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Thread: The new RiD Genesis. (again)

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFools View Post
    This thread is so active with so many different opinions; but because it simple exist at villavu, many here have strong connections to this community and simba. As a community we have yet to see any striking benefits from RID that is superior to any of the projects here.

    I actually take my hat off too you @Trent!; as you are very diplomatic in your responses and i can understand why RID would want somebody like yourself doing the PR, I dam would! because you're good at it. (I have previously been very hostile towards your posts)

    With all that aside can you please ASK RID for a ETA on this project as this will calm the nerves for most of the community here following RIDs updates to see if the HYPE meets the actually 'full-releases' ability; as most active members here have their own project rather than using somebody else's. (in most cases)

    ** My opinion is that Trent! even as an active part of RID, i don't think RID (who the hell is rid btw? a name? bob or john?) has provided you with a transparent look at what (s)he is doing nor his/her direction. No fault of your own, but jumping on a ship without knowing it direction can always be toxic. Such as some of the replies directed at you.

    My stance is neutral on this project/thread; i see no reason for people making toxic posts, as i have done myself in the past. It benefits no one and seems to side track this thread and so many threads. There are actually a few gems in this thread. =[
    As much as I wish we could get an accurate ETA, knowing RiD, it's not likely to happen. Even if I were to convince him to give one, it wouldn't likely be accurate. He doesn't really seem to be concerned with exactly when it will be done, he's simply concerned with making sure it meets his expectations. It's kind of one of those "It's done when it's done" moments. I don't like not knowing, but I've been there long enough and seen him do behind-the-scenes development when I was staff, and so I'm used to it and have grown to trust him.

    Unfortunately, RiD has always been a pretty mysterious kind of guy. It's difficult knowing what's going on in his head and what his plans are. While yes, there are definitely risks that come with boarding a ship without knowing where it's going, but there can also be great reward if you know the reputation of the captain of that ship and have trust in him. I know a lot of people here don't understand my loyalty to RiD, but that's because they don't have the same perspective I do. I've had plenty of experience using his bots, I've worked for him in the past, and I've never seen anything in the last 5 years that would make me doubt him. *shrug*

    Quote Originally Posted by J_R View Post
    Also @Trent!; I'd highly highly suggest that video sooner rather than later. Tbh, even if it's not like a youtube hit, as long as it shows the extent of what is possible when the stars are aligned correctly (theoretically if RiD is testing, over several years there's a pretty high chance at least one of the runs was impressive enough to vid... if not then there are obviously other issues...). You'd be surprised on how big of a morale boost it could be for pretty much no-very little effort.
    Unfortunately it's not up to me to decide when the video is posted. I'm sure that once RiD is comfortable with the idea, that he will make one himself or ask someone else to. I'd prefer it to be sooner than later, but we all know that RiD has stuff going on in his mind that he doesn't say out loud, but I'm sure he has a plan in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    Not that far off from correct (@The Simba Noob). Now keep in mind that sequentially doesn't necessarily mean that it's the same exact process through every iteration. The GUI visually maps out the possible sequences, and things can go in a few different directions.
    Don't take this the wrong way, it's just an observation related to the above posts. I find it kinda funny how you say 'not that far from correct' as if you know more about how genesis works than I do. Those few sentences I wrote are the most in-depth description of how genesis works ever written on any forum since its conception. The main reason most of the scriptwriters here don't really take you seriously is because you throw around RiD jargon without actually understanding what it means (in terms of the actual code/logic/structure). This thread is about people's thoughts on the feasibility of genesis, and you haven't provided any factual evidence about anything (only what it might be able to do, how much it costs, some monthly updates etc). I guess it's basically your target audience. Most of the people here have some knowledge of programming, so I guess you could say they aren't as naive as people on other botting sites. If you have created bots in the past you no longer think 'oh that's cool' but more along the lines of 'oh that's cool, I wonder how it works'. This is my take on all the arguments/bashing on this thread anyway, as it really seems to be Trent vs the rest.

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    I think this thread derailed from 'is genesis possible/going to work like advertised' to 'let's say abandon the RiD thread because it's been 2 years'

    The time it's taken shouldn't be the main focal point, it should be the project itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NKN View Post
    I think this thread derailed from 'is genesis possible/going to work like advertised' to 'let's say abandon the RiD thread because it's been 2 years'

    The time it's taken shouldn't be the main focal point, it should be the project itself.
    I think this is because we've stalemated in discussing the project itself.

    There hasn't really been a step in the project yet that can be acceptably discussed between SRL members and the RiD representatives. Any information provided by RiD/the team, SRL points out the flaws, and the reply to that is basically "the product is unfinished so the pointed out flaws are irrelevant."

    Pretty much everyone has given their opinion on Genesis' feasibility, so we just have to wait and see who is right. As a result, this thread has been going in circles every post. We won't be able to really have a genuine discussion until Genesis is declared finished (when a stated flaw can no longer be excused away), so then the discussion naturally shifts to "when will it be finished."
    Last edited by Clarity; 01-06-2016 at 04:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Simba Noob View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way, it's just an observation related to the above posts. I find it kinda funny how you say 'not that far from correct' as if you know more about how genesis works than I do. Those few sentences I wrote are the most in-depth description of how genesis works ever written on any forum since its conception. The main reason most of the scriptwriters here don't really take you seriously is because you throw around RiD jargon without actually understanding what it means (in terms of the actual code/logic/structure). This thread is about people's thoughts on the feasibility of genesis, and you haven't provided any factual evidence about anything (only what it might be able to do, how much it costs, some monthly updates etc). I guess it's basically your target audience. Most of the people here have some knowledge of programming, so I guess you could say they aren't as naive as people on other botting sites. If you have created bots in the past you no longer think 'oh that's cool' but more along the lines of 'oh that's cool, I wonder how it works'. This is my take on all the arguments/bashing on this thread anyway, as it really seems to be Trent vs the rest.
    By "not far from correct" I was referring to accuracy in relation to what information we have been told. Some people have been making statements that are not in tandem with what has been told, so I was simply making a comment that what you said is in harmony.

    While I do have some experience with programming, I'm ultimately restricted by RiD's willingness to reveal information, which he doesn't do often. Honestly I'd loving nothing more than to have the information at hand to satisfy the curiosity of those in question, but what I give is simply what we have to work with. And when I'm being noticeably intentionally vague, it's generally because I'm not allowed to give ou that information (or at least, not yet), or the information simply isn't available yet. I really do wish to give out more, but I'm limited.

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    So all this talk, and waiting for a fancy mouse recorder? It just has a fancy UI, nothing really game changing about that.
    Away for awhile, life is keeping me busy. | Want to get my attention in a thread? @Kyle Undefined; me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Undefined View Post
    So all this talk, and waiting for a fancy mouse recorder? It just has a fancy UI, nothing really game changing about that.
    Genesis in a nutshell..
    Hi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Undefined View Post
    So all this talk, and waiting for a fancy mouse recorder? It just has a fancy UI, nothing really game changing about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickyy View Post
    Genesis in a nutshell..

    It is easy to say that without really thinking about the implications of a concept like genesis. If it works 101% as advertised, it will be a game changer, hands down. Here's why:

    Imagine you wanted to run nats in the abyss, or kill frost dragons and bank their bones; all you would have to do is record yourself doing a few loads and then sit back and reap the rewards. The fact that RiD doesn't use a client, and uses your mouse (exactly like simba) means there is very little possibility of being detected. If every botter and gold farmer utilized a tool like this, they could get exactly what bot they wanted, and be undetectable. It would render the art of writing a script meaningless. Powerbot, tribot, epicbot, topbot, simba etc. would all be, for the most part, utterly useless. The implications of this will likely flow further downstream: people can bot without getting banned, farms will be more sustainable, the value of GP (and XP) will shift, and maybe even the whole RS economy and the game itself. Now the question falls back to 'will it work as advertised?', which is the purpose of this thread.

    If genesis used reflection, there would be no doubt in my mind that most tasks could be recorded (simply a matter of recording IDs and tiles to generate click locations and paths). The reason I say most, is because even with reflection, the ‘record yourself play’ strategy means there is no way to overcome situations where there is no sequential order of events and logic has to be hard-coded (a written script) or generated on the fly (a human). For example, even if you record 1000 slayer tasks in a row with genesis, the script still has no way of linking your currently assigned task with the mob you should kill, without being explicitly told to do so. This is why non sequential activities like dungeoneering, gnome restaurant, some boss fights, fully automated slayer, amongst others, are impossible with this approach, color or not. Shortly after the genesis concept was announced, RiD stated it won’t be able to record activities like these. This is why.
    The fact that genesis is color-based adds extreme complication. This will likely limit the types of activities people can record, even activities that have a sequential flow, like frost dragons.

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    I'm not trying to bash RiD, or the work he has done. It just seems all of this secrecy and hype, and wait, seems a bit much for a project like this. I thought the project was way different than what it is, that's all. I see what you're saying, and it sounds like it could be meaningful. However, I wouldn't call other bots useless. With that in mind, if there's no script and it's just following a recording, what about randoms (If they're still in the game), or other events that a user wouldn't have a recording for? Being that Genesis would work for more games besides RS, how would it deal with those games "anti-bot" systems (if any). Just recording yourself doing something and having it work 100% of the time doesn't seem that "safe" to me. Granted, I don't know all of the technical details of how the system works or creates the "scripts" and such, there has to be more to it than record, play, reap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Undefined View Post
    I'm not trying to bash RiD, or the work he has done. It just seems all of this secrecy and hype, and wait, seems a bit much for a project like this. I thought the project was way different than what it is, that's all. I see what you're saying, and it sounds like it could be meaningful. However, I wouldn't call other bots useless. With that in mind, if there's no script and it's just following a recording, what about randoms (If they're still in the game), or other events that a user wouldn't have a recording for? Being that Genesis would work for more games besides RS, how would it deal with those games "anti-bot" systems (if any). Just recording yourself doing something and having it work 100% of the time doesn't seem that "safe" to me. Granted, I don't know all of the technical details of how the system works or creates the "scripts" and such, there has to be more to it than record, play, reap.
    These are all very valid concerns. Since randoms are either removed/optional in RS, I don't think there are any immediate plans for handling them; however, RiD did discuss the possibility of him dedicating time specifically to such areas in addition to managing the platform. In the past, RiD did not put that much time into randoms due to priorities, but with Genesis, he would have more time to do so. Also, crash logs do contain enough information that would allow a user to add failsafes for events that occur outside of calibration sessions. Now, I cannot think of any games that have interactable detection systems or bot disruptions (like randoms) that do not have an acceptable threshold for human error. Another idea RiD had was to allow a section of the website that would display screenshots or something of the sort that would allow users to complete randoms or such events remotely. Obviously these are simply rough ideas and there are no specific details to how it would work or any potential flaws, but I believe this is one of those things that he may be pondering in the back of his mind, but won't make any decisions on until action becomes necessary. I'm just as interested as you are to see what he comes up with.

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    I've heard of RiD for a few years now, but have never experienced it myself due to not wanting to pay ( at the time ), lack of decent scripts etc. Then with all the hubbub about Genesis floating around, and the price tag to get into the beta/whatever it is they're doing, I'm glad I never got into it. For what it's worth, at the end I do hope it's not a huge scam, that would be terrible for the people who have invested their time/money into it.

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    My opinion on this whole RiD bot is a scam...I never used it in the past but from what ive seen around and read about, its just all hype but no results? RiD first mentioned genesis on 2013, in 2014 showed a feature on how it works,2015 and 2016 still nothing? It also seems to favor whoever pays the most or pays in general; as they will get certain advantages. As i have grown to love simba due to the fact that i can see the actual code of what im using on my main and bots..Any type of antiban with RiD? Because if it records your movements and follows it wont it make it bot-like? So much more things but i wont say it due to being hostile...

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarity View Post
    We won't be able to really have a genuine discussion until Genesis is declared finished (when a stated flaw can no longer be excused away), so then the discussion naturally shifts to "when will it be finished."
    Like clarity said, we won't know exactly what to expect until it fully comes out or when will it actually be "finished"

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Simba Noob View Post
    The fact that RiD doesn't use a client, and uses your mouse (exactly like simba) means there is very little possibility of being detected. If every botter and gold farmer utilized a tool like this, they could get exactly what bot they wanted, and be undetectable.

    If genesis used reflection, there would be no doubt in my mind that most tasks could be recorded (simply a matter of recording IDs and tiles to generate click locations and paths).
    Every bot is detectable. Doesn't matter if they use a client or not. The only way I could probably suggest otherwise is private bots. Purely because they'd be somewhat unidentified.

    If Genesis used Reflection then the shelf life of Genesis would be shorter than the time it took to write it. NXT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    Every bot is detectable. Doesn't matter if they use a client or not. The only way I could probably suggest otherwise is private bots. Purely because they'd be somewhat unidentified.

    If Genesis used Reflection then the shelf life of Genesis would be shorter than the time it took to write it. NXT.
    So if I play the game legit on the official client am I botting? Because that is what it will eventually come down to, with concepts like genesis.

    I never said he should use reflection, it was just to illustrate a point. Besides, genesis won't be released before NXT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    Every bot is detectable. Doesn't matter if they use a client or not. The only way I could probably suggest otherwise is private bots. Purely because they'd be somewhat unidentified.

    If Genesis used Reflection then the shelf life of Genesis would be shorter than the time it took to write it. NXT.
    I think you're forgetting that with the way Genesis works, every script a user makes is equivalent to a private bot. On the topic of NXT, it won't delay development. In fact, any updates required for scripts would be as simple as running a new calibration session.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    On the topic of NXT, it won't delay development.
    Bullshit, of course it will delay development. You don't even know what NXT will look like and what new problems it will throw your way. Hell, genesis isn't even functional as of now so don't be so naive. Of course, the end users won't notice these delays because they will just get merged with all the previous delays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Simba Noob View Post
    Bullshit, of course it will delay development. You don't even know what NXT will look like and what new problems it will throw your way. Hell, genesis isn't even functional as of now so don't be so naive. Of course, the end users won't notice these delays because they will just get merged with all the previous delays.
    I've reviewed the available information provided by Jagex regarding NXT, and I would like to revise my previous statement.

    I'm going to list what we do know so far and address whether or not each bullet would require an update:

    Graphical improvements
    • Increased draw distance and ability to see players and NPCs from further away than before. The player will be able to see a bit less than the "size of Lumbridge Castle around you in a square" when playing on maximum settings. - No effect. Genesis already supports variable draw distance and zoom levels.
    • Fully dynamic lighting and shadows. Shadows will be cast in real time, rather than being spot shadows, and will fall onto the player's character and other scenery rather than being cast onto walls and floors. - Theoretically possible for no update to be required, simply a new calibration session. However, I do see a possible need for an update to world item scanning.
    • Improved water with normal mapping of waves; real-time reflection of objects and shadows, including the character's shadow, in the water; and refraction (seeing objects through water when objects are underwater). - Could possibly require updates to world item scanning, however without seeing what it will look like I am unsure.
    • Fog augmented with physically correct atmospheric scattering. This will stop there being harsh cut-offs in fog, with a fade to "haze" in the distance. - Possible update necessary for world item scanning, but I doubt it.
    • Use of MSAA anti-aliasing rather than the previously used FXAA anti-aliasing. - No effect.
    • NXT will be going back to using Java sky domes, rather than the current cubic environment maps from HTML5, so that the Art Team do not have to maintain 2 sets of sky boxes. - No effect.
    • Will support normal mapping. - No effect.


    Environment
    • Ability to zoom in and out on the minimap. The minimap will be rendered from above rather than being built out of metadata. - Will require update to Map creation for full functionality, although fixed zoom on maps shouldn't have an effect.
    • The world map will look the same but will have faster loading times. - No effect.
    • Audio aspects will still be distributed in the same way but they will be streamed dynamically, eliminating some of the lag between audio being downloaded and it being played. - No effect.
    • A full screen client option will be supported for all operating systems. There will be a borderless full screen window mode. - No effect. A custom environment would be all that is necessary. Any necessary updates to environment creation wouldn't be very big.


    Technical
    • Better performance and visuals than Java-based client on all machines. More capable PCs will have exponentially better performance. - No effect.
    • No difference between DirectX and OpenGL graphics modes. DirectX will be indirectly supported as a fallback for OpenGL. - No effect.
    • More efficient processor core management. Multiple cores will be made use of in loading and creating new rendering assets as well as helping with increased draw distance. - No effect.
    • Will support dedicated and mobile graphics cards, automatically using the dedicated graphics card when possible. - No effect.
    • NXT will have support for 32 and 64 bit Windows, with its installer automatically detecting which version is needed. Initially there will only be support for a 64 bit version for Linux. - No effect.
    • Will be possible to run multiple clients at the same time, but this will affect performance especially on older, single core PCs. - No effect.
    • There will be less loading times and can be expected to not have any loading times when walking/running between areas. - No effect.
    • Players can enable Vsync to lock the FPS to the monitor's refresh rate, however this can be turned off to provide an uncapped FPS. - No effect.


    Now, of course there's definitely a possibility that I could be wrong on some of these, as they are simply educated guesses based on information given and experience with Genesis. But, yes, there will likely be some updates to Genesis for NXT support; however, based on the list above, I don't see them being very significant or cause much delay. Ultimately, I think only time will tell us for sure the true impact of NXT on Genesis, and the botting industry as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    I think you're forgetting that with the way Genesis works, every script a user makes is equivalent to a private bot. On the topic of NXT, it won't delay development. In fact, any updates required for scripts would be as simple as running a new calibration session.
    I'm quite sure Kasi isn't talking about "in game detection" (?) more like the "out of game detection" such as generated mouse events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Simba Noob View Post
    So if I play the game legit on the official client am I botting? Because that is what it will eventually come down to, with concepts like genesis.

    I never said he should use reflection, it was just to illustrate a point. Besides, genesis won't be released before NXT
    No. I'm not talking about how Genesis is. I'm just talking in general. Jagex KNOWS who bots and who doesn't. I'm pretty sure they know from the second it happens. There are much bigger companies that specialize in bot busting, who are pretty good at what they do. They'd read running processes, or check what software you have installed on your system for example / what @Olly; said too; They'd have an idea of what to look for. This shit isn't illegal if they put it in their TOS. The question doesn't come down to whether Jagex knows you're botting or not. It comes down to whether they can do anything about it without hurting their profits. I was just stating even in your scenario, reflection is useless to Genesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    I think you're forgetting that with the way Genesis works, every script a user makes is equivalent to a private bot. On the topic of NXT, it won't delay development. In fact, any updates required for scripts would be as simple as running a new calibration session.
    So when a user makes a script using Genesis, you're saying they won't have any link to Genesis? IE, the script would be standalone, even then, you have to consider all the methods of detection. I'm not talking about customization. I'm talking about the fact that if you have anything to do with Genesis on your system then you could be considered to be botting at some point or another. It might sound like paranoia but its a point to consider seeing as they give you jack-shit for evidence when you do get banned. Logically, Jagex won't have a Generic bot busting algo. If it was me writing a bot buster, i'd write it like an antivirus scanner and just throw a shit tonne of definitions at it.
    Last edited by Kasi; 01-21-2016 at 11:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    No. I'm not talking about how Genesis is. I'm just talking in general.
    Ahh yea, I see what you're saying. Although, if Jagex detects something suspicious on your system they cannot prove with 100% accuracy which account botted what, for how long, and when, meaning they wouldn't have the evidence to ban any account in particular. But yea, I see what you're saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Simba Noob View Post
    Ahh yea, I see what you're saying. Although, if Jagex detects something suspicious on your system they cannot prove with 100% accuracy which account botted what, for how long, and when, meaning they wouldn't have the evidence to ban any account in particular. But yea, I see what you're saying.
    They don't need evidence although it'd be pretty easy to figure out all that info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    So when a user makes a script using Genesis, you're saying they won't have any link to Genesis? IE, the script would be standalone, even then, you have to consider all the methods of detection. I'm not talking about customization. I'm talking about the fact that if you have anything to do with Genesis on your system then you could be considered to be botting at some point or another. It might sound like paranoia but its a point to consider seeing as they give you jack-shit for evidence when you do get banned. Logically, Jagex won't have a Generic bot busting algo. If it was me writing a bot buster, i'd write it like an antivirus scanner and just throw a shit tonne of definitions at it.
    Script presets are made by individuals, and are loaded using the Genesis platform. This would also produce unique memory signatures for every script, and would change as it's updated.

    Obviously there's ways to detect automation, but I think the question is not, "Is it possible to detect?," I think the questions are, "Can it be detected now?" and "Is it realistic or feasible for Jagex to detect it?"

    One of my favorite quotes by Andrew Gower is as follows:

    "We keep developing technologies to combat bots, but it's like an arms race – we stop bots, they improve their macros, we stop them, they improve again. [...]. It could reach a point where macro software becomes undetectable."

    As of now I can only think of two options Jagex has that would disrupt Genesis: detection of hardware vs virtual input, and/or scanning files on individuals' computers.

    Regarding the first one, I'm not sure why they haven't done this yet. They would need to modify their TOS of course, but that would also notify bot makers of the fact. This would lead to time dedicated to getting around such detection, and if a solution was developed, all Jagex's work would be for nothing.

    Scanning files on individual's computers would raise hella red flags in PR for privacy reasons. Such a change in the TOS would be so controversial they would have no choice but to publicly announce such a system. Now, considering RiD is not installed anywhere and is a standalone program, the search would be rather extensive and invasive. I feel that due to these reasons, it wouldn't be a worthwhile option for Jagex.

    Ultimately I feel like option 1 is the most feasible and realistic threat. And how it would be worked around? I haven't the slightest idea, but I suppose we'll get there when we get there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    Script presets are made by individuals, and are loaded using the Genesis platform. This would also produce unique memory signatures for every script, and would change as it's updated.

    Obviously there's ways to detect automation, but I think the question is not, "Is it possible to detect?," I think the questions are, "Can it be detected now?" and "Is it realistic or feasible for Jagex to detect it?"

    One of my favorite quotes by Andrew Gower is as follows:

    "We keep developing technologies to combat bots, but it's like an arms race – we stop bots, they improve their macros, we stop them, they improve again. [...]. It could reach a point where macro software becomes undetectable."

    As of now I can only think of two options Jagex has that would disrupt Genesis: detection of hardware vs virtual input, and/or scanning files on individuals' computers.

    Regarding the first one, I'm not sure why they haven't done this yet. They would need to modify their TOS of course, but that would also notify bot makers of the fact. This would lead to time dedicated to getting around such detection, and if a solution was developed, all Jagex's work would be for nothing.

    Scanning files on individual's computers would raise hella red flags in PR for privacy reasons. Such a change in the TOS would be so controversial they would have no choice but to publicly announce such a system. Now, considering RiD is not installed anywhere and is a standalone program, the search would be rather extensive and invasive. I feel that due to these reasons, it wouldn't be a worthwhile option for Jagex.

    Ultimately I feel like option 1 is the most feasible and realistic threat. And how it would be worked around? I haven't the slightest idea, but I suppose we'll get there when we get there.
    Regardless of whether it's installed, Genesis would need to be running, right? That is something Jagex could detect. Whether it's by process scanning, memory scanning, whatever, there would be ways they can tell that it's running if they chose to look for it. I don't know if it would require a TOS change (I haven't read them, maybe everything needed is already there).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWxi View Post
    Regardless of whether it's installed, Genesis would need to be running, right? That is something Jagex could detect. Whether it's by process scanning, memory scanning, whatever, there would be ways they can tell that it's running if they chose to look for it. I don't know if it would require a TOS change (I haven't read them, maybe everything needed is already there).
    This is basically what i was gonna say. Genesis would have some sort of signature. Therefore it would be detected easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    One of my favorite quotes by Andrew Gower is as follows:

    "We keep developing technologies to combat bots, but it's like an arms race – we stop bots, they improve their macros, we stop them, they improve again. [...]. It could reach a point where macro software becomes undetectable.".
    This was in 2009. Do you not think that technology/detection has improved since then? BS quote by Andrew Gower, i don't mean to compare any of these public figures. Bill Gates said we won't ever need more than 640K? Ken Olsen said there won't ever be a requirement for an individual to have a computer in their home; Now we all have them in our pockets. There's always a possibility for Gower's statement to be true just because of how it's worded. But do you really think Genesis is the point at which it's undetectable? That one man army is pretty out of his depth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    As of now I can only think of two options Jagex has that would disrupt Genesis: detection of hardware vs virtual input, and/or scanning files on individuals' computers.

    Regarding the first one, I'm not sure why they haven't done this yet. They would need to modify their TOS of course, but that would also notify bot makers of the fact. This would lead to time dedicated to getting around such detection, and if a solution was developed, all Jagex's work would be for nothing.

    Scanning files on individual's computers would raise hella red flags in PR for privacy reasons. Such a change in the TOS would be so controversial they would have no choice but to publicly announce such a system. Now, considering RiD is not installed anywhere and is a standalone program, the search would be rather extensive and invasive. I feel that due to these reasons, it wouldn't be a worthwhile option for Jagex.

    Ultimately I feel like option 1 is the most feasible and realistic threat. And how it would be worked around? I haven't the slightest idea, but I suppose we'll get there when we get there.
    Jagex have done this...Detection of hardware / virtual input has never really been a problem. People just haven't implemented the solution. https://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1367319

    Have you ever read the TOS?
    Last edited by Kasi; 01-22-2016 at 06:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWxi View Post
    Regardless of whether it's installed, Genesis would need to be running, right? That is something Jagex could detect. Whether it's by process scanning, memory scanning, whatever, there would be ways they can tell that it's running if they chose to look for it. I don't know if it would require a TOS change (I haven't read them, maybe everything needed is already there).
    Of course process/memory scanning is possible, other games do it. However, the point I'm making is that they don't do it now, and based on their ToS (yes, I've read it), they would have to change it in order to legally allow for such methods. Due PR concerns, Jagex would most likely post publicly about the incorporation of such features. Also, ways around such systems do exist in other games and will continue to be developed as time goes on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    This is basically what i was gonna say. Genesis would have some sort of signature. Therefore it would be detected easier.
    Well, I'm not sure about process scanning, but I know that the memory signature of every Genesis script is different due to the way the scripts are created. I know that Warden from Blizzard doesn't pick it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    This was in 2009. Do you not think that technology/detection has improved since then? BS quote by Andrew Gower, i don't mean to compare any of these public figures. Bill Gates said we won't ever need more than 640K? Ken Olsen said there won't ever be a requirement for an individual to have a computer in their home; Now we all have them in our pockets. There's always a possibility for Gower's statement to be true just because of how it's worded. But do you really think Genesis is the point at which it's undetectable? That one man army is pretty out of his depth.
    I think you've missed my point. My point is that just because Jagex improved their detection system, doesn't mean that bots can't get around it eventually, and vice versa. RiD has never said that anything he makes is permanently undetectable. He's stated that it is at the current time period. Any time Jagex makes a change to their detection systems that may compromise RiD's bots, he adapts and makes changes to cover these new issues. So, I guess my point overall atm is that even if Jagex incorporates some of these new detection methods (or which in this debate I've only seen virtual vs hardware input and memory/process scanning), these options are not impossible to work around. If they were, Jagex would have incorporated them a long time ago, as the technology currently exists to use them. So, I guess my question now is, if workarounds for both of these options were developed and implemented, what else could be used for detection?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    Jagex have done this...Detection of hardware / virtual input has never really been a problem. People just haven't implemented the solution. https://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1367319

    Have you ever read the TOS?
    Yes, Jagex has the ability to check for this but they aren't doing anything with that right now. And even if they did, as you've just demonstrated, a workaround is definitely possible.

    Yes, I have read the ToS, and this is all of the information that I found on it that seemed even somewhat relevant:

    "We use Cookies, collect and store IP-addresses, alphanumeric IDs and other unique identifiers in order to identify specific computers that access the Jagex Products. We identify and store the versions of Java and .NET (if any) on your computer along with your browser and operating system, and details of your device's hardware and software specifications."

    Now, if Jagex were to incorporate any of the detection methods that we have recently discussed, then this section of the ToS would change, as it does not fully encapsulate the necessary actions.

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