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Thread: Wizzup's ego

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    Default Wizzup's ego

    Wizzup's ego gets in the way a lot. According to Wizzup in IRC, C++ is weaker than C; it is evil; it is hard, it is bad. It is worse than Pascal and Go-Lang.

    I disagree with him, he bans me from IRC.

    What I said to him:

    YOU find the language hard because YOU lack the skill in it. Doesn't make the LANGUAGE itself hard or bad or evil.
    He says HARD is objective and not subjective. No it is subjective. We find something hard because we don't know it that well. Simple. We find math or guitar or physics or whatever it is, hard because we don't know it quite well or as well as we would like. Someone skilled in math will not say it is hard. It's a discipline and takes time and effort and practice to learn. Apparently, my guitar analogy went over his head and is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with languages.

    He replies:

    It is bloated.
    No C++ is not bloated unless YOU make it bloated. The same code that is written in C to accomplish what can be done in C++ would be just as bloated and he doesn't understand that. C++ compile pure C code if you wish as well.

    I tell him that a sort function in C++ will out perform a sort function in C quite easily. His response:

    glibC
    Let me prove that wrong right now. For the 1 millionth time.

    Take for example a sort function in C:

    C Code:
    bool IntComparator(void* a, void* b)
    {
        return *((int*)(a)) < *((int*)(b));
    }

    bool CharComparator(void* a, void* b)
    {
        return *((char*)(a)) < *((char*)(a));
    }

    bool FloatComparator(void* a, void* b)
    {
        return *((float*)(a)) < *((float*)(b));
    }

    //function for swapping every single byte of a specified type.
    void ByteSwap(uint8_t* a, uint8_t* b, size_t size_ptr)
    {
        int i;
        uint8_t t = 0;
        for (i = 0; i < size_ptr; ++i)
        {
            t = a[i];
            a[i] = b[i];
            b[i] = t;
        }
    }

    //Sort function taking comparators
    void Sort(uint8_t* list, size_t length, size_t size_ptr, bool (*comparator)(void* a, void* b))
    {
        int size = length * size_ptr;
        size_t i, j;

        for (i = 0; i < size; i += size_ptr)
        {
            for (j = 0; j < size - i - size_ptr; j += size_ptr)
            {
                if (comparator(&list[j + size_ptr], &list[j]))
                {
                    ByteSwap(&list[j + size_ptr], &list[j], size_ptr);
                }
            }
        }
    }

    int main()
    {
    }

    Notice all the comparator functions you have to write and one is required for EVERY single type you want to sort. Each of these if not inlined has an overhead of preserving the stack and dereferencing a bunch of pointers. Not to mention a function call every loop.

    The assembly generated WITH gcc-4.8 -O2 optimisations and -masm=intel (and an empty main):
    ASM Code:
    IntComparator(void*, void*):
        mov eax, DWORD PTR [rsi]
        cmp DWORD PTR [rdi], eax
        setl    al
        ret
    CharComparator(void*, void*):
        xor eax, eax
        ret
    FloatComparator(void*, void*):
        movss   xmm0, DWORD PTR [rsi]
        ucomiss xmm0, DWORD PTR [rdi]
        seta    al
        ret
    ByteSwap(unsigned char*, unsigned char*, unsigned int):
        xor eax, eax
        test    edx, edx
        je  .L4
    .L8:
        movzx   ecx, BYTE PTR [rdi+rax]
        movzx   r8d, BYTE PTR [rsi+rax]
        mov BYTE PTR [rdi+rax], r8b
        mov BYTE PTR [rsi+rax], cl
        add rax, 1
        cmp edx, eax
        ja  .L8
    .L4:
        rep; ret
    Sort(unsigned char*, unsigned int, unsigned int, bool (*)(void*, void*)):
        push    r15
        mov eax, esi
        imul    eax, edx
        push    r14
        mov r14d, edx
        push    r13
        push    r12
        push    rbp
        push    rbx
        sub rsp, 24
        test    eax, eax
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+12], eax
        je  .L10
        sub eax, edx
        mov rbx, rdi
        mov r12, rcx
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+4], eax
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+8], edx
    .L12:
        xor r13d, r13d
    .L18:
        cmp r13d, DWORD PTR [rsp+4]
        jae .L26
    .L17:
        mov r15d, r13d
        add r13d, r14d
        mov ecx, r13d
        add r15, rbx
        lea rbp, [rbx+rcx]
        mov rsi, r15
        mov rdi, rbp
        call    r12
        test    al, al
        je  .L18
        test    r14d, r14d
        je  .L18
        xor eax, eax
    .L16:
        movzx   esi, BYTE PTR [rbp+0+rax]
        movzx   edi, BYTE PTR [r15+rax]
        mov BYTE PTR [rbp+0+rax], dil
        mov BYTE PTR [r15+rax], sil
        add rax, 1
        cmp r14d, eax
        ja  .L16
        cmp r13d, DWORD PTR [rsp+4]
        jb  .L17
    .L26:
        mov edx, DWORD PTR [rsp+8]
        sub DWORD PTR [rsp+4], r14d
        mov eax, edx
        add eax, r14d
        cmp DWORD PTR [rsp+12], edx
        jbe .L10
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+8], eax
        jmp .L12
    .L10:
        add rsp, 24
        pop rbx
        pop rbp
        pop r12
        pop r13
        pop r14
        pop r15
        ret
    main:
        xor eax, eax
        ret

    Now consider the same sort function in C++:
    C++ Code:
    template<typename T, bool low_to_high>
    void Sort(T* x, size_t size)
    {
        for (size_t i = 0;  i < size - 1;  ++i)
        {
            for (size_t j = 0;  j < size - i - 1;  ++j)
            {
                if (low_to_high ? x[j] > x[j + 1] : x[j] < x[j + 1])
                {
                    T temp = x[j];
                    x[j] = x[j + 1];
                    x[j + 1] = temp;
                }
            }
        }
    }

    int main()
    {
    }

    Assembly generated using g++-4.8 -O2 optimisations and -masm=intel (and an empty main):
    ASM Code:
    main:
        xor eax, eax
        ret

    OH? Wth? Unfair you say? Fine.. lets use the function and give C a small advantage (C++ compiler optimises out the unused functions unlike C's):

    C++ Code:
    int main()
    {
      int arr[10] = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10};
      Sort<int, true>(&arr[0], 10);
     
      printf("%d", arr[0]);
    }

    Assembly generated with g++-4.8 -O2 optimisations and -masm=intel:
    ASM Code:
    .LC0:
        .string "%d"
    main:
        sub rsp, 56
        mov r8d, 9
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp], 1
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+4], 2
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+8], 3
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+12], 4
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+16], 5
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+20], 6
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+24], 7
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+28], 8
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+32], 9
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+36], 10
    .L2:
        mov rdx, rsp
        xor eax, eax
        jmp .L6
    .L4:
        add eax, 1
        mov esi, DWORD PTR [rdx]
        mov ecx, eax
        lea rcx, [rsp+rcx*4]
        mov edi, DWORD PTR [rcx]
        cmp esi, edi
        jle .L3
        mov DWORD PTR [rdx], edi
        mov DWORD PTR [rcx], esi
    .L3:
        add rdx, 4
    .L6:
        cmp eax, r8d
        jne .L4
        sub eax, 1
        mov r8d, eax
        jne .L2
        mov edx, DWORD PTR [rsp]
        mov esi, OFFSET FLAT:.LC0
        mov edi, 1
        xor eax, eax
        call    __printf_chk
        xor eax, eax
        add rsp, 56
        ret


    Guess what? The C++ version has no overhead compared to the C version AND it requires no comparator functions. In fact, since the sort function is generated at compile time in C++, that inner branch for tenary operator is optimised out (the operator used for determining whether to sort in ascending or descending order within the if statement). Doing this in C requires that you write a whole other comparator function to sort in ascending and descending order. Again, LESS code, LESS bloat, faster calculations, inlined and its generic. I'd easily rub it in Wizzup's face but I'm not that kind of person. I'll leave the high ego alone.

    Lets take a look at the power of templates.. Something that can NEVER be done in C:

    C++ Code:
    template<std::int64_t number>
    struct is_perfect_square
    {
        private:
            static inline constexpr bool is_perfect(std::size_t sq = 0)
            {
                return (sq * sq == number) || ((sq * sq < number) && is_perfect(sq + 1));
            }

        public:
            enum {value = is_perfect()};
    };

    template<std::int64_t number>
    struct is_perfect_cube
    {
        private:
            static inline constexpr bool is_perfect(std::size_t cb = 0)
            {
                return (cb * cb * cb == number) || ((cb * cb * cb < number) && is_perfect(cb + 1));
            }

        public:
            enum {value = is_perfect()};
    };

    template<std::int64_t number, std::int64_t exp>
    struct is_perfect_n
    {
        private:
            static inline constexpr std::int64_t cpow(std::int64_t base, std::int64_t exponent)
            {
                return exponent ? base * cpow(base, exponent - 1) : 1;
            }

            static inline constexpr bool is_perfect(std::size_t n = 0)
            {
                return (cpow(n, exp) == number) || ((cpow(n, exp) < number) && is_perfect(n + 1));
            }

        public:
            enum {value = is_perfect()};
    };

    template<std::int64_t T>
    struct is_prime
    {
        private:
            static constexpr std::int64_t compute(std::int64_t Num, std::int64_t I = 2)
            {
                return I * I > Num ? true : Num % I ? compute(Num, I + 1) : false;
            }

        public:
            enum {value = compute(T)};
    };

    template<std::int64_t number>
    struct Factorial
    {
        private:
            static constexpr std::int64_t compute(std::int64_t num)
            {
                return num ? num * compute(num - 1) : 1;
            }

        public:
            enum {value = compute(number)};
    };

    template<std::int64_t T, std::int64_t U>
    struct concatenate_integral
    {
        template<std::int64_t Limit, std::int64_t Num = 1, bool Cond = false>
        struct calc_power
        {
            const static std::int64_t value = calc_power<Limit, Num * 0xA, (Num > Limit)>::value;
        };

        template<std::int64_t Limit, std::int64_t Num>
        struct calc_power<Limit, Num, true>
        {
            const static std::int64_t value = Num / 0xA;
        };

        enum {value = T * calc_power<U>::value + U};
    };

    template<std::int64_t T, std::int64_t U>
    struct GCF
    {
        private:
            static constexpr std::int64_t compute(std::int64_t X, std::int64_t Y)
            {
                return Y ? compute(Y, X % Y) : X;
            }

        public:
            enum {value = compute(T, U)};
    };

    template<std::int64_t T, std::int64_t U>
    struct LCM
    {
        enum {value = T * U / GCF<T, U>::value};
    };


    What is that? Oh yeah that's right.. COMPILE-TIME math.. What does this mean? The code above has ZERO overhead. ALL the results can be calculated at COMPILE-TIME. This can NEVER be done in C. This sort of optimisation is what the Eigen Math library is based off of. If done in C, the above will have the RUN-TIME overhead of a function call AND the calculations. Transposing matrices, any sort of intense calculations can have a lot of its overheads removed at compile-time in C++.


    Wizzup seems to disagree. I call it a lack of skill. He takes an offence to anyone calling out his skills. So I said he's emotionally unstabled for taking offence to me calling out his skill and comparing his argument to the Linus Torvald's. I don't care about this alpha male crap. Can keep spewing this crap and myths about any language and how much he knows. Facts live on.

    What makes a language hard?

    Lack of skill and practice and time for practice. Some languages take more TIME to learn than others but does that make another language BAD, evil, hard? No. Certain concepts will take more time to learn because it may not exist in another language or it is just difficult for that specific individual. None of this make the LANGUAGE bad, hard or evil.

    What makes it hard is the lack of effort, practice and ultimately skill in said language. Wizzup does NOT seem to understand this. It is hard and bad and evil because he said so and he knows all. This is the same argument Linus Torvald had. Except he had more valid points than Wizzup.

    He said I'm assaulting him, I'm hurtful, I'm obnoxious, I'm aggressive. No I'm simply stating facts. The LANGUAGE isn't hard.

    If you want to say STL is bloated, that's fine but you don't have to use STL; but you lose out on quite a bit unless you roll your own (which by the way you have to do in C anyway). Anything you can do in C, you can do in C++ and more. C++ isn't just object-oriented, it is a multi-paradigm, procedural, function, object-oriented and generic language. C is just procedural and structured.

    I'm going to say this once. There is a reason games use C++ and not C. Speed of templates, allocators, and aggressive optimisations by the compiler as well as LESS code. Not to mention the time it takes to write said code.

    Now I'm not bashing C because I write C and Assembly all day every day for a living along with Objective-C and Java; I am however saying that it is in no way "SUPERIOR" to any other language out there. Neither is pascal, neither is go-lang.

    If you find any language hard, you don't lack the intelligence, you lack practice and time to learn said language.

    Right now, I don't care if Wizzup takes offence to this or bans me. I'm already banned from IRC. This egotistical, "I know all" attitude is sickening. I might finally understand what some others that left villavu was talking about.

    To say Java is harder than C# is stupid because it isn't. One takes more time and effort than the other but neither is harder than the other. How hard a language is, is simply opinion!

    Ban me from IRC and villavu to show off your ego, I don't care. I don't play RS, I code to help other.
    Last edited by Brandon; 05-25-2014 at 02:24 AM.
    I am Ggzz..
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    Me too




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    Meh. I'm not "mad" at him at all. I'm just hate "alpha male", "I'm better than you", "I know all" attitudes.

    The assembly and everything else above says otherwise. Banning me from IRC was uncalled for just because he didn't like what I said. The assembly is there and it doesn't lie.

    Still. I like all of you guys. I'll just do my thing as usual and simply stay away from him.

    It's okay if you guys cannot contribute. Some scripts would be nice though
    I am Ggzz..
    Hackintosher

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    After reading the first part of this thread (I stopped when the code began) I can see you make a good point of logic Brandon. Keeping in mind I also have no knowledge of either of the two languages but I understand where you're coming from for saying this and I agree with you, it wouldn't be fair to classify a language based on if one only has so much knowledge in it. No disrespect to Wizzup, at all, but if this is really what happened then I do agree with you, Brandon.

    Current projects:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    It's okay if you guys cannot contribute. Some scripts would be nice though
    Hopefully a Jewellery Crafter in the near future. It's very stable and crafts all F2P jewellery, but I'm using this so hopefully that will be ready for the updater soon. The new tesseract plugin is working well

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    I don't think @Wizzup?; will ban you, if he does, his reputation will surely fall, as well as his ego.

    I've known Brandon for a long time and I find it to be pretty unbelievable that the "SRL-Leader" is using such insults at a fellow user (Who might have looked up to you). Brandon is not hurtful, obnoxious or aggressive. Anyone who insults based on opinions towards none-aggressive entities such as a programming language shows one thing; poor attitude.

    Regardless of whatever opinion you have of a language I doubt insults are going to change that. Nor does flexing your power based on your own ego. I'm sorry but you do not ban people based on how big of an ego you have.

    @Brandon; Not really liking this situation but if people don't want to learn, don't teach them / educate them. I also don't think you should let one user's brief problematic attitude push you to leave Villavu.

    TLDR; Insults are bad, abusing power based on ego is bad, debating is good.
    Last edited by Kasi; 05-25-2014 at 02:50 AM.

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    wtf did i just read?

    phaggot programming nerds arguing over which language is better or something i think. who writes ~150 lines of code and a huge wall of text about a language that over 99.99% of the population doesnt care about just so you can prove a point to the .01% who still probably doesnt care about your opinion and is an admin so he can just ban you if you argue with him. Oh c++ is better than java? get banned son GG don't ever talk shyt about java

    +reps to anyone who knows what this even means :

    Code:
    .L8:
        movzx   ecx, BYTE PTR [rdi+rax]
        movzx   r8d, BYTE PTR [rsi+rax]
        mov BYTE PTR [rdi+rax], r8b
        mov BYTE PTR [rsi+rax], cl
        add rax, 1
        cmp edx, eax
        ja  .L8
    Last edited by Nebula; 05-25-2014 at 07:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    wtf did i just read?

    phaggot programming nerds arguing over which language is better or something i think. who writes ~150 lines of code and a huge wall of text about a language that over 99.99% of the population doesnt care about just so you can prove a point to the .01% who still probably doesnt care about your opinion and is an admin so he can just ban you if you argue with him. Oh c++ is better than java? get banned son GG don't ever talk shyt about java

    +reps to anyone who knows what this even means


    You amaze me sometimes. I'm openly straight. Not gay/homosexual thanks. No one ever said anything is better than Java. I said NEITHER is better than the other and NEITHER is bad. Secondly.. 99% of the population what? I think you might want to take a look at google codejam statistics and the facebook hackers cup competitions:

    http://www.go-hero.net/jam/14/languages

    Guess which languages is the most used? But this is NOTA so you can say whatever you like and I don't blame you if you do. Again, no one cares and yes it is to prove a point that the admin has no idea what they are talking about but shoves their ego in the way. But if you don't care, why exactly did you click the thread link? Because curiosity got you and you cared ever so slightly to read it to know that straight nerd programmers are arguing.


    And yes I understand that weird nerdy code called assembly. I am going to +1 you though because I laughed out loud while reading it. Especially the pluses part.
    Last edited by Brandon; 05-25-2014 at 07:15 AM.
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    in my opinion , c++ seems like the clear winner here. it wouldn't make sense for c to be better than c++, how can something double plus be worse than something with no plusses? thats like saying zero is greater than a really big positive number. can you even math/logic/common sense wizup?

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    Wow. Really? *Sigh*. This is such a waste of all our time.

    First of all, here's a log of the entire conversation: http://wizzup.org/ggzz.txt
    Why did you not provide everyone with this? That saves everyone from a lot of
    your slander and intentional misrepresentations / defamations. It's very
    childish to take things out of context, phrase them differently only to
    "win" your case. The truth is that you're in fact hurting everyone by
    providing everyone with false information.


    The discussion very quickly turns into a mostly one sided flame fest, where I
    try to tell ggzz that his flaming doesn't add anything to the discussion and his
    arguments have little relevance. He doesn't like this and continues for the next
    50 minutes that follow.

    I can stand a lot of online abuse, but this was just silly. I'm not going to
    argue on technical grounds - as I also state in the log, because ggzz is acting
    really offensive and presents a one sided view, and then continues to present a
    very narrow part of the argument where he thinks he can "win", thus trying to
    declare the whole argument a "win".

    Truth be told, I really don't care that you think that you're right and than I
    am wrong. I already lost all hope on having a meaningful discussing with you.

    Did you even see how you're starting your post?

    "Wizzup's ego gets in the way a lot".

    What kind of way to have any meaningful discussion is that? You immediately
    enforce your own view on the reader, in a very forceful and offensive way. Force
    may work for you in a narrow part of your life, but it's not going to work here.

    What I care about is pointing out how overly aggressive you really are, trying
    so very hard to pull the entire argument, case, "win", etc in your favour.
    You're not even remotely trying to have a discussion, you're just trying to
    win an argument. After I temporarily removed you from the channel, we have a
    nice discussion with about five or six people about the same topic, with no
    problems.

    Your post on the forums only reinforces my view that you're zealous about this
    and don't stop to listen to others, but continue to push your view and also
    continually keep attacking them. You're reflecting many of the things that
    really concern yourself on me.

    Really, I'm sure quite a few people are shocked by the way you present your
    "case", you continue to rage on, again completely miss the points I made
    previously, and you're very much stuck in your own view and don't even attempt
    to look at what others are saying.

    Take a step back, and have a more unbiased look of the discussion.

    I don't have such a huge ego, I don't have emotional problems, I am not
    emotionally unstable, I can program C++ quite well, I have no problems admitting
    that I am wrong and I am not in denial. To "counter" just a few things you
    accused me of in your rage. I have in fact grown a lot emotionally and
    empathically in the last years. But you are really not the person to tell me who
    I am and what I am like. That's way out of line, hurtful, and in this case, just
    plain wrong.

    I invite everyone to look at the full log and draw their own conclusions if
    they want. I won't be telling you what to think, you can draw your own
    conclusions.

    I gracefully decline to discuss this with you any further.
    The way you discuss is tiresome, painful and non-constructive.

    I try to be nice to as many people as I can, I try to be very helpful to them
    and I've found that your kind of behaviour is terrible for communities in
    general. As for my "ego", from the way you discuss you probably make my ego
    look very tiny... :

    It's okay if you guys cannot contribute.
    I'd easily rub it in Wizzup's face but I'm not that kind of person. I'll leave the high ego alone.
    Last edited by Wizzup?; 05-25-2014 at 11:03 AM.



    The best way to contact me is by email, which you can find on my website: http://wizzup.org
    I also get email notifications of private messages, though.

    Simba (on Twitter | Group on Villavu | Website | Stable/Unstable releases
    Documentation | Source | Simba Bug Tracker on Github and Villavu )


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    Just let him back into the IRC, and never discuss/argue about this in the future. Les' keep it professional now Mates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    I don't think @Wizzup?; will ban you, if he does, his reputation will surely fall, as well as his ego.

    I've known Brandon for a long time and I find it to be pretty unbelievable that the "SRL-Leader" is using such insults at a fellow user (Who might have looked up to you). Brandon is not hurtful, obnoxious or aggressive. Anyone who insults based on opinions towards none-aggressive entities such as a programming language shows one thing; poor attitude.

    Regardless of whatever opinion you have of a language I doubt insults are going to change that. Nor does flexing your power based on your own ego. I'm sorry but you do not ban people based on how big of an ego you have.

    @Brandon; Not really liking this situation but if people don't want to learn, don't teach them / educate them. I also don't think you should let one user's brief problematic attitude push you to leave Villavu.

    TLDR; Insults are bad, abusing power based on ego is bad, debating is good.
    Find the log of the conversation in the previous post, and draw your own
    conclusions. You're drawing your conclusions purely based on a very one
    sided argument presented by Brandon/ggzz. If you want to have a meaningful
    discussion and opinion, I suggest you have a look at both sides. In the
    very final sentence I call him obnoxious, because that is really what
    he was in the last 40+ minutes of the discussion.



    The best way to contact me is by email, which you can find on my website: http://wizzup.org
    I also get email notifications of private messages, though.

    Simba (on Twitter | Group on Villavu | Website | Stable/Unstable releases
    Documentation | Source | Simba Bug Tracker on Github and Villavu )


    My (Blog | Website)

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    Just picking out the highlights:
    Progress Report:
    02:02 < Olly`> JUST SHUT UP AND ADD FindColorsArray(cols, tols: TIntegerArray);
    
    02:05 <@Wizzup> What is the point you are trying to make here?
    02:05 < Olly`> fight
    02:05 <@Wizzup> I just don't get it
    02:05 < ggzz> you're trying to say its a bad langauge.. you just don't know it well
    02:05 <@Dgby714> .k Olly` no
    02:05 -!- Olly` was kicked from #Simba by Sexy [no]
    02:05 < ggzz> simple
    
    02:11 < ggzz> Go lang is useless
    02:11 <@Wizzup> - ggzz, 2014
    
    02:17 < ggzz> C, this, Pascal taht, C++ evil
    02:17 < Olly`> yea fuck linux!
    
    02:43 < ggzz> he's in denial
    02:43 < Olly`> the standoff is real
    02:44 < Olly`> who will win? stay tuned in
    
    02:49 <@Wizzup> This is really pathetic.
    02:49 <@Wizzup> Olly`: Can you start shouting how Simba bugs need fixing intead?
    02:49 <@Wizzup> That's better for all of us, I think
    
    03:01 -!- ggzz was kicked from #Simba by Wizzup [ggzz]
    03:01 < Olly`> lol


    On a more serious note. Both of you guys are impossible to have discussion with. But wizzup, I do think you sometimes get a bit aggresive during these discusions. Oh well, this is useless. Why can't we all have our own preferences. C++ is a great language if you need a lot of power/controll, especially on windows the development is really nice. C and objective C are not used on any of the profesional projects I've worked with so far. Pascal, Go, java, C# etc etc are all great languages if someone wants a program and they want it this month
    Working on: Tithe Farmer

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    Just from reading the code templates in C + + can be broken eyes and brain.-)
    Per aspera ad Astra!
    ----------------------------------------
    Slow and steady wins the race.

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    I'm not going to read the log because I don't really care. My opinion? Everyone should just get over it and move on. There was a disagreement, big deal?
    <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Eminem
    I don't care if you're black, white, straight, bisexual, gay, lesbian, short, tall, fat, skinny, rich or poor. If you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you. Simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I'm not going to read the log because I don't really care. My opinion? Everyone should just get over it and move on. There was a disagreement, big deal?
    My words

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    Thank you, @Wizzup?; for bringing the entire conversation to the topic. I was kind of expecting you to do so as well, so I skipped the entire first post and will first draw my own conclusions from the IRC conversation before reading the opening post.

    A short summary of the whole IRC convo:
    02:14 < ggzz> because you complain all day long "omg.. c++ so hard.. "
    02:14 <@Wizzup> Yes, it's hard. Doesn't mean I cannot handle it
    02:14 < ggzz> if you knew it well, it won't be hard
    02:14 <@Wizzup> You keep making it personal
    Brandon tries unsuccessfully to propose that C++ is not a bad language even though it is overly complex and hard to master, he wants Wizzup? to look at C++ using that proposition and he tries to force Wizzup? to do so using personal attacks. Wizzup?, on the other hand, is giving no flying fucks about getting angry over such a discussion and so he keeps his calm which in turn makes Brandon frustrated.
    Discussion escalates and Brandon misinterprets Wissup?'s calm as him being uninformed about the whole topic of the discussion.

    @Brandon; You need to be more clear when discussing with Wizzup?. Wizzup is a very literal person and you have to be clear at where you stand and what it is you're trying to discuss. If you want (for example) to discuss whenever C++ is a bad language, despite the complexity and how hard it is to master, then just say so. Tell him "Look at C++ without looking at it's complexity and how hard it is to master; is it still an evil language?". I assure you, if you keep your calm and ask him maturely, then you'll most likely receive a calm and mature reply.
    It seems like the question you asked Wizzup? initially was wrong. You asked whether it was a bad language (subjectivity) and assumed the answer to be based on objectivity.

    @Wizzup?; You shouldn't have banned him for such a tiny discussion, but then again, he put himself in that position so I don't blame you.

    And now onto the opening post in this topic: Here we see Brandon objectively show how C++ is good and what great things you can create with it. This doesn't compare to the question asked on IRC, as that was a question of subjectivity.
    Looking at Wizzup?'s post in this thread, he seems to, yet again, be calm and mature about this discussion, but answers the personal attacks on IRC with some personal attacks of his own. The difference between the personal attacks on the IRC and the ones in this thread is that the first one were simply flaming, whereas the response in this thread is merely a counter-attack in order to prevent flaming in the future.


    So, to specify: When discussing, be clear.
    Can we close this thread now?
    Last edited by Zyt3x; 05-25-2014 at 12:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post
    Find the log of the conversation in the previous post, and draw your own
    conclusions. You're drawing your conclusions purely based on a very one
    sided argument presented by Brandon/ggzz. If you want to have a meaningful
    discussion and opinion, I suggest you have a look at both sides. In the
    very final sentence I call him obnoxious, because that is really what
    he was in the last 40+ minutes of the discussion.
    I have just read the entire log. There were errors on both sides, However my original post still stands. No need for insults.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    Looking at Wizzup?'s post in this thread, he seems to, yet again, be calm and mature about this discussion

    I don't call this calm:

    @wizzup> Like, the fucking definition of personal.
    @wizzup> This is really pathetic.
    @wizzup> And see how fucking stupid that is to say
    < ggzz> YOU find it hard. YOU find it bad. YOU find problems with it
    < ggzz> that's fine by me. Spend your time sleeping. YOu haven't brought anything to the table anyway other than opinions on why
    it is bad and bloated.
    @wizzup> You're fucking obnoxious as a person. And you think you're good at discussions. Let me tell you, you fucking suck at
    it. And that is a personal attack, and I'm leaving it at that.
    < ggzz> you're egotistical
    * Wizzup facepalms
    < ggzz> you should do that harder
    -!- ggzz was kicked from #Simba by Wizzup [ggzz]


    Wizzup I didn't purposely leave out the log. I'm not "pro" at IRC or MIRC like you are. It's not like I use IRC every single day all day long. No, I've recently started coming on. Secondly, EVERYTHING I did say that YOU found offensive, I kept in the first post. As far as I could remember. You call me offensive? Take a look in the mirror. Read the conversation again.

    Just like I said in my Original Post: Your argument is exactly like Linus's. YOU lack the skill. You're emotionally unstable.

    There is NOTHING more that I have said to you or attacked you with according to YOUR logs. If calling out your skill hurts your ego, don't argue.

    I've lost many arguments with DGBY. I've argued with Benland100 quite sensibly on IRC and guess who lost? ME! It has NOTHING to do with winning the argument. I've lost every argument I ever had with Benland100. If you think I'm kidding, see the Windows vs. Linux argument and the VIM vs Notepad++ argument and the many others privacy vs spying. Each and every one lost (as if anyone was trying to win).

    You have the logs because you were there. If it was about winning, I wouldn't lose in that case because like you, I'd be in denial and deny ever losing. You know why Benland is good at arguing? Because he has facts. He has logic, he has what you don't have. PROOF. He has skill. To say the language is hard and be so difficult about accepting that you lack is not my problem. I'm stating that you are wrong right now and in my post. I had nothing to hide when I posted this thread.

    I've quoted everything that you called offensive below in red. If you want to talk about keeping it calm and respectful, let's see through the entire conversation who starts cursing at who. I'm sorry but I don't have a filthy mouth.

    Secondly, the first thing you try to do is establish your ego by stating that you teach and have insane experience. Please.. I teach as well. The assembly and links were given to you. Many times in the chat I gave you links. You know what you gave me? NOTHING. Lol.

    Everything in red is what you found offensive. Everything NOT in red is what I said leading up to.
    < ggzz> you're trying to say its a bad langauge.. you just don't know it well
    < ggzz> its the user that is bad
    < ggzz> or developer
    < ggzz> Wizzup.. don't live in the past.. C89. Seriously?
    @wizzup> What's wrong with portability?
    < ggzz> ^THis argument is the same crap Java devs pull
    < ggzz> There is nothing non-portable about C99
    < ggzz> C++ is too complex and has way too many ways to achieve the same thing. Complex for who?
    @wizzup> Everyone who thinks they understand C++ really don't
    < ggzz> It might be MORE clear for YOU wizzup
    < ggzz> doesn't make C++ bad because it isn't clear for YOU

    * Wizzup has been teaching C and other languages to students for years
    @wizzup> but I'm sure you have much more teaching experience
    * ggzz has been teaching Assembly, C and C++ for years

    < ggzz> what's your point

    @wizzup> My point is that C++ is overly complex and sucks donkey balls.
    @wizzup> And you tell me that I don't understand how complex it really is
    < ggzz> and my point is that it is your opinion because you don't understand it

    < ggzz> but you are proving my point.. It isn't a bad language because YOU don't know it
    < ggzz> it is bad because you suck at using it
    < ggzz> because you complain all day long "omg.. c++ so hard.. "

    < ggzz> No. You're sounding like Linus
    < ggzz> it is complexed due to your skill

    < ggzz> yes it is dgby, you are right there. But just because pascal is easier, does that make C++ bad?

    * Wizzup gives up on ggzz - He doesn't listen to what I say and keep repeating personal attacks

    < ggzz> I'm offensive how?
    < ggzz> I simply state that the complexity of the language depends on your skill
    < ggzz> you take offense when anyone calls you out


    < ggzz> You say a language is bad because another is easier
    < ggzz> Your skill IS lacking if you consider it so horrendous and "hard"

    < ggzz> You think I depise linus? No.. I despise his silly argument

    @wizzup> I don't give a flying fuck about Linus.

    < ggzz> If you work on guitar for years, playing it won't be hard
    < ggzz> if you just start, it's hard as hell
    < ggzz> subjective
    < ggzz> Wizzup. Because the language is hard for "many" or "whoever" does NOT mean it is a BAD language'

    @wizzup> The actual 'bad' part of C++ is the bloat of features that don't mix well, the overly complex features that it has, etc.
    < ggzz> Oh please.. bloat?
    @wizzup> yes. bloat.


    < ggzz> lol you're the one that siad C is less bloat
    < ggzz> but can't back it up
    < ggzz> tell me how it is less bloat
    @wizzup> C++ generates more complex code, links in more crap, uses more ram by design
    @wizzup> either you compare/swap pointers with a cmp function, or you generate lots of code


    < ggzz> gotta love all those comparator functions, those beautiful swapping of every single byte
    * Wizzup points ggzz and glibc
    @wizzup> You're jumping around with baseless and meaningless arguments/points that do not relate to the actual discussion
    < ggzz> sure.. no one knows anything to almighty god wizzup


    < ggzz> If you call "Your argument is like Linus'" an attack then you have some serious emotional issues

    @wizzup> I am fine emotionally, thanks, very stable too, I just had a lot of discussions with people and I've identified you as
    overly agressive and as someone who stops thinking when in an argument
    < ggzz> right.. I stop thinking when I tell you your skill in C++ is bad


    < ggzz> very sensitive
    < ggzz> hates when anyone tells you you're bad
    Last edited by Brandon; 05-25-2014 at 04:08 PM.
    I am Ggzz..
    Hackintosher

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    Brandon, I believe what Wizzup found offensive was the tone that seems to be placed behind what you've stated. Whether you meant to be offensive or not it does come off as being so. However, I do acknowledge that this whole situation could be handled better on both sides. It seems to be turning into a flame fest.

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    I read the logs yesterday, and now reading all the new posts, I don't even know what to say. Get a room or get along.
    There used to be something meaningful here.

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    Woo, I was mentioned =)

    Anyways, Don't really have anything to add except that the examples in the first post are skewed.

    Dg's Small Procedures | IRC Quotes
    Thank Wishlah for my nice new avatar!
    Quote Originally Posted by IRC
    [22:12:05] <Dgby714> Im agnostic
    [22:12:36] <Blumblebee> :O ...you can read minds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dgby714 View Post
    Woo, I was mentioned =)

    Anyways, Don't really have anything to add except that the examples in the first post are skewed.

    The code? How so? It is the exact equivalent C code of that of the C++ example. It is the argument we were having in IRC when I gave him the stackoverflow link which was "irrelevant".

    The examples isn't in any way skewed. They are compiled with the same flags and same compiler. Both on the same 64-bit system with the same optimisations. They are equivalent. In fact, the C++ example actually uses the sort and still has less code that the C example which doesn't. You can stick this in any compiler and see for yourself what is generated. The example is to prove that it depends on how you use the language. The language itself isn't bloat in any way. A language is just a tool. It is one of many examples of where C++ is better than C.

    As for the templates, it was done to show the power of them over C. It was done to show that the fallacy of "templates are bloated" is just that; a fallacy. It depends on its usage and the developer. As stated, anything that can be done in C can be done in C++.


    Lets give C an even larger advantage shall we?

    C++ Code:
    int main()
    {
      int arr[] = {1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 2, 1, 8, 9, 10};
      float arr2[] = {1.0f, 2.0f, 3.0f, 4.0f, 5.0f, 2.0f, 1.0f, 9.0f, 10.0f, 2.0f};
      double arr3[] = {1.0d, 2.0d, 3.0d, 4.0d, 5.0d, 2.0d, 1.0d, 9.0d, 10.0d, 11.0f};

      Sort<int, true>(&arr[0], 10);
      Sort<float, true>(&arr2[0], 10);
      Sort<double, true>(&arr3[0], 10);
     
      for (int i = 0; i < 10; ++i)
         printf("%d", arr[i]);

      for (int i = 0; i < 10; ++i)
         printf("%f", arr2[i]);

      for (int i = 0; i < 10; ++i)
         printf("%f", arr3[i]);
    }

    ASM Code:
    .LC8:
        .string "%d"
    main:
        push    rbp
        mov edx, 1
        push    rbx
        sub rsp, 72
        movsd   xmm1, QWORD PTR .LC1[rip]
        lea rbx, [rsp+4]
        lea rbp, [rsp+16]
        movsd   xmm2, QWORD PTR .LC5[rip]
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp], 1
        movsd   xmm3, QWORD PTR .LC6[rip]
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+4], 2
        movsd   xmm4, QWORD PTR .LC7[rip]
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+8], 8
        movsd   QWORD PTR [rsp+32], xmm1
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+12], 7
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+16], 0x3f800000
        movsd   QWORD PTR [rsp+40], xmm2
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+20], 0x40000000
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+24], 0x41000000
        movsd   QWORD PTR [rsp+48], xmm3
        mov DWORD PTR [rsp+28], 0x40e00000
        movsd   QWORD PTR [rsp+56], xmm4
    .L3:
        xor eax, eax
        mov esi, OFFSET FLAT:.LC8
        mov edi, 1
        call    __printf_chk
        cmp rbx, rbp
        je  .L2
        mov edx, DWORD PTR [rbx]
        add rbx, 4
        jmp .L3
    .L2:
        lea rbx, [rsp+20]
        lea rbp, [rsp+32]
        movss   xmm0, DWORD PTR .LC0[rip]
    .L5:
        unpcklps    xmm0, xmm0
        mov esi, OFFSET FLAT:.LC8
        mov edi, 1
        mov eax, 1
        cvtps2pd    xmm0, xmm0
        call    __printf_chk
        cmp rbx, rbp
        je  .L4
        movss   xmm0, DWORD PTR [rbx]
        add rbx, 4
        jmp .L5
    .L4:
        lea rbx, [rsp+40]
        lea rbp, [rsp+64]
        movsd   xmm0, QWORD PTR .LC1[rip]
    .L7:
        mov esi, OFFSET FLAT:.LC8
        mov edi, 1
        mov eax, 1
        call    __printf_chk
        cmp rbx, rbp
        je  .L6
        movsd   xmm0, QWORD PTR [rbx]
        add rbx, 8
        jmp .L7
    .L6:
        add rsp, 72
        xor eax, eax
        pop rbx
        pop rbp
        ret
    .LC0:
        .long   1065353216
    .LC1:
        .long   0
        .long   1072693248
    .LC5:
        .long   0
        .long   1073741824
    .LC6:
        .long   0
        .long   1075838976
    .LC7:
        .long   0
        .long   1075576832

    Know what? C++ assembly is STILL smaller than that of the C example. Dump it yourself if you don't believe me.

    If anything is skewed, point it out.
    Last edited by Brandon; 05-25-2014 at 04:44 PM.
    I am Ggzz..
    Hackintosher

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