Page 16 of 30 FirstFirst ... 6141516171826 ... LastLast
Results 376 to 400 of 746

Thread: The new RiD Genesis. (again)

  1. #376
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Glorious Nippon
    Posts
    1,011
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Quoted
    505 Post(s)

    Default

    I was curious, so this is mining a single inventory of ess.



    Human or robot? Either way, I say it's art.

    e: killed some roaches too



    Jagex will never be able to handle my fabMouse();
    Last edited by Citrus; 12-13-2015 at 04:09 AM.

  2. #377
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by elfyyy View Post
    I'm not sure you actually understand the definition of the word "biometric", as the context you used it in doesn't make sense.. You basically said that humans have a fingerprint behavior style, as biometrics are a method of analyzing/identifying human behavior.. Maybe saying that humans follow a Gaussian type clicking patterns world be a more appropriate term? Also, even though I know the answer before asking, can you show the proof you have?

    Biometric - "the process by which a person's unique physical and other traits are detected and recorded by an electronic device or system as a means of confirming identity"
    Clicking is simply one aspect of biometric analysis. I was simply giving one example. Biometric analysis involves things such as movements, speed, variance, frequency, and other factors that can be measured at run-time. Every human has their own unique style, which is not limited only to clicking.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Simba Noob View Post
    Of course humans playing RS don't click randomly - you must follow some sort of pattern to actually complete whatever task you're currently performing. However, that pattern does have randomness - and that randomness is what's somewhat unique to every player. You can randomize randomness very easily (i.e. random player 'profiles').

    Right now I'm lolling at your other point. If you had proof about botting evidence - mouse movements or otherwise - that would be the biggest RS news since the phat dupe in '03. Trent keep Trentin'
    I think you're mixing up randomness with variability. In statistics, the definition of random is, "of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen." Based on this definition, the biometric behavior of humans is not random. In statistics, the definition of variability is, "The extent to which data points in a statistical distribution or data set diverge from the average or mean value. Variability also refers to the extent to which these data points differ from each other. There are four commonly used measures of variability: range, mean, variance and standard deviation." Whether variability is already in use here is irrelevant, as my main point is the difference, definition, and correct usage of these words.

    Whether anyone here takes my mouse movement statement seriously or not, I really don't care. Believe it or not, again, I don't care. What I know is considered to be sensitive information and revealing details would place my source at risk legally. All I can say is that mouse movement analysis capabilities do exist within Jagex, and that they have a set protocol on when it is appropriate and acceptable to use it. Most bots in-game will never experience this technology, but given that there is no way to eliminate the risk of it being used, the importance of pushing innovation and becoming more advanced than is absolutely necessary in the botting industry cannot be understated.

  3. #378
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,147
    Mentioned
    221 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1068 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Incurable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Clarity
    Brilliant!
    I've always loved that iPhone 4 video, I watch it every time a new iPhone comes out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    Whether anyone here takes my mouse movement statement seriously or not, I really don't care. Believe it or not, again, I don't care. What I know is considered to be sensitive information and revealing details would place my source at risk legally. All I can say is that mouse movement analysis capabilities do exist within Jagex, and that they have a set protocol on when it is appropriate and acceptable to use it. Most bots in-game will never experience this technology, but given that there is no way to eliminate the risk of it being used, the importance of pushing innovation and becoming more advanced than is absolutely necessary in the botting industry cannot be understated.
    I used to be a big proponent of biometrics in my early time here. It sounds great in theory.
    The point here is not whether they track mouse movements, but that the biometric selling point of RiD is dishonest because Jagex can easily detect whether the mouse movements are real, or generated by RiD. You could have the best biometrics in the world (and to be sure, RiD's are very cool), but it wouldn't matter if Jagex really wanted to detect you.

    RiD has still not addressed this detail. If he implements a way to emulate real mouse and keyboard events that are undetectable, combined with biometrics, I will be interested. @Brandon; had a nice post somewhere about detecting fake events.

    Don't worry about your secret source, their tiered detection system has been apparent since day 1 of BotWatch.
    Last edited by Clarity; 12-13-2015 at 09:12 PM.

  4. #379
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarity View Post
    I used to be a big proponent of biometrics in my early time here. It sounds great in theory.
    The point here is not whether they track mouse movements, but that the biometric selling point of RiD is dishonest because Jagex can easily detect whether the mouse movements are real, or generated by RiD. You could have the best biometrics in the world (and to be sure, RiD's are very cool), but it wouldn't matter if Jagex really wanted to detect you.

    RiD has still not addressed this detail. If he implements a way to emulate real mouse and keyboard events that are undetectable, combined with biometrics, I will be interested. @Brandon; had a nice post somewhere about detecting fake events.
    One area I've been very interested in for awhile yet never really found enough satisfying information on the matter is legally detecting the use of the Robot class in Java to control the mouse/keyboard.

  5. #380
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    The Future.
    Posts
    5,600
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1598 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    One area I've been very interested in for awhile yet never really found enough satisfying information on the matter is legally detecting the use of the Robot class in Java to control the mouse/keyboard.

    Your source is feeding you false information. If they can disassemble the client and show me where Jagex is detecting the mouse movements, that'd be great. There's an entire community dedicated to checking the client every update.

    It is legal to detect the Robot class.
    Last edited by Brandon; 12-13-2015 at 03:58 PM.
    I am Ggzz..
    Hackintosher

  6. #381
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    463
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Quoted
    229 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Your source is feeding you false information. If they can disassemble the client and show me where Jagex is detecting the mouse movements, that'd be great. There's an entire community dedicated to checking the client every update.

    It is legal to detect the Robot class.
    I might be able to help with this.

    I've decompiled an 803 version of their client (not completely, but mostly), in class464_sub1 there's a method 10687.
    The client transmits data to a server (jagex servers obviously).

    If you're able check out that method 10687. You'll see packet writing about mouse information.

    As well as Class580_sub1 "mouseevent.getClickCount(), -909947024" it's all over, if you want to add my skype I'll be happy to show more info.

    there's about 100 or so instances where the mouse and keyboard is transmitted through packets.

    You can see a packet is writing the time + mouse (correct me if i'm wrong)

    Last edited by Lucidity; 12-13-2015 at 04:35 PM.
    Tsunami

  7. #382
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,010
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Quoted
    620 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidity View Post
    I might be able to help with this.

    I've decompiled an 803 version of their client (not completely, but mostly), in class464_sub1 there's a method 10687.
    The client transmits data to a server (jagex servers obviously).

    If you're able check out that method 10687. You'll see packet writing about mouse information.

    As well as Class580_sub1 "mouseevent.getClickCount(), -909947024" it's all over, if you want to add my skype I'll be happy to show more info.

    there's about 100 or so instances where the mouse and keyboard is transmitted through packets.

    You can see a packet is writing the time + mouse (correct me if i'm wrong)

    Isn't #803 two years old now?
    #slack4admin2016
    <slacky> I will build a wall
    <slacky> I will ban reflection and OGL hooking until we know what the hell is going on

  8. #383
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    463
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Quoted
    229 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
    Isn't #803 two years old now?
    I believe so but it's still relevant information, it wouldn't be hard to decompile a current version and check the same classes.
    Tsunami

  9. #384
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    It is legal to detect the Robot class.
    That still doesn't answer the "How" aspect of my curiosity.

  10. #385
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    The Future.
    Posts
    5,600
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1598 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    That still doesn't answer the "How" aspect of my curiosity.
    Because your programs are allowed to hook functions. Jagex already has hooks installed every time the client starts. SetWindowsHookEx is being used but the callback is empty.

    It isn't illegal for them to use it. Just like Blizzard, they can add it to their TOS and say if you don't like it, don't play. It's just as legal as you having a bot that bots their game. They have the right to defend said game. I doubt they even have to add it to their TOS. They can already collect mouse data via Java. Hooking their own game is no big feat. It's only a big deal because it's one of the only ways to detect Simba and RID since neither loads the client (without something like SMART). Again, why other hooking your mouse or keyboard when you can just monitor processes like Blizzard does.


    As for the "They send mouse calls to the server".. Of course they do. How else are they supposed to know where you clicked on an item? How are they supposed to know who clicked on what item first? That's the reason for sending the time along with it. However, what they do with this information is only known to them and there's no point speculating. They only send clicks.

    The same way they send what you type to their server, they send your mouse clicks. However, what they do not send, is whether or not the mouse input is virtual or hardware.


    Secondly, no one other than RID uses Robot to click. Everyone else loads the client. If they wanted to detect you, mouse detection, ip detection, all that other crap would be a last resort.


    Powerbot still got us all banned even after they added all the mouse crap. IIRC, there were 250+ pages of bans (10 - 20 bans per page).
    Last edited by Brandon; 12-13-2015 at 10:42 PM.
    I am Ggzz..
    Hackintosher

  11. #386
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,147
    Mentioned
    221 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1068 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    One area I've been very interested in for awhile yet never really found enough satisfying information on the matter is legally detecting the use of the Robot class in Java to control the mouse/keyboard.
    Covered in above posts ^

    But seriously, when I asked about mouse detection in the RiD chatbox three times recently (and staff did see the questions, they were talking around them), I was either ignored or the question was skirted. That suggests that either they don't know the answer or don't care about the reality because it delegitimizes one of the product's main selling points. If they don't know the answer, I hope they look into it at least.

    I'm not attacking RiD's innovation, I love innovation. I just feel that his efforts are critically misplaced - he should be developing indistinguishable hardware input simulation rather than focusing on fancy mouse movements. The fancy mouse movements can come AFTER he creates a solidly undetectable mouse and keyboard setup.

    But being a business and all, I'm not surprised he goes the route that looks the best to his potential customers.

    This conversation also assumes that Jagex is even trying to ban us, which is a whole separate debate...I personally feel they have no business incentive to bother dealing with us* at a serious level. This has a funny effect of making us think we are somehow undetectable, when we really are, with any actual effort.

    *By "us", I mean SRL and RiD, the 1% of botters out there.
    Last edited by Clarity; 12-13-2015 at 11:18 PM.

  12. #387
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitcairn Island
    Posts
    288
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Quoted
    166 Post(s)

    Default

    This is so funny I had to post it. Let me just quote what Brandon said well over a year ago on the first page of this thread:


    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    IIRC, it was stated by one of the guys who came over here that.. and I quote: "You don't need to know programming to use it".. "You won't have to write any code".

    I'd love for that guy to explain this:



    because that right there.. is practically the heart of programming. I mean, if my mom knew logical and bitwise operations, I'd let her write all my code.
    and then I go and look in the RiD chatbox today:


  13. #388
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    463
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Quoted
    229 Post(s)

    Default

    Oh My! ^
    Tsunami

  14. #389
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Because your programs are allowed to hook functions. Jagex already has hooks installed every time the client starts. SetWindowsHookEx is being used but the callback is empty.

    It isn't illegal for them to use it. Just like Blizzard, they can add it to their TOS and say if you don't like it, don't play. It's just as legal as you having a bot that bots their game. They have the right to defend said game. I doubt they even have to add it to their TOS. They can already collect mouse data via Java. Hooking their own game is no big feat. It's only a big deal because it's one of the only ways to detect Simba and RID since neither loads the client (without something like SMART). Again, why other hooking your mouse or keyboard when you can just monitor processes like Blizzard does.


    As for the "They send mouse calls to the server".. Of course they do. How else are they supposed to know where you clicked on an item? How are they supposed to know who clicked on what item first? That's the reason for sending the time along with it. However, what they do with this information is only known to them and there's no point speculating. They only send clicks.

    The same way they send what you type to their server, they send your mouse clicks. However, what they do not send, is whether or not the mouse input is virtual or hardware.


    Secondly, no one other than RID uses Robot to click. Everyone else loads the client. If they wanted to detect you, mouse detection, ip detection, all that other crap would be a last resort.


    Powerbot still got us all banned even after they added all the mouse crap. IIRC, there were 250+ pages of bans (10 - 20 bans per page).

    So I guess my question is how would virtual vs. hardware mouse/keyboard detection be done?

    In regard to monitoring processes, and keep in mind I haven't looked too far into this topic, and it's been a long while since I've discussed it, but to my knowledge javaw.exe processes are fairly common, even outside of botting. Also, due to the way that Genesis works, the memory signature of each user would be different, since every user makes and runs their own bot and develops their own calibration session. I vaguely remember this topic from when someone was discussing using Genesis on WoW, and their worry in regard to WoW's process monitoring system. I believe that the ultimate verdict was that Blizzard's Warden wouldn't be an issue for something like Genesis. Now again, it's been ages since I've delved into this topic so forgive me if my verbage is off or if there are inaccuracies in my statements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clarity View Post
    Covered in above posts ^

    But seriously, when I asked about mouse detection in the RiD chatbox three times recently (and staff did see the questions, they were talking around them), I was either ignored or the question was skirted. That suggests that either they don't know the answer or don't care about the reality because it delegitimizes one of the product's main selling points. If they don't know the answer, I hope they look into it at least.

    I'm not attacking RiD's innovation, I love innovation. I just feel that his efforts are critically misplaced - he should be developing indistinguishable hardware input simulation rather than focusing on fancy mouse movements. The fancy mouse movements can come AFTER he creates a solidly undetectable mouse and keyboard setup.

    But being a business and all, I'm not surprised he goes the route that looks the best to his potential customers.

    This conversation also assumes that Jagex is even trying to ban us, which is a whole separate debate...I personally feel they have no business incentive to bother dealing with us* at a serious level. This has a funny effect of making us think we are somehow undetectable, when we really are, with any actual effort.

    *By "us", I mean SRL and RiD, the 1% of botters out there.
    Well to be honest most RiD users don't really understand much about the technical side of things, and the staff are not chosen based on their technical knowledge, but on their helpfulness and their community management skills. This is because RiD is the only developer so there's not much of a need or requirement for staff who are heavily knowledgeable in Computer Science (altho a few of them recently entered uni for this kind of thing).

    Ultimately, I'd say that RiD has his own priorities, as well as a view of the big picture which most people never see, and regardless of which is truly the best order of priorities, there's not much anyone can do to sway him. I could be wrong, but I think a big reason for him avoiding the detection of virtual vs hardware input is simply because he views other areas to be more important for his time and effort, especially given that Jagex has never done anything in the area of detecting virtual vs hardware input to ban users. Now, if Jagex decided to do so, I'm confident that RiD would turn the bots off, drop everything on his plate and focus on a solution for such a problem. I think his priorities are just elsewhere right now, and honestly, having known him closer than most over the years, it's really difficult to know what's going on in his head and what direction he's trying to take his bots.

  15. #390
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,112
    Mentioned
    71 Post(s)
    Quoted
    580 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    especially given that Jagex has never done anything in the area of detecting virtual vs hardware input to ban users.
    What? They don't do this?

  16. #391
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
    What? They don't do this?
    Not to my knowledge. If they did then just about every bot would have exorbitant amounts of bans. If they do, I'm not aware of it.

  17. #392
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    2,752
    Mentioned
    193 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1468 Post(s)

    Default

    Can't we close this thread?
    All I see here is RiD fanboys praising Genesis...
    @BraK; @Justin; @Daniel;
    Last edited by Hoodz; 12-14-2015 at 02:33 PM.

  18. #393
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    203
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Quoted
    100 Post(s)

    Default

    Sorry @Clarity; - if I could answer that question regarding mouse and keyboard input, I would. However I think only RiD himself has the knowledge on our forums to answer that.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoodz View Post
    Can't we close this thread?
    All I see here is RiD fanboys praising Genesis...
    I think that's a strange thing to say in an RiD thread, specifically about Genesis. Besides, I don't really see a lot of fanboys praising it. A lot of relevant discussion however. *shrugs*

  19. #394
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    The Future.
    Posts
    5,600
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1598 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Simba Noob View Post
    This is so funny I had to post it. Let me just quote what Brandon said well over a year ago on the first page of this thread:

    and then I go and look in the RiD chatbox today

    LOL! Relevant:

    By the time he learns what boolean logic is and all the programming knowledge required, he'd be writing his own scripts.


    @Trent!; You don't need to read JVM signatures to detect a Java bot that does NOT load the client (external client like Simba). Just use Java's JNI api and attach to the JVM.. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2...dy-running-jvm with that, you can do whatever you want. Find class files known to that bot (which certainly does NOT change between users), etc..

    This is Windows. Anything is possible because the security is absolute garbage compared to Linux and WinAPI allows full access to pretty much everything (SetWindowsHookEx and the likes wrecks everything). The only problem for Jagex is the law. But I'm sure they can work around it just like Powerbot and many bot makers work around it.


    Anyway, let's keep the thread on topic. Leave the detection stuff and theories to another thread.
    Last edited by Brandon; 12-14-2015 at 02:35 PM.
    I am Ggzz..
    Hackintosher

  20. #395
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    2,752
    Mentioned
    193 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1468 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aufi View Post
    Besides, I don't really see a lot of fanboys praising it. A lot of relevant discussion however. *shrugs*
    I have to disagree with that, most of the "information" given is not even valid since only RiD know these stuff.

  21. #396
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    995
    Mentioned
    145 Post(s)
    Quoted
    596 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hoodz View Post
    Can't we close this thread?
    All I see here is RiD fanboys praising Genesis...
    ...
    In that case you are selectively reading certain posts, ignoring other posts. Leave the thread open. Closing it for any such reasons would be ridiculous.
    If you don't like the discussion, and talking going on here, then do yourself a favor: ignore this thread.
    Last edited by slacky; 12-14-2015 at 03:49 PM.
    !No priv. messages please

  22. #397
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    2 Post(s)

    Default

    Why close this thread? I found this really interesting and informative to read. previously i didnt even know that theres a difference between hardware and digital clicks. Please keep the gems coming ;d

  23. #398
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    I have a very unique playing style for certain skills, and once Genesis supports movement I will record a video of my bot running. I feel like the results will be very distinct compared to how typical bots behave and will be a good example of the biometric aspect of things.

  24. #399
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    East Coast, USA
    Posts
    4,231
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1869 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hoodz View Post
    All I see here is RiD fanboys praising Genesis...
    As they are completely within their rights to do (if they're doing so at all, I see both sides of the spectrum personally). This is a public forum.

    I'm just exticed to finally have confirmation that Genesis exists at all, is in active development, and is making progress.
    Last edited by KeepBotting; 12-14-2015 at 05:15 PM.
    GitLab projects | Simba 1.4 | Find me on IRC or Discord | ScapeRune scripts | Come play bot ScapeRune!

    <BenLand100> we're just in the transitional phase where society reclassifies guns as Badâ„¢ before everyone gets laser pistols

  25. #400
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    5,762
    Mentioned
    136 Post(s)
    Quoted
    2739 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hoodz View Post
    Can't we close this thread?
    All I see here is RiD fanboys praising Genesis...
    @BraK; @Justin; @Daniel;
    to be fair some of us are bashing genesis except constructive unlike the last thread

Page 16 of 30 FirstFirst ... 6141516171826 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •