sense to me.. I'm just wondering, yo. ^^ haha)

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    i dont know about logic or reason, but i know crows are extreamly inteligent (for animals) they are capable of making tools / using humans to get what they want > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhmZB...eature=related

    and ian, I say genetics because our genes are the blueprints to the human body. Haha i agree with you, about us not having free will. To me I only see two influances that effect our choices geenes and enviorment. Our genes create our bodies to react to our envirment a certain way, and with the mixture of differant genes and differant enviorments creates all the differant people
    Lance. Da. Pants.

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    Well if that were true (genes being a part of our choices), then explain something like feral children. A girl named Oksana (I have no idea what her last name is :/) was raised by dogs, so now she can't learn to speak, she walks on her hands and feet (possibly knees, but they didn't show much of her walking, and she can stand on her two feet if she must, not sure about walking on just her feet though, or running or jogging or balance, but you get the point.. hopefully.. ), barks like a dog, drinks water like a dog and doesn't use her hands, and a few other non human traits she has are from her upbringing. She's like this because her parents were alcoholics and they left her outside in the cold (in Russia, if I recall correctly), and she went into the family's dog's cage and the dogs treated her as her own. Then her parents continued to neglect her (she was about three years old, I think), and she lived for 10 years with the dogs being her family. Now barking and walking on all fours and breathing like a dog most definitely isn't part of her genes.

    Another example was in California. There was a child who was raised in a basement, strapped to her potty chair, and at night put in a cage. Every day like this for 13 years. And neither her parents nor brother were allowed to talk to her (her father's mother died in a car crash or some sort of accident not long after the child was born, and he was extremely depressed, and decided not to raise her). Her brain was very undeveloped, had no chance at all of learning how to speak due to that, and her body was that of a 7 year old. She's in her mid 40's, if she's alive today, and she can't really function in the real world because she just doesn't understand how. If you think that it's stupid or just a small chance that could happen or anything like that, you'd be the same way if you were raised seeing 2-3 people, without being spoken a word to, for the first 13 years of your life. And this isn't part of her genetics at all, it's, again, her upbringing.

    Two last examples (shorter, I know that reading long blocks of text isn't the most exciting thing to do ;]), are involving chimpanzes or whatever primate they were testing. The first (more intriguing to me), was when a sociologist (not sure of his name), brought a new born (extremely new born, a few days old or less as far as I know) into his home and raised it along side his one (or two) year old son. For awhile the test was showing a lot. The monkey wore a diaper and walked alongside the child and explored and had fun and ate with him, but then the child chose not to talk, and to use signs and facial expressions to communicate with his family and others. The test was immediately stopped, and I'm pretty sure the boy started talking again and is fine now, and same with the monkey (it wasn't a long experiment due to the boy's mental health being a risk).

    Another short one was a monkey (a few days old like the other) was taken away from it's family and mother and all primate interaction and would be given the choice of a piece of molded wire with a fuzzy, comfortable material wrapped around it, or a molded wire with milk, and the monkey chose the warmth and comfort every single time (and it was tested on multiple monkeys so it wasn't just that one's genetics). And once it was older it was put into a room with three other monkeys (possibly family, I'm not sure and don't want to make anything up), and it hid itself and went into a corner and the others went to it and it ran away. Obviously not just it's genetics.

    Something else I have to say is that my parents had me when they were 40/41. I was raised to like oldies music and watch old films and do drugs and treat women poorly. I don't do any of those (well.. pot every once in awhile.. but they drank and did crack and stuff). I wear skinny jeans and straighten my hair and look like I don't care and listen to metal because that's what those few people that I think are cool do. I really don't think anyone can say it's just what they do because they do (they can't truthfully say that, anyway); it's based on what there "social idols" do. That could possibly be (and is in some cases) there parents, but that's not genetic. That's just social determinism.

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    Lance, actually I think I'd prefer the bush. I'd rather pick a fresh peach, or persimmon of a tree than play RuneScape. ( Even though the latter makes studying far less boring. )
    What you say about pesticides is true... However, once you ingest them, there is no benefit. And it's nearly impossible to be protein dificent, in order for that to occur you'd have to just stop eating. -__-. Protein is not limited to animal sources, there is plant protein. It's just converted into glucose either way, q ;.
    Bullzeye, My argument is not that man should live as an ape, but should live as a human.
    And to answer your quesiton about heating and whatnot, I don't use those things. I barely use electricity as it is. I can confidently say that I could live without all these things, house included. I wasn't truly asking a question, per say. I was asking for your opinion. So truthfully you did answer my question. But I stick to the fact that humans are Great Apes. Just because we have our fancy gadgets, and opress other animals ( not to mention our arrogance in thinking that we are better than everything, but yet still fear a "god" ) doesn't change that we are "animals" ourselves.

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    Just wondering.. how old are you? And I assume your religion/beliefs/faith/whatever floats your boat is nihilism? I don't think people fear a god, for the most part. I was raised Christian, went to church every Sunday, blah blah blah, but I believe in science more than a god.. I do believe, however, that there's nothing wrong with God, and no two gods are much different; they're just there for moral support and to have someone or something there for you. That makes perfect sense to me, but I don't think something that we can't hold or see or touch or even agree on just, one day, decided to make this Earth, as complex as it is, and Venus and Mars and Jupiter and Uranus and Neptune and our whole solar system, and everything. I don't know for sure if there is or isn't though, and neither do you, nor does anyone.

    ANYWHO! I don't think we're better than everything.. you're being quite prejudice and stereotypical, in my opinion. Sure, Bill Gates thinks (and honestly is, for the most part) better than a lot of people. I think some people are better than me (well, a lot..), and a lot of people think that people are bad (I personally don't like quite a bit of the human race). You can't really tell a starving child in Uganda or something (I know, comparing Americans to starving children in third world countries makes everything look bad, but you're most definitely not specifying anything at all.. just saying that "our" arrogance isn't very specific. This would fit perfectly well for a homeless child in America, too) that they're arrogant for thinking they're better than you or I am, because, truth be told, neither you or I or that child thinks they are. As horrible as it sounds that I'm truthfully better than a starving child in a third world country, it's the truth. I can act more "socially acceptable" than (s)he can, and I can make food, and program, and make people feel good about themselves, and a lot of other things, that (s)he can't. Of course they could learn, but I think it'd be best for them to not. Our society is fucked.. simple as that. But it's just kinda how it is. AND! If you compare me to someone else in America, or even my neighbor, I'd say we're about equal. He's probably a bit better than me, as he's smarter and harder working. If you compared that starving child to his neighbor, they'd probably be equal too.. :/

    I'm rambling and stuff now.. >_>

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    Not everyone follows a vegetarian diet because our bodies were meant to process meat also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian. View Post
    long post
    I think by being better than "everything" he meant every other species on the planet. If that's the case, I'd agree with him.
    :-)

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    What you say about pesticides is true... However, once you ingest them, there is no benefit. And it's nearly impossible to be protein dificent, in order for that to occur you'd have to just stop eating. -__-. Protein is not limited to animal sources, there is plant protein. It's just converted into glucose either way, q ;.
    There are benifits, as I said before, and thats the farmers make bigger PROFFIT. The farmers dont care about people they care about money. And people im sure would love to eat only organic food if it wasnt so much more EXPENCIVE. People dont eat pesticides because of nutritional benifit but because they dont want to spend all that money on it. Money (which brings easy living) is the reason people do what they do. And I never said meat was the only way to get protine, I said it is the most enjoyable way. Meat tastes really good and traditionaly it has been a symbol of welth to be eating good fatty meat since as far back into history as I know (which is only like 3000 years?) xD

    And you saying you prefer the bush, well why are you on the computer right now? I dont mean to be harsh but the fact that your living under your parents roof and have probably never had to work for your own food or survial makes me think you dont really understand how difficult a life in the bush would be. I know in your mind you must have a very good idea of what it must be to live off the land and grow your own food, but thats all fantasy. If you really lived up on a mountain and ate berries and roots, who would you live with? what would you do with your time all day? how would you survive the winters without a supermarket to go and buy your food from? do you think its really that great having to grow your own crops without any machines, or to get up at 5am in the dead of winter to go and hunt for animals (again without guns or man made killing machines) to eat? :P or to go and gather your own wood to burn and keep warm?

    And also what you say about humans being apes. Were not. Were humans. If you want to continue arguing that then take biology. And saying that humans are animals is just arguing the deffinition of the word "animal". What do you mean exactly when you say humans are animals? because i would agree.. we do all the same things animals do.. we eat, move around, poo, mate.. but we also have a higher inteligance than any other creature on this planet and we use that inteligence to make our lives easyer and more enjoyable.

    and @ Ian, i never said geenes was everything, i said it was a mix of geenes and enviorment (which would be the dogs in the first example / your dad in the last).

    But what i think is our bodies are made a certain way, (which is because of our genes) and then we are thrown into an enviorment (everything you ever come in contact with).

    And the way we react to our enviorment was predetermined by our genes.

    Example:
    a) Child grows up in a very sheltering and religous family, and is geneticaly disposed to react against his enviorment. Then he would rebel against his parents and the religion etc.
    b) same senario but the child is geneticaly disposed to react with his envoirment, accept it and let it dictate his life. Then he would grow up embracing his parents ways.
    Lance. Da. Pants.

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    If you asked this to a large group of people, i'd bet you any money the general consensus would be for nature. That is what most people want, but the problem is no one is willing to act on that opinion. All these people can say that this is what they want, but no one has the guts to actually stand up and make the change that should be. I agree with you, and, personaly, i am doing a lot of stuff to keep the earth 'green'. Man was not created to destroy that which keeps man alive, being nature, but to live beside nature, with nature as an equal, instead of an object to destroy and build on. Nature keeps man alive, and what do we give her in return? Fire. Pollution. Destruction. Nature deserves better then what we give her, dosn't she?

    To quote from the matrix():
    I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.
    I agree with his analogy, but not his cure (obviously). We are a canser to this planet, but the cure is to give back to nature what we took away. I've done this by joining a scout group. We plant trees, camp in the wilderness without bringing anything along. I'll admit, I was forced to join a scout group, but I'm glad that I'm in it now. It has changed my look over the world, and I've realized, to put it crudely, 'how shitty this world actually is'.

    Give back what you took, make this world green again!

    Sure I'm a hippie tree huger, rock on xD
    Last edited by Bionicle; 09-19-2009 at 06:40 AM.
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    Evolution.

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    some people are destroying the world because they put short term profits before long term stability.
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    No way we destroy the planet... We will just make it uninhabitable... for a while. Then small creatures will once again crawl out of the ooze.

    The planet will do fine, we'd be fucked though.

    Accept that the waters around you have grown.

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    If you truly believed in living like an Ape then a simple solution would be to move to an unpopulated wilderness area (maybe a jungle to keep the theme going) and subsist off of nothing but nature and wait for everyone to flock to your cause

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savageintoxicant View Post
    If you truly believed in living like an Ape then a simple solution would be to move to an unpopulated wilderness area (maybe a jungle to keep the theme going) and subsist off of nothing but nature and wait for everyone to flock to your cause
    until people invade and 'tame' the wilderness and add buildings and cars and polution
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    Default ohhhh

    Well... just for the passed few weeks I have been reading the Lord of the Flies. Unfortunately, I found it anti-human propaganda. In essence, Mr. William Golding is the cult leader trying to convince us that humans twist and mess up everything. He suggests the Earth to be our predecessor, so therefore we should let it be left alone? Again... I'm a believer in God, so, we have upon us bestowed a gift unlike any other. Go ahead and go Richard Dawkins on me, idc. I say him to be the cult leader since he's suggesting it'd be better for us to die than live with a damaged environment. Now, some person is going to say I condone dumping crap into the ocean and environment, and that is, however, not the case. People, realize, you're reading this on the internet because we made it. Did apes create the internet? (Al Gore thinks he did, close to an ape) Really, we are superior for many reasons. Back to the Lord of the Flies, however... I couldn't stand it. Maybe it was due to my teacher's very very liberal view on it, and suggesting that humans shouldn't be on the planet because we use it all too much. We're special people. You need to understand, though, that just saying what I am saying doesn't mean I want us to destroy our Earth. But I am most definitely not saying we are to remove ourselves from nature because we are "destroying?" it.

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    i mean in order for progress to occur, we have to "separate" ourselves from nature somewhat. We've got to leave the primitive jungle lifestyle and create cities and forums for technological progress. it isn't a bad thing necessarily, if you consider how the lifespan of humans have increased so much since centuries ago.

    furthermore, you can't forget the rising "green movement". In a couple decades, it'll probably evolve into something gigantic, so our environmental problems will be minimized. Ironically, it is the separation from nature that gives us the knowledge to reverse our destruction of nature.

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    Evolution. Instead of all the global warming kind of things you've heard, give it a thought like this - Everything we do is natural and, maybe not meant to happen, but it isn't right or wrong, it's nature. Let's say there is an ant race, that uses potato peels together with apple peels to build the queen's room in the nest. Over time, due to ant's urin and other body fluids, the peel mass extracts a chemical that affects the nature within ten meters, which causes some flowers not to grow there. Should somebody try to stop the ants?

    Ofcourse global warming and other destruction of the nature is "horrible", but nature doesn't think about it. Nature just changes, it's meant to happen, not global warming and the ice melting, but anything that happens is meant to happen. It's because of emotions that we care about nature, or races going to extinction, but in a billion years from now, does it mean anything? Doubt it. Water taking over the big cities, does nature think about the families that will die? No. Does nature care if ten thousand ants die in a flood? No.

    It's evolution, there is no care involved, yes, it's shitty, but what are you gonna do about it?

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    Gravity. Give a thought to this, everything we do is natural and maybe not meant to happen. Suppose a bridge collapses due to gravity, should we try to stop this natural process?

    Of course things falling down due to natural gravity is horrible, but nature doesnt think about it or care. Nature just changes. Its because of our emotions that we care about things falling down onto tigers and making them extinct. But a billion years from now, does it mean anything? Doubt it. Does nature care about the avalance, driven by gravity that kills loads of families? No. Does nature care about the tunnels of an ants nest collapsing? No.


    It's gravity, there is no care involved, yes, it's shitty, but what are you gonna do about it?


    Satire Over.

    using evolution as an argument to not stop climate change is like using gravity as an argument to not pick things up off the floor.

    Science in general and evolution in particular is descriptive, not prescriptive. Evolution tells us why we're here, but its not a model to how we should live our lives.


    I personally think that a society where everyone behaved with their genes in mind would be a very nasty society to live in. It would be something like social darwinism or pure unregulated capitalism.

    One more example, evolution made our bodies love the taste of sugar, because where we evolved sugar was hard to get and humans needed it. But with our modern technology we can now easily manufacture sugar, yet if we listen to our evolutionary instinct and eat a lot of sugar, we will become fat and actually shorten our lives.



    Yes we should try to stop climate change.
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    I'm back guys.. Had real world issues to attend to, I guess I have to read through all the post in the thread?..

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    Ok, I'm not reading through most of these post. Once again, I feel like my lifestyle is being attacked, rather than us debating on the collective human consciousness. I am not asking anyone to look to science and tell us what we should and should not eat. I am not talking about living in trees and huts and etc. The only thing that seperates us from "animals" is imperfection. We humans obviously feel the need to improve apon nature. We create drugs, stimulants and the list goes on and onnn.. We always look to someone else to tell us what is right and wrong to eat. What animal does this? Of course animals have social behaviors, but they don't need to ask what needs to be eaten. Herbivores eat plant foods. Carnivores eat other animals. Frugivores eat fruit. Omnivores eat everything. I wanted to talk about human arrogance, ego etc.
    Ian, if you can read this. I'm very much Nihilistic, you could say.
    Well, afterall this is a runescape forum. :|. But I really loved reading Yakman's post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyte9934 View Post
    Ian, if you can read this. I'm very much Nihilistic, you could say.
    err...Ian.'s banned O_O
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