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<slacky> I will build a wall
<slacky> I will ban reflection and OGL hooking until we know what the hell is going on
I just took a quick glance at their available bots, and I have to say....
what is the difference between them and a mouse-recorder other than the fact that they have amazing mouse randoms.
with the scripts they have available / possible. there isnt even a need to go 250% with mouse-randoms.
I was hoping to see some more ' advanced ' scripts that do more than just fletch an item or clean herbs :|
( actually all the scripts look like they involve basic mouse-movements )
* NOTE *
i have no dived deep into the forum to get a full understanding. this is just my opinion from skimming the surface of RiD.
Attempting to bring things back on topic:
They do not get paid nowadays, iirc they were only paid to do support tickets back when there were a lot more members. As we know, RiD is more of a behind-the-scenes guy and so he says something, and the staff reciprocate it. The platform has always been pretty black boxed, in terms of information about it, since 2007, and ultimately people still use it. Some people only care about outcomes, not what lead to them *shrug*
Now, I'm not saying myself or others wouldn't want to know how things work, because we do, but ultimately, some people want a product that "just works."
Here is a list of all the bots RiD had prior to Genesis development (as one developer):
Magic Training Arena
Blacksmith (also supported superheat + smithing simultaneously)
Pest Control
Powerminer (with mousekey dropping)
Ivy Cutter
Cooking
Agility
Thieving (Including blackjacking and Monkey Knife Fighters)
Crafting
Construction
Fishing (including high alchemy + fishing simultaneously)
Firemaking
RiDiverse (Can train crafting, fletching, herblore, cooking, magic)
Genesis is meant to replace all of these and more.
If something just works, why change it? What is wrong with the current version of RiD that only Genesis will solve? I don't remember hearing about RiD users being banned, or being broken in any way. Seems like this Genesis project is way too much and may not ever be finished. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, there's a lot to read and I'm just trying to figure out the point of Genesis.
Away for awhile, life is keeping me busy. | Want to get my attention in a thread? @Kyle Undefined; me.
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There's a few main reasons why RiD decided to trash what was, and upgrade to Genesis:
-Rather than need to manage 17+ different bots every time graphics are changed, Genesis allows users to update their bots easily whenever things change, meaning RiD only has to develop the platform, not micromanage each bot.
-There were some users banned using the Divination open beta. The reasons for this were believed to have been avoidable under a closed beta; however, there were some other bits of information about this incident that are kept under lock and key (some of which I helped uncover) that made RiD want to upgrade his systems.
-RiD understands that RS is slowly dying, and wants to offer a system that allows users to bot both RS and other games, without him having to micromanage everything.
-RiD wanted users to have added customization and functionality along with the ability to fix their own run-time errors.
-In regard to biometrics, RiD wanted to be ahead of the game, in the event that Jagex started implementing advanced behavior analysis. This point is less pertinent than the others, but he'd rather kill multiple birds with one stone if he can.
I'm sure there are other reasons I'm forgetting about, but those are the main ones that I can think of. To address your concern of the project never being finished, despite the hiccups we've had in beta thus far, RiD has been updating things pretty frequently and improving functionality at a noticeable rate. Some users are already botting several hours at a time, which for something that has yet to hit v0.20, is quite promising to the expectation that things will meet expected standards. The platform itself will of course always undergo updates and receive additional features and functionality, but I'm confident based on what I've seen and experienced, that it will definitely meet release standards.
He should only have to update one thing if "the graphics change", unless he doesn't use his own private API, though he might have to re-scan world objects, but again if he's smart he would've developed a tool for himself to use that'd make it simple. On top of that it's rare that major changes occur that'd require a weeks worth of RiD's time. No to mention like 80% of the current userbase at RiD would rather bot OSRS over RS3, and the private bot VIP's had access to was still running perfectly fine after several years behind doors, that was until the logout button on OSRS was moved.
Something tells me you're just attempting to boaster, like you usually do. Most of the bans were all temp or simple level/bank rollbacks, to me it sounded like Jagex gambled and managed to catch some RiD users, but at the same time they weren't even sure if the players they did catch were even botting. Why would they be so lenient?
I say this all the time as well, good biometrics can keep you ahead of the game, but using mouse movement analysis isn't viable. It takes a lot of server-resources to do so, and you're so much better off simply analyzing if the player is using a simulated mouse, or going as far as scanning the current running programs on the computer itself. It's easier, and cheaper. As much as I bother Clarity about his biometrics include, there's barely any reason to use biometrics anymore, but to capitalize on Biometrics, to me, is stupid and a waste of time. It's something nice to have, but it doesn't make much of a difference.
RuneScape probably won't die for another few years, in fact it might actually be a long-ways away due to goldfarmers/the RWT market. I'd rather Genesis come out in 5 years while we can still use OSRS bots, and using "It'd take time away from RiD working on Genesis" really isn't a valid excuse, many bots were working perfectly fine and would only require attention if something breaks, and I can only think of 5 updates at most that would've broken bots, but it still should have only taken several days to fix at most, that is if you actually know what you're doing.
Yeah.. from that list you just posted everything is basic color find + mousing... not too convinced about the hype :|
I don't think it'd take much to do mouse movement analysis. It wouldn't be done server sided anyway. It'd/s be/ing done client-sided.
@Trent!; Sounds like a lot of you guys are blinded by wanting something that 'just works'. Not really considering what is feasible and what isn't.
It's not as simple as just updating graphics for each bot (especially accounting for the fact that there's a large number of locations necessary for that), but with small changes, certain bits of functionality can sometimes be compromised and require further time and effort to diagnose. Updating for graphics is just the first step. Sure, some of these changes may be small, but when you have 17 products, and more being developed, it just makes sense to build a system that doesn't need micromanaging. To quote several CEOs of various tech companies, "If you can allow a user to solve their own problem, do it."
First of all, I'm not boasting, at all, actually. Remember that your pessimistic attitude is one of the main reasons so many people don't like you over at RiD. Regardless of that, I didn't uncover the information that RiD found useful, I was merely a middle man, connecting RiD to the source of the information, after reviewing said information. One thing you're going to have to accept, is that there's a lot of things that go down behind the scenes that no one sees or hears about except RiD and his staff. Things of which no one would believe unless they saw the physical proof. I know because I have seen some of what's in there, and for as low as my position was, and as long ago as I was in there, I can guarantee there are more goodies that even I did not have the clearance to access. This sort of thing is not specific to RiD's site, as I can guarantee that some of the other major sites also have their own fair share of secrets. That's a natural fact of almost any industry.
Second of all, my statement was more of the big picture. The Divination beta was merely one example, and what was uncovered was only partially related to this incident.
If you don't want to believe me on this, then don't? Your choice to believe it doesn't affect me so I don't care what you choose to do with this information.
As Kasi said, mouse movement analysis isn't as resource heavy as you seem to think. Programs already exist that record movements, and they're not that resource intensive. In addition, it would be pointless to analyze everyone's movements at the same time. What would be more realistic, is having movement analytics placed somewhere in the tiered detection system, only using them when appropriate. Don't forget that if you check Jagex's hiring habits over the last couple years, they've hired on mass quantities of data analysts and contracted with many specialists in this area. They've also stated that a big reason for this move was in the effort to fight bots. The talent and technological capabilities are there, it's just a matter of when they decide to implement it on a large scale.
While we know that scanning programs or checking for a simulated mouse would be a good idea for Jagex to do, ultimately there's legalities they have to worry about and even then, they simply haven't chosen to do that just yet, and even if they did, as has been discussed before, working around this would be RiD's #1 priority if and when this issue should appear.
While you may not believe RS is dying, the statistics show otherwise:
Global interest in RuneScape is at an all time low, and doesn't even seem to be spiking at all like years previous. The game might continue, but interest is dying out.
As someone who has seen RiD produce new bots from behind the scenes, from the amount of time I've seen it take him to produce just one bot while also managing the others, Genesis development would have taken 3-4 years easily to reach where it has now. So much changes in a year, let alone 4. Even then, all those updates and time and effort would literally be wasted because all of that code would be scrapped with the release of Genesis. While yes, his users suffered by not having bots for 2 years, sometimes a company isn't only about the users. A company must think about the best course of action for the company's well-being and future.
If you research the most important things for the success of a company, according to thousands of CEOs in the world, you'll find that Innovation is the dominant choice. This is exactly why it's important to continue to make changes, even if something is working. I've spent quite some time reading case studies and researching companies on that topic, and so many have gone bankrupt under the belief that they didn't need to innovate.
Could you elaborate on your last sentence? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm curious.
I'm pretty sure Brandon talked about it a bit before in another Thread, Clarity has mentioned it multiple times on Skype. The tl;dr of it I believe was that it wasn't worth the amount of resources it'd take to do so in mass. It's a matter of taking in all that mouse data then processing it.
That contradicts what you've said about having biometrics, if RiD was trying to stay ahead of the game, he would have taken care of this issue. Here you're saying only when it becomes a problem he'll take care of it.
Must it? That seems kind of contradictory to me, what with RiD spending hundreds of man-hours developing a project targeted at a dying game with an ever-shrinking community.
Especially since he plans to monetize this product and build a company around it, doesn't this seem like a poor end-game goal for a company to have?
I mean, Glider made millions. And WoW is still around, and remains as popular as ever.
Last edited by KeepBotting; 12-21-2015 at 06:38 PM.
GitLab projects | Simba 1.4 | Find me on IRC or Discord | ScapeRune scripts | Come play bot ScapeRune!
<BenLand100> we're just in the transitional phase where society reclassifies guns as Badâ„¢ before everyone gets laser pistols
actually, wow follows the same pattern as rs..
https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=%2Fm%2F021dvx
https://www.google.com/trends/explor...=Etc%2FGMT%2B5
kind of? WoW's trend seems far less severe.
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<BenLand100> we're just in the transitional phase where society reclassifies guns as Badâ„¢ before everyone gets laser pistols
I was referring to RiD wanting to stay ahead of the game in terms of movements. Jagex has been shown to analyze clicks and has the capabilities of going further with that. Jagex has never done anything with virtual vs. hardware and scanning programs. Therefore, RiD views the movements aspect to be of higher priority. Also, in order for Jagex to legally do the virtual vs. hardware and/or scanning options, they would need to revise their Terms of Service, which RiD does keep track of. The industry as a whole would see the ToS updated before they would be allowed to use those alternative options. And if it involves scanning processes/programs, they would likely make a public announcement about it, otherwise it would be a huge PR no-no. Ultimately, it would be a massive amount of wasted effort making it pass as hardware if Jagex never ends up taking that route for detection, and if they did, as I just mentioned, there would be a heads up.
You misunderstand. I specifically mentioned the dying trend of RS as an example for why RiD is designing Genesis to work on MORE than just RS. It will support other games down the line, so it is a route out of the dying RS industry. Taking these 2 years to develop it will, in the long run, allow the site to grow and expand beyond RS.
Glider was also sued by Blizzard, and Blizzard is suing other companies as we speak. WoW also has a competitive advantage over RS, and Genesis will eventually work on WoW as well.
Jagex is a profit maximising company. They will develop the game with the mindset of acquiring new customers and improving the value to existing customers. We can't predict the future and trends only tell us what could happen, not what actually happens in the future. A good business leader will create a product that is aligned with the goals of the company. I think we have to try and understand what RID's goals are, they might only want to make $1K per week which seems feasible. Need to get rid of this everyone needs to make a million dollars a year or else they are a failure mentality.
Came here for the banter, ended up getting a bunch of irrelevant quotes from a bunch of irrelevant CEOs.
Some of the features aren't feasible. People who don't have knowledge think they are.
Sounds pretty illogical. Doing work on a server when you can easily do it on a client. I'm not disagreeing with mouse movement analysis not being viable; it's not viable. Checking if its virtual input or not is pretty easy. Can be done with a couple lines of code. I'm just disagreeing with the fact that you think they'd do the analysis on servers - I don't know for sure if Jagex do this but it's pretty illogical from my perspective. Not to mention a massive waste of bandwidth.
feasible - possible and practical to do easily or conveniently.
Just because you don't have the knowledge to do it doesn't mean it isn't possible and practical to do easily or conveniently.
Can't do shit easily or conveniently if you don't have the knowledge. Either way i think you misunderstood my statement. Intelligent people would know if something isn't feasible. Here's a visual example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDD03yeLnU
In the video some bitch mumbles about a GUI interface. We react because we have knowledge. In the same way, this can be applied to Genesis. People who have knowledge into the area know that a certain feature or function isn't possible and practical to do easily or conveniently, so they choose to make an educated decision on how much they disregard Genesis. The other people just believe everything being said - They don't know any different. This is my problem with it. The spec of Genesis can be fabricated so much so that it makes it even more implausible for the conventional uneducated non-programmer botter who just wants to get 99 slayer and make bank to actually figure out what features and functionality Genesis offers you over other bots.
I almost completely agree with this sentiment.
Unless Genesis evolves into some miracle AI monster that not even the best doctorate students at Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, etc... can/will produce, it's just honestly ludicrous to throw years away for minor (if at all useful) improvements. It likely also makes zero business sense (For 3 years at $5/month, not sure how much it costed I hope this is a good estimate, it'd be around $200 per user and I'm almost certain you'd have many times more users than unlimited buyers and the like, probably 10-20x more if not far more than that).
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