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  1. #26
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    The lack of activity in this forum is upsetting - third thread in the listing, yet 3 months have passed since a post!

    As others have mentioned, Java is an excellent place to start. The language is modern and widely adopted. The Java documentation is extremely verbose and helpful, as well is the number of tutorials written on the subject. There is then the additional benefit of Java and its analogues being extremely relevant in industry (object-oriented languages in general, really).

    My advice would be to not spread yourself thin - focus on not just learning, but truly understanding a single language ("perfect" or "master" it, if you will). Make it your daily driver. When you have the time, program solutions to problems you face even if only to gain experience. Once you've come to a solid understanding of how a single language truly functions, it becomes very easy to move to different languages. In this example, there are those that are linguistically similar to Java, and those are then easy to transition into. But, even those languages that are dissimilar to Java will become easier to adopt once you accept that all programming languages (even those that aren't object-oriented imperative types) have inherently similar roots. Think of it as mastering a new thought paradigm, rather than a programming language.

    Truly mastering Java will put a number of languages under your belt, even if you don't immediately realize it. Some languages have their own unique features, but that's just icing on the cake. The only real difference is syntax. It might not hit you until you're faced with working with a code base written in a language you've never heard of, but it will hit you at some point if you go into the industry.
    /

  2. #27
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    Just another link some may use -

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/a0ths75jmz...ition.Jun.2013[A4].pdf?dl=0

    <------------------>



  3. #28
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    You meantioned app development.

    In such a case, your options are;

    C# - Windows Phone Development (wouldn't recommend specializing in this, but its good to know).
    Objective C / Swift - iOS Development (take your pick, Swift is newer, but I have always preferred Objective-C)
    Java - Android (Not really much to say here. Its java).

    Unless you intend to write hybrid-apps, in which case you'll need HTML/JavaScript/CSS. (I would not recommend it, the App Store for example is very unlikely to accept hybrid apps now)

    Now whoever said Java is a corporate staple (I'm too lazy to go back and look) is sourly mistaken. Java, if not for android or an embedded technology, is near dead-content. If you are looking for something outside of app development I'd go with C++ to be honest. C# has made quite the rise over the years in enterprise level software solutions, so there is always that option, but C++ is and always has been the staple programming language.

    I'm going to go against every single person in here going on about Python or ROR or whatever else. Those are great hobbyist languages, and certainly useful to know for certain projects. I use python all the time just to make certain tasks in my life easier. But OP specifically said to open doors to a potential career, or even app development. Python, ROR and other similar solutions will not do either of those things, except for maybe a lucky few.

    So, there's my 2cents OP. When I was in your shoes, the first "major" language I learned Java. I haven't really used it since except for Android development. I use C# and C++ daily in my career.


    Your biggest hurdle is not going to be learning a new language, you will realize very soon that it's a whole methodology (OOP) that you will need to learn. Languages like Java & C# are forced OOP - so you will pick it up quite quickly. C++ does not force you to use the OOP methodology, though it is usually encouraged.

  4. #29
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    For app development? Learn JavaScript, and learn React Native. Then learn Swift and Java on top of that when React Native can't do what you want to do (or just stick with Java if you don't have a Mac to do iOS development on).

    For game development? This'll be a tough one, because a lot more than programming goes into making a game, but just learn C# and Unity3D - use the free assets available. In fact, you could even use JavaScript with it if you wanted to (from before). If you want something more custom, learn C++, and then DirectX 9 (pretty easy).

    If you want to write web apps, learn Python. The hip new language these days is Go, but Python is more than fine. If you're still in school, participate in the yearly Python Challenge for schools (held across Australia, run by the University of Sydney).

    If you want to setup websites for people and go into that area, learn WordPress and basic HTML/CSS skills and then maybe some PHP.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    For app development? Learn JavaScript, and learn React Native. Then learn Swift and Java on top of that when React Native can't do what you want to do (or just stick with Java if you don't have a Mac to do iOS development on).

    For game development? This'll be a tough one, because a lot more than programming goes into making a game, but just learn C# and Unity3D - use the free assets available. In fact, you could even use JavaScript with it if you wanted to (from before). If you want something more custom, learn C++, and then DirectX 9 (pretty easy).

    If you want to write web apps, learn Python. The hip new language these days is Go, but Python is more than fine. If you're still in school, participate in the yearly Python Challenge for schools (held across Australia, run by the University of Sydney).

    If you want to setup websites for people and go into that area, learn WordPress and basic HTML/CSS skills and then maybe some PHP.
    I disagree with almost every point you make here.

    1) React/Cordova/PhoneGap projects are no longer welcome on most App Store ecosystems. You also sacrifice any chance of your app being promoted in anyway. Hybrid apps now go against Apple's Human Interface Guidelines which also means goodbye App Store.

    2) He said he wants to start a career, not make a game at home. Unity is the most saturated market in game development. Thousands of Unity developers every year graduate unable to find work because they are only proficient in something that any joe-shmoe can learn at home. Not to mention, the jobs already are limited in Unity development. Learning Unity for game development is the easiest way to ensure your career does not start the way you want it to.

    3) DirectX9? For realsies? DirectX12 is out now dude. Same thing with WordPress. Really? Its 2017.

    I don't mean to sound like a dick, but do you ave any actual industry/professional experience in these specific sectors? I would think trying to give someone advice on how to start their career of all things would warrant a bit more care in providing accurate information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the bank View Post
    You meantioned app development.

    In such a case, your options are;

    C# - Windows Phone Development (wouldn't recommend specializing in this, but its good to know).
    Objective C / Swift - iOS Development (take your pick, Swift is newer, but I have always preferred Objective-C)
    Java - Android (Not really much to say here. Its java).

    Unless you intend to write hybrid-apps, in which case you'll need HTML/JavaScript/CSS. (I would not recommend it, the App Store for example is very unlikely to accept hybrid apps now)

    Now whoever said Java is a corporate staple (I'm too lazy to go back and look) is sourly mistaken. Java, if not for android or an embedded technology, is near dead-content. If you are looking for something outside of app development I'd go with C++ to be honest. C# has made quite the rise over the years in enterprise level software solutions, so there is always that option, but C++ is and always has been the staple programming language.

    I'm going to go against every single person in here going on about Python or ROR or whatever else. Those are great hobbyist languages, and certainly useful to know for certain projects. I use python all the time just to make certain tasks in my life easier. But OP specifically said to open doors to a potential career, or even app development. Python, ROR and other similar solutions will not do either of those things, except for maybe a lucky few.

    So, there's my 2cents OP. When I was in your shoes, the first "major" language I learned Java. I haven't really used it since except for Android development. I use C# and C++ daily in my career.


    Your biggest hurdle is not going to be learning a new language, you will realize very soon that it's a whole methodology (OOP) that you will need to learn. Languages like Java & C# are forced OOP - so you will pick it up quite quickly. C++ does not force you to use the OOP methodology, though it is usually encouraged.
    Umm.....

    First java is not "dead-content". Take your hipster fake facts elsewhere: http://www.codingdojo.com/blog/9-mos...uages-of-2016/

    Also, if you look at that data, python is requested more than c++.

    Stop spouting anecdotes as facts.

    Edit: Realized the tone of this response was quite belligerent. Please don't get offended
    Last edited by tls; 05-08-2017 at 06:47 PM.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tls View Post
    First java is not "dead-content". Take your hipster fake facts elsewhere
    I never said it was dead content. I said that, besides Android development & embedded systems, it is near dead. The other side of Java was web development, and can we at least admit that side of it died? Atleast the front-end concept of a Java applet? If jobs are not for web, and they're not for desktop solutions, then I think its safe to assume the massive demand is due to Android development. Considering mobile is exploding. After being blacklisted by browsers without Android it would be dead. In the programming sense of course. Ie; flash is dead.

    I'd love to see some data comparing their respective positions, pay-grades, and type of employment (fulltime/contract) for those open positions instead of some abstract "number of jobs" chart.

    I'm not offended. Conversations like this spark good conversation.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by the bank View Post
    I never said it was dead content. I said that, besides Android development & embedded systems, it is near dead. The other side of Java was web development, and can we at least admit that side of it died? Atleast the front-end concept of a Java applet? If jobs are not for web, and they're not for desktop solutions, then I think its safe to assume the massive demand is due to Android development. Considering mobile is exploding. After being blacklisted by browsers without Android it would be dead. In the programming sense of course. Ie; flash is dead.

    I'd love to see some data comparing their respective positions, pay-grades, and type of employment (fulltime/contract) for those open positions instead of some abstract "number of jobs" chart.

    I'm not offended. Conversations like this spark good conversation.
    Most Java I have seen is actually in the backend. Several of my company's database/microservices that are dependent on predictable high performance(vm gc pauses aside) are written in Java. Golang is the only language I've seen that competes with it for a high performance and ease of use...but thats all anecdotal as well.
    One indicator of language usage I consider important, is how many managed cloud services(like aws lambda) target a particular language. Java is still usually part of the first supported. It is very pervasive in big companies like Google and Amazon.
    *It's worth noting that two other languages that get first class support in cloud services are Python and JavaScript(with node.js).
    Obv Microsoft based companies are pretty stuck in .net languages(c#, c++, etc) which is why you have that view(I'm speculating).

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tls View Post
    Obv Microsoft based companies are pretty stuck in .net languages(c#, c++, etc) which is why you have that view(I'm speculating).
    C++ isn't a .NET language. I'll assume you mean MSVC, which also isn't .NET, unless you want it to be. But no, I actually develop primarily for MacOS and mobile environments. Professionally, I'm in mobile development.

    I stand by my advice. I believe its the best route if your goal is to launch into as successful of an early programing career as possible. I am not trying to discredit any other language or career path, more so giving him the tools to find a high paying, full-time job and start his career as quickly and easily as possible. I'm not sure how familiar you are with C or C++ considering the belief its a .NET language (no offense intended), but I think it's fair to say its the most versatile language in terms of both uses and higher-profile non-contract application development jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tls View Post
    Also, if you look at that data, python is requested more than c++.
    It is only most wanted due to the AI libraries, Server API's and RaspberryPi API's, written for it.. IE: TensorFlow, Flask, pySSL, pJWT, pyCryptography, etc.. but ALL of those are written in C++ and wrapped for Python so...

    https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
    https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017 (http://imgur.com/a/N14c7)


    On the Tiobe Index, Python is top 5 but C++ is top 3 and Java is number 1. As for the StackSurvey, Python is most wanted and C++ is top 4. This just means that python is the language that developers want to use the most and it was 4th last year (below C++): http://imgur.com/a/bhYly

    but it isn't the language that is the most popular in the industry as shown by the Tiobe Index. That would be Java due to Android and Apache Servers. C++ is popular due to games & speed. Python is popular due to ease of use and the spike in AI related libraries.


    -------


    For app development? Learn JavaScript, and learn React Native. Then learn Swift and Java on top of that when React Native can't do what you want to do (or just stick with Java if you don't have a Mac to do iOS development on).

    For game development? This'll be a tough one, because a lot more than programming goes into making a game, but just learn C# and Unity3D - use the free assets available. In fact, you could even use JavaScript with it if you wanted to (from before).

    There is absolutely no way.. lol. I work as a mobile developer, and I understand we all have different opinions... but mine is completely opposite to that. In fact, the entirely of the below is completely opposite to everything above.

    Do NOT learn React Native, Xamarin, or Cordova.. Learn Swift, Objective-C, Java (I agree). You will NEVER get featured on the app-store or play-store if the app is not native. ReactNative uses JavaScriptCore.framework on iOS. You are 100% going to suffer performance issue. You are 100% going to lag behind in updates (IE: Apple pushes nice API updates.. gotta wait until ReactNative gets an update to its API to communicate with the underlying API through Javascript).. Developing an app like it's a webpage is the worst idea ever..

    As for Unity, I'm doing it right now to dev a mobile game.. it is super easy to learn and makes things easy (Use C# and IL2CPP! Don't for the life of your team, use C#'s Mono export or JS export).. Do NOT code it on OSX! I can't stress this enough because it will legit crash every 10 minutes and ask you to re-open the program. The Mono-Editor will lose all intelli-sense so unless you memorized all of Unity's API and C#'s API, you are shit out of luck going through thousands of documentation.. Use Windows and Visual-Studio!

    However, good luck doing things like screen space reflections, simple things that can be done in any other engine.. Good luck mixing 2D and 3D.. The amount of unnecessary shaders the thing adds to a single project is insane!! The coordinates are flipped so importing models from Blender will be rotated 90 degrees on one of your axis (Doesn't happen in Play-Canvas or Unreal, just Unity). It will lag like hell for no reason at all.. If it's a mobile game, you can forget about DeferredRendering Cameras.. That means decent lighting, shading, reflections, fog, etc.. it is impossible to position models or anything while the game is running.. it will literally revert all your changes so you have to stop the game every time before modifying values. If you have a variable public in a C# script and you change the value in unity editor then run it, the value will revert to whatever was in the script instead of what you changed it to. Their git collaboration is buggy af! You commit something, it turns green and says it's okay. Kill the editor and reopen it.. boom all changes lost lol..

    A BLANK project COMPILES to 70mb app, with the standard assets (not even in use in 5.5.2f1).. Our current app compiles in 50 minutes (100mb), i7 3.5Ghz, 16GB RAM, the first time and 1-3 minutes every time after that (for iOS).. For Android it takes literally forever! Oh and good luck getting a job with the super saturated market and everyone wanting to do it. It is a nice engine but super buggy and annoying.. but decent.. sorry I don't have an alternative suggestion. I just hate unity.. possibly due to awful experience.


    But what do I know..
    Last edited by Brandon; 05-09-2017 at 04:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the bank View Post
    C++ isn't a .NET language. I'll assume you mean MSVC, which also isn't .NET, unless you want it to be. But no, I actually develop primarily for MacOS and mobile environments. Professionally, I'm in mobile development.

    I stand by my advice. I believe its the best route if your goal is to launch into as successful of an early programing career as possible. I am not trying to discredit any other language or career path, more so giving him the tools to find a high paying, full-time job and start his career as quickly and easily as possible. I'm not sure how familiar you are with C or C++ considering the belief its a .NET language (no offense intended), but I think it's fair to say its the most versatile language in terms of both uses and higher-profile non-contract application development jobs.
    I'm quite aware that c++ is not a .net *only* language, but it fits well into that ecosystem(fits into pretty much all ecosystems with ffi). I've seen more c++ on job descriptions for .net shops than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    It is only most wanted due to the AI libraries, Server API's and RaspberryPi API's, written for it.. IE: TensorFlow, Flask, pySSL, pJWT, pyCryptography, etc.. but ALL of those are written in C++ and wrapped for Python so...

    https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
    https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017 (http://imgur.com/a/N14c7)


    On the Tiobe Index, Python is top 5 but C++ is top 3 and Java is number 1. As for the StackSurvey, Python is most wanted and C++ is top 4. This just means that python is the language that developers want to use the most and it was 4th last year (below C++): http://imgur.com/a/bhYly

    but it isn't the language that is the most popular in the industry as shown by the Tiobe Index. That would be Java due to Android and Apache Servers. C++ is popular due to games & speed. Python is popular due to ease of use and the spike in AI related libraries.
    I'd say python has been popular for a while for statistic related things(numpy, jupyter, other data-sciencey things), and AI is just piggybacking off of that success/tooling.

    I also don't like Tiobe index as its based on web searches, but whatever.
    Last edited by tls; 05-09-2017 at 04:49 AM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by the bank View Post
    I disagree with almost every point you make here.

    1) React/Cordova/PhoneGap projects are no longer welcome on most App Store ecosystems. You also sacrifice any chance of your app being promoted in anyway. Hybrid apps now go against Apple's Human Interface Guidelines which also means goodbye App Store.
    Uh huh. Sure. I agree with those points for Cordova / PhoneGap, but not React Native. React Native isn't "hybrid" in the sense of Cordova.

    Quote Originally Posted by the bank View Post
    2) He said he wants to start a career, not make a game at home. Unity is the most saturated market in game development. Thousands of Unity developers every year graduate unable to find work because they are only proficient in something that any joe-shmoe can learn at home. Not to mention, the jobs already are limited in Unity development. Learning Unity for game development is the easiest way to ensure your career does not start the way you want it to.
    He said he wants to learn, and turn something into a potential career. Unity3D and C# when all you have is Simba experience? Great way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by the bank View Post
    3) DirectX9? For realsies? DirectX12 is out now dude.
    DX9 is very easy to learn and understand. Comparatively, DX12 / Vulkan are a lot harder. Even DX11 and OpenGL are more difficult to learn than DX9.

    Quote Originally Posted by the bank View Post
    Same thing with WordPress. Really? Its 2017.
    If you want to make websites for people, that's all you need, and it's a thriving market.

    Quote Originally Posted by the bank View Post
    I don't mean to sound like a dick, but do you ave any actual industry/professional experience in these specific sectors?
    You clearly have none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Do NOT learn React Native, Xamarin, or Cordova.. Learn Swift, Objective-C, Java (I agree).
    I disagree. I think it's a great and easy way to get into app development, and then transition to Swift or Java when necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    You will NEVER get featured on the app-store or play-store if the app is not native.
    Agreed for Cordova based apps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    ReactNative uses JavaScriptCore.framework on iOS. You are 100% going to suffer performance issue. You are 100% going to lag behind in updates (IE: Apple pushes nice API updates.. gotta wait until ReactNative gets an update to its API to communicate with the underlying API through Javascript)..
    For UI and basic functionality, it's more than enough. Hence why I said to move over to Swift and Java when you need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    Developing an app like it's a webpage is the worst idea ever..
    In the sense of PhoneGap, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    As for Unity, I'm doing it right now to dev a mobile game.. it is super easy to learn and makes things easy (Use C# and IL2CPP! Don't for the life of your team, use C#'s Mono export or JS export)..
    It is a very good learning experience.

    For those that have criticised React Native, have you ever actually tried it? Most mobile app development companies use it now (including mine) to great success. NOT Cordova, which is something completely different and horrible and should never exist.

    Also, ITT, people forgetting that OP is a beginner and should not immediately jump into the most complex and ambitious languages and projects ever, which will just serve as a turn off from programming. Needs to be a fun and enjoyable process, transitioning through various stages to see if he enjoys it that field or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the man View Post
    So would Java be an easier language to grasp or Python?
    No. But if you go to university and study a computer science degree, you're going to learn Java. You're not necessarily going to learn Python (most don't). Atlassian, a big Sydney-based software company, writes all of their products in Java, and you'll need to know Java if you want to work there. Google Australia likewise requires some Java knowledge, although they're more focused on you knowing Python and C++. Depends where you want to go and what you want to do.
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    @Daniel; it is different in the sense that it calls native API's which even phonegap and Cordova have to do via a web view.. but it's still NOT native. It's still an entire app of JavaScript files interpreted by JSCore. It won't ever get featured.

    You say OP can later transition to Swift and Java? That's not a transition at all. That's a complete do-over.. JS and Java/Swift aren't anything alike.. with React and ReactNative on top, there is no transitioning. If OP tried to "transition" to Obj-C they'd get rekt.

    Most companies using react as a way to say: "Hey we can build you 'Native' apps that are cross-platform for half the cost".. 99% of the time that's false advertising. They hire these web-dev wannabe app developers that have no idea how apps work but try to build it like a mobile web page. It's cheaper to hire one WebDev to use react to build an app for iOS AND Android.. OP will have to learn React, JS, ReactNative.

    Yes I've used it.. by force.. IMO, avoiding the main languages of the platforms in favour of "Easier" is a bad idea. As a beginner, OP needs to learn it like everyone else. There are no shortcuts. Learn the platform(s) instead of these third-party frameworks that "make things easier" and some unrelated language.

    --

    As for Unity, I'm not going to argue that because you are right it is good for beginners.. but job-wise he'll have no chance (might sound negative).

    --

    DirectX-9 is definitely easier, but so out-dated it isn't worth learning other than for the concepts.. but you'd be also learning out-dated concepts. Choose your poison OP. Easy but old? Or Hard but new.
    Last edited by Brandon; 05-09-2017 at 10:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    @Daniel; it is different in the sense that it calls native API's which even phonegap and Cordova have to do via a web view.. but it's still NOT native. It's still an entire app of JavaScript files interpreted by JSCore. It won't ever get featured.

    You say OP can later transition to Swift and Java? That's not a transition at all. That's a complete do-over.. JS and Java/Swift aren't anything alike.. with React and ReactNative on top, there is no transitioning. If OP tried to "transition" to Obj-C they'd get rekt.

    Most companies using react as a way to say: "Hey we can build you 'Native' apps that are cross-platform for half the cost".. 99% of the time that's false advertising. They hire these web-dev wannabe app developers that have no idea how apps work but try to build it like a mobile web page. It's cheaper to hire one WebDev to use react to build an app for iOS AND Android.. OP will have to learn React, JS, ReactNative.

    Yes I've used it.. by force.. IMO, avoiding the main languages of the platforms in favour of "Easier" is a bad idea. As a beginner, OP needs to learn it like everyone else. There are no shortcuts. Learn the platform(s) instead of these third-party frameworks that "make things easier" and some unrelated language.
    Fair enough. That was my opinion at first too. But then I forced myself to give it a go. And I had to use it on a client project due to time constraints. And it grew on me. No noticeable performance issues at all, native UI components across both iOS and Android, quick development time, and people are happy. Now, it's what I use and get others to use if the spec doesn't specify any language requirements. Any performance critical operations can very easily be written in Swift or Java. To each their own.

    But for OP, I think it's more than fine to get him into mobile app development. Quick development time, easy to see results. You're not going to be making any games with it (you could, but they'd suck), but for apps? Sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    ...
    I was trying to have an intellectual discussion about app development but you not only fail to respond to my question but also insult my qualifications after I've already made them clear. You do you bud, and if that's the kind of career you want then by all means, enjoy your bountiful freelance work and milk that React JS for all its worth. If you believe that React gives you a better or equal chance of ending up featured on an App Store then you are wrong, simple as that. It is still a hybrid framework, and wrapper or not it is not native. I fully disagree that op should at all limit his ambitions because of how much he knows now. My intent was to have an intellectual conversation about mobile development, not a pissing match.

    @tls;
    No C++ isn't .NET what-so-ever. Microsoft has come out with MSVC, which can be used to with the CLR to create windows-based and dotnet-based applications - but usually when one talks about that they directly call it MSVC or Visual C++ to avoid confusion. C++/CLI I believe is the most correct, which replaced the deprecated "Managed-C++".

    C++ itself has been around since the late 70s / early 80s, and is not a Microsoft product in any sense. It's been upgraded in large iterations, and has its own standards committee. C++ is used to write cross platform code for Windows, MacOS, Linux, any game system you can think of, etc. There is no doubt its the most versatile language used today. Plus you can always just write straight C code, since they are completely compatible within each other. Whatever OS you are reading this post from, is more than likely written in C and C++. The literal .Net Runtime is written in C++.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
    As for Unity, I'm not going to argue that because you are right it is good for beginners.. but job-wise he'll have no chance (might sound negative).

    --

    DirectX-9 is definitely easier, but so out-dated it isn't worth learning other than for the concepts.. but you'd be also learning out-dated concepts. Choose your poison OP. Easy but old? Or Hard but new.
    I fully agree. The year after I graduated my program pivoted towards Unity development and all I have heard about since is the nightmare of trying to get hired after. I've seen it with my own eyes. As for DX9, would it even be possible to get a formal education on that anymore? Shouldn't that kind of be the rule-of-thumb that something is far too aged?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the man View Post
    So would Java be an easier language to grasp or Python?
    That's entirely up to the kind of mindset and student that you are. The most important thing is to have something to actually do with your knowledge, something to work towards. Since you are in the Runescape scene, you may find Java to have more appealing goals and therefore push yourself that little bit harder to learn. Generally speaking, Python is an easier language, but as a few of us have said.. easy shouldn't be all you're aiming for and Java also forces the OOP methodology which will be a good way for you to learn that, coming from Simba development.

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    Sounds good. I might have a look into Java. Will be harder but I suppose it would be more worth while. Thanks for all of your advice guys

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