Atheist
Agnostic
Religious
So, God can break the rules because he is Almighty, huh? How would you like it if your parents did that to you? You don't. Unless you're trying to imply that God is the biggest hypocrite in the universe. If God can create the world in seven days, then he can surely remove these "enemies" of his (why does he have so many enemies anyways? Isn't he the Supreme?) without resorting to cruel and unusual methods.
Well, you refer mostly to the old testament, so I did too. I can pull a lot of stuff out of the new testament too, if you wish. Especially Revelations.
With the Darwin thing, you just disproved your own point. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but he also knew it was the truth. So either it doesn't support you at all, or it undermines you.
As for the China info, I'll admit I was wrong, I had read the dates terribly. But again, I tell you that the flood has no proof of divine intervention.
Yes, I explained why I "try to refute everything you say" in a previous post. I will not reiterate here, but proof by contradiction is also a valid proof.
I guess the holidays are over - no sig for now.
Wow... you guys really need to pick your battles. Your basically falling into every trap!
When you debate, you need to think as much of the opponents arguments, as well as your own (please, I learned that in like middle school).
Some one really needs to get here to switch sides, lol. [] is utterly slaughtering every weak post here (thank you for doing so). So.. stop making them!
EDIT:
Forgive me, I don't have a clue where this conversation started, or even what its about. So im just going to take bits of pieces of what I read recently. Sorry.
This is genesis stuff. Which is probably some of the most abstract crap in the bible. Anyhows, It is stated quite a few times in the bible (please don't make me look them up) That Gods time scale is NOT the same as ours. A few biblical quotes give some ratio's of it, but I think its even more advanced than that, I think the ratio of God's time to ours can VARY as he chooses.God can create the world in seven days
God doesnt really have enemies. not even the devil really. And although god theoreticaly could, at any point in time, remove anyone or thing that is against him. He never would. It would defeat the entire plan of salvation. It would make earth a worthless, dull, unchallenging experience. There must always be a contrast, with out bad, good does not exist. God wasn't trying to get people out of Egypt, he was trying their faith. Pushing them to thier limits. There were experiences in egypt that needed to happen, both for the people at the time, and people reading about them. If God wanted them out of egypt, they would have never been there in the first place.then he can surely remove these "enemies" of his (why does he have so many enemies anyways? Isn't he the Supreme?)
Why would god ever try to adhere to our standards of cruel and unusual? Theres no point in making what he does look good to us. God>Bill of rights (or may be it was the constitution.. sorry)without resorting to cruel and unusual methods.
Anyhow, I know this picking apart is a bit unfair, I'll try to stay up to speed for now on.
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You know, you're right again.
If you can portray to me a loving God without resorting to the Bible, then I'll have nothing to say. Chronicles of Narnia could've made me become Christian again. But then I also read the Golden Compass series.
I say don't look to the bible, because that's one of THE WORST examples of love you can give me. People compare its violence to the Qur'an, if that means anything to you.
I guess the holidays are over - no sig for now.
You want me to prove God is loving without using the Bible? I can do that...
http://tinyurl.com/quufe
http://tinyurl.com/dry6p
http://tinyurl.com/2lp3v8
http://tinyurl.com/l3qho
http://tinyurl.com/363of7
Omg, are you kidding me???? Just because a kittens face looks cute to your humans eyes has next to NOTHING to do with god being loving!
Oh wait, are your trying to say that god loves you so much , he made kittens have cute faces so you could look at them on the internet and be happy? Thats pathetically abstract, and relys upon way to many debatable points. (One of them being that kittens are cute, lol)
Way to ruin a good opportunity.
Here, I'll give you a decent example in a little bit ok?
Edit: Ok, this turned out to be allot harder than I thought. Not because there arent any, but more of, there arent any that are blatant enough. (ie not personal)
God, for the most part, is just. I would say tht that is his most defining quality. Jesus, on the other hand, is the forgiving one, (forgive me if I am confusing you by separating them).
And unfortunatly, the only decent documentary on christ we have is the bible, so .. trash that.
What about now...
A while back... I made a post about a baby bird my fiencee brought home. I didn't know how to take care of it, and I probably would have killed it. It was supposed to receive food every hour... I didn't feed it for at least a 13... It was weak, it couldn't open its eyes, and it was getting cold. I knew it was going to die. (I apologize for the lack of real evidence, I never thought it necessary to video take me try to count its pulse, of measure its temperature).
Long story short, I got attached to that bird, I was breaking down emotionally, the bird was breaking down physically.
i asked God for help, stopped crying, went to sleep, the bird was better in the morning, and we were finally contacted by an expert who could take care of it.
It's a small thing, but its the most recent thing that happened to me that I attribute to be related to God more then most other chances.
I know this is a pretty weak argument, and most people would consider this just bull and that the bird would have made it just fine regardless of my prayr or not. Perhaps the reason I felt better after the prayr was just because in my head I felt that a god was going to take care of it, putting me at ease.
But look, I'm no fool, and If i had any choice whether to believe in God or not, I wouldn't. But unfortunately I know that there was a little bit more than random chance helping me out there.
...sigh... Here, you win. I can't show you a loving God without referring to the bible. Because it is only in the bible where I can avoid annoying issues such as "was it god who did that?"
You can notice a loving god, once you admit that things don't happen by chance.
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All right. Let's see now...
First of all, I agree with you, the time scale thing is off. I have thought about it ever since I have become an apagnostic. So I have nothing to say there, except that I don't really believe God created the world by himself. Even scientists have team members.
Next, with the enemies, I was responding to another quote in which phanatik said that God was destroying his "enemies". So I don't believe God has "enemies" either, what with everyone being sons of His. As for the Devil, if he did not exist, then the point of God would be gone too. So they are more team members than enemies. God WOULD NOT destroy Satan. Else people would stop believing in him (for people that would still believe, I respect them very highly.)
The "cruel and unusual" is the only thing I disagree with. God is purported to have an infinite sense of mercy, what stops him from using it? And I was quoting from the Bill of Rights to show a point, not referring to it.
So yes, I have agreed with you on some points there. Why? Read on.
I have finally found what bugs me about people that try to prove the existence of God. God is the Ultimate, the Almighty. Why would he want YOU to be definite of his presence? A tiny little smidgen? What proof do you have that he has not created another universe, and forsaken you? None.
Next, I have no problem with Christians in general. In fact, I even welcome the Jehovah's Witnesses who come to my doorstep every so often to try and make me join their local church. I always decline politely, but I love them for they GENUINELY believe they are working for MY welfare. Also, they try to make me join NOT by trying to prove the existence of God, but by showing how I can be a loving person, and how THEY are too. Nowhere in their pamphlets do they tell me to believe in God. They are a persistent, kind people, people I would rather talk with than argue.
Next, religion has already conceded proofing to science.
Lastly, when you try to PROVE God, you are not resorting to faith (not blind faith, which I despise), but are coming onto science's grounds. I am SURE God does NOT want to you try and prove him, but rather love him, or spread love to other people.
If God is all that [phanatik] says he is, I'd rather not trust him with my welfare. Though I am less perfect, I prefer my independence to his control of destiny. If God is portrayed as a human, who is able to make mistakes, yet follows the same rules as we do, I would be more likely to believe in him. With the state of the world, the latter seems more real.
I have seen your kittens post, thephanatik. I am amused at what you resort to. Want me to pull out my own pics?
A cat.
Another cat.
A last cat.
They're all cute in their own ways, but my point is that trying to prove the kindness of God with kittens is futile.
I guess the holidays are over - no sig for now.
Jesus in my opinion is the one with mercy. God doesn't use it because he doesn't really need to. Mabey some people really needed to see "Locusts up on ya azz". Perhaps by deciding to be a bit harsh was the most merciful thing he could do. Sure, mabey not on earth, but as a lesson that can help them thereafter. If you think of earthlings as his children, sometimes the parent needs to be merciful and forgiving, other times, it's time for a whooping.
Yes! Exactly! If it were so easy to prove his existence, then that would just defeat the purpose of testing people. It would remove any and all rewards of trust and faith! I don't think god will EVER do anything to prove his existence unless he KNOWS that people still won't believe. (exodus for example)
Well, as far as him making another universe, yeah, none. In fact, ive a good hunch that he already has... there are references to it in the bible.
Now, as far as forsaken this one? I have the bible saying that the earth is supposed to get really wiked and .. away from god.. as it can before he finally comes back (second comming). And I have my own personal revelations that force me to belive that he still, not only cares about what happens on earth, but has his hand in every little bit of it.
What proof do you have that he has forsaken this world?
I have never really read through their pamplets... but I agree with you, they are very nice people, who really believe in what they think. It's a good idea to not really try to prove god's existence, it's supposed to be hard, in fact, it's supposed to be impossible. The only thing that can prove someting like that is a personal conversion, whatever form that will take. (I belive that 90% of all god belivers, if not more, don't truly belive in him, because they have not had this... therefore they have no proof, and just have faith blindly).
This blind faith explains quite a few of the downfalls of most organized religion.
Yeah, i suppose that is true by definition. But not all evidence has to by hard science fact's does it?
Yes, I don't want anyhting to do with a God that want's to control me. But that's jsut the point. It's VERY obvious that god doesnt do this. It is becisary for any trial or test, and obvoiusly, on earth; for every person to have their own free agency. Thats so unbelievably necessary that God won't stop even the most evil of actions, because by doing so, he would be taking that away from someone. (Want proof, look at the world, he obviously doesnt stop bad things).
Me too. It's a humiliating rebuttle.
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I've never thought of the merciful = wrath thing, and though it is brain food, I'm still skeptical. But it certainly provides a new view. Makes me think of the generic parent. In which this analogy makes perfect sense. I'll think about that. But sometimes, I don't think it applies, and can't help but think he's overdoing it (the flood again).
If God wanted people to know that he existed, then I wouldn't be disagreeing with thephanatik right now, because I would know he was there. But he doesn't make me. So no go either way.
Ok, I have as much proof as you have in this "forsaken" aspect, which is none. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. And the Revelations (no matter how violent they are) still support the opinion that he just might come back to rain judgment. In which case, I hope he's pretty lenient. Because if he does come back as a strict schoolteacher, I'm not going to be playing a harp (at least by the evangelist definition. I'm a good person at heart, I think).
Yes, most people only believe in God because their parents do, which provides me with a healthy dose of skepticism. But a personal commitment, or a true conversion, as you call it, should be kept to, and I will not try to argue the existence of God with someone who has had one. I keep my opinions to myself with those people, but try to discuss WHAT God does in his existence.
No, it doesn't, but it's hard for me to be a person of faith, so I tend to be a science-believer. A bit too much. Because religion had the same hold on people that science does now. Who knows, maybe something new will spring up in the next millennium that doesn't deal with central figures or laws of the universe.
In truth, as a Christian, I didn't believe in the existence of Hell. I believed in his infinite mercy upon all living things, no matter how cruel the person was in life. I don't know how that works out, but God himself doesn't work out in terms of human minds (as in, he's quite incomprehensible).
But we're probably just talking to ourselves right now. It seems as if the evangelist Christians/atheists have disappeared.
I guess the holidays are over - no sig for now.
Yeah, the flood is pretty interesting. Sucks that the only people to survive it really didn't know the details behind it.
Yeah, just make sure you shuffle on into jesus's little line, you'll be fine I would assume. Thoughts are sometimes loader than actions (specially the heart type), if they are true thoughts, and if they are real feelings (although, ironicly, if they are, they almost always result in action).
I really dont think that god is going to get pissed at you for not realizing they exist, thats miniscule. JC is probably going to pull every string he has to get you into heaven.
Yeah, thats a fair judgement. It makes for poor arguments sake when all the proof is personal, lol. I really do enjoy talking about it though, I respect your opinions highly, and apreciate your thoughts. I think its good refinement / enlightenment for both of us.
That would sure be crazy.I think that I am science driven myself. There is nothing really wrong with it, and I think better scientifically rather than logically. (yes, i seperated them on purpose :P ) It is pretty amazing (looking back at feudal times) to see how much power a corrucp church could have over people. I really like you analogy, on how its flip floped seince then
. However, as this science stuff grows stronger, it seems to force religion to try to match it. I don't think the world has ever seen such close minded zealots as we have now.
Ok , EVERY BIT of what you just said, i agree with. And couldn't have said it better. I still don't believe in hell, in fact, I am almost positive that it doesn't exist. (or at least not a big and fire/brimstone idea) It gets complicated after this though, because I still believe that people will be rewarded for being good on earth, and that we arent going to be on the same level as some child rapest scum. (for give me for judging, but I think thats a legit comment, or at least one strong enough that you wont be able to argue very well that child rapers arent scum..)
What a pitty. They are great for commic relief. Wait.. forgive me, but what's your definition of "evangelist" as you just used it?
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Umm, I can only respond to two of your comments, as the other, you just agreed with (aww man... hehe).
As for child rapists, they are some of the lowest of the low. I have no disagreements. But I would place the mentally insane people as above the "scum" classification, though I still feel pain for their victims.
And as for evangelists, they are people who force their definitions of God and religion upon others. I would make a good one, I believe. Heh.
I guess the holidays are over - no sig for now.
Lol, sorry, it wasnt on purpose let me assure you, lol.
I would too; however, I would only classify the true mentally insine people. I know that most people who have a "mental ilness" dont. Especially when they get into trouble, its an excuse, and it makes me mad how people get out of trouble wiht that. In my opinion, anyone who rapes some one is mentally insane by definition.
Lol, Ok, thats what I thought you mean, I was just used to a different usage of the word. And yes, you would make a good one, you argue very effectively, and are very forcefully in your thoughts. With a little bit less thought, and more of a closed mind, you'd be perfect.
Edit: I just noticed that this post has almost nothing to do with this thread... Sorry!!!
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About the mental illness thing, the TRUE ones are the ONLY ones I talk about when I say mentally ill. Otherwise, the others are scum. And I hope people don't take offense at my use of the word retarded. The word "retard" to me is someone who spouts their stupidity intentionally. The "other" "retard" I always call "mentally structured differently".
I guess the holidays are over - no sig for now.
Damn, you guys wanna discuss this over PMs or IM?
Hey lady, I need a yank! Ha ha, dislocation.
We already are half-discussing this over PMs. One step ahead, lolpie. No offense meant.
I guess the holidays are over - no sig for now.
You guys make me feel stupid. Which I'm not. At least, I keep telling myself that. . .Eh, maybe ignorant would be a better term. I pretty much agree with both of you.
Only thing I can say is, if God doesn't exist then what's the purpose? Why should we bother living if there is no higher goal or. . .just anything after we die? We wouldn't be working towards anything. If I had full-blown proof that there was no God, I'd commit suicide on the dot. I don't believe in God (agnostic), at least not the way the Church wants me to, but I ask myself the above question a lot. There's something for you two to answer for me.
Lemme eat, then I'll answer you. Even girls eat.
I guess the holidays are over - no sig for now.
Lies.
Yes, using your own logic. If there is nothing after you die, then thats a pretty good reason to keep on living, lol.If God doesn't exist then what's the purpose? Why should we bother living if there is no higher goal or. . .just anything after we die?
No higher goal you say? Sure there is. One thing that is pretty nifty about this earth is that you can set goals, and work on achiving them. Just because there isn't a goal as high as heaven, ... well look. If you take heaven out of the picture (as you would by removing god), then goals such as say... making a wizzup quality script start looking alot better in perspective.
Besides... what do you plan to do in heaven? Whats the purpose going to be in there? I don't think heaven is going to have a heaven to get to... so I would say that ..
Your goal on earth without heaven = your goal in heaven without a heaven heaven.
Well, thats a personal choice. I sure would be, I'd be working towards whatever made me happy. Besides, you still have those nice carnal instinks to rely on if theres no god? like, when god said "multiply and replenssh the earth" ... that was just redundant for the instink all living things have. (the only reason he said it was to give a nice ironic situation when combined with "don't eat the apple" after she did.)We wouldn't be working towards anything.
Something tells me your a teenager... yeah, I had the same stuff going on. It gets clearer / less of a problem as you get older and understand yourself more.If I had full-blown proof that there was no God, I'd commit suicide on the dot. I don't believe in God (agnostic), at least not the way the Church wants me to, but I ask myself the above question a lot.
Oh, for the record, I am just playing devils advocate... but still.
There's something for you two to answer for me.
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- Yeah, but acheiving goals in this world don't really mean anything. Well. . .they do, but they have no real. . .purpose. I can't really explain what I mean. I have goals that I'd like to acheive, but only because they'd help people. I'd like to cure cancer. Most likely not going to happen, but I'll work on it until the day I die or am incapable of doing it anymore. But I mean that what's the point on trying to do anything helpful? I could just as easily make my goal to rob and kill as many people as I can. I believe that I'm a decent person at heart, so that's not my goal, but it just as easily could be.
- Figured that would give me awaySomething tells me your a teenager... yeah, I had the same stuff going on. It gets clearer / less of a problem as you get older and understand yourself more.I hate being young. . .Alright, now I REALLY sound like a teenager.
- Heaven isn't really defined extremely well in the Bible. So I can't honestly say. I'm just assuming being in God's presence would be about as high as you could get and that Heaven would be all that it's made to be.Besides... what do you plan to do in heaven? Whats the purpose going to be in there? I don't think heaven is going to have a heaven to get to... so I would say that ..
Your goal on earth without heaven = your goal in heaven without a heaven heaven.
- Yeah, but you can't be happy without being angry/sad/some other grim emotion first. Like you said about the whole "There'd be no good without bad" deal. And I would like my life to have a higher purpose than to have sex.Well, thats a personal choice. I sure would be, I'd be working towards whatever made me happy. Besides, you still have those nice carnal instinks to rely on if theres no god? like, when god said "multiply and replenssh the earth" ... that was just redundant for the instink all living things have. (the only reason he said it was to give a nice ironic situation when combined with "don't eat the apple" after she did.)
Hey lady, I need a yank! Ha ha, dislocation.
Why not? why wouldn't they have a real purpose? They would, they have to almost by definition
I dont think you know what you mean.
Youre telling me that ALL of your goals are selfless? That you want to cure cancer on to help people, and not for the fame and fortune it would bring? How ideal, but sure.. for the sake of argument, I'll ride with it.
Well, now your tlaking morality, and thats going to make this far to complicated. Most people set goals, becuase it is what makes them happy, or they in vision themself being happy completing it, for whatever reason (in yours, a happiness form helping people). The point on doing things helpful, It is the same, people do helpful things because it makes them feel good. And yes, your right, if there really is no heaven, then it defanitly lessens the argument against robbing a bank, but regardless, he would still have a goal, and a reason to live, without a heaven.
God is in heaven. We are like God. We all have a drive for progress. We will have that same drive in heaven. I won't be happy sitting on a cloud playing a harp no matter who I am around.
Anyhow, thats off topic, the point is, it is NOT necessary to have a next higher plane, in order to have a purpose.
I don't see your point? Are you saying that there is nothing bad here on earth to contrast being happy? Because, um, there is.
And yeah, the sex part, me too, but the point is, ure going to have a goal, no matter what level of intelligence you are on.
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