Poll: How was human life formed?

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Thread: Evo Vs. Creo/itellegent design

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardmaster View Post
    i think perhaps putting this into a time-frame perspective might be usefull. a billion years is such a rediculously large amount of time, that i think no-one truly grasps its enourmosity. if you give quadrillions of mokeys typewriters to bash on, one of them will probably reproduce the works of shakesbeare. also, you may not believe in paralell universes, but if you do, think about it, the ONE universe in which life is created, is the only one where people are there to ponder it. (or perhaps there are multiple universes with life)
    Yes, time is important, but let's put it into the CORRECT perspective. Current theories are based on cosmological events that are believed to have taken place. The most important for this discussion is the bombardment of the earth with meteors. The earth was so thoroughly pummeled with so many devastating meteors for such a long period of time that most scientists believe that even if the precursors to life HAD begun, it would have been wiped out repeatedly. So, for that reason, most scientists believe that life began AFTER this bombardment stopped. This ended roughly 3.8 billion years ago.

    If you look at the fossil record, the earliest evidence of bacterial fossils is found at roughly 3.5 billion years ago. This limits the time frame available for the leap from soup to bacteria to roughly 200-300 million years. Not billions and billions. This alone does not preclude the possibility that life may have still arisen in this fashion, but it DOES require scientists to look for mechanisms that can develop rapidly over shortish geologic time frames rather than over eons.

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    although it makes sense that life could not survive during the bombardment by meteors, that does not rule out the possibility of the building blocks (i.e. amino acids) surviving. thus when the bombardment was finshed everything was in place for life to develop rapidly. the part where the billions of years comes in is from the start of the earth to the end of the bombardment. i have also read some pretty interesting theories on reproducing chains of silicon. hardly what you can call life, but they do form pretty easily.

    p.s. i am just curious, but what exactly do you believe? most people who dont believe in evolution do not belive in a large geological time scale.

    i also realised how out of context my idea about paralell universes is. there is much less to back that theory up than the theory of evolution.

    And check out my pascal interpreter!
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    Voted the 3rd one down. Read in Hebrew, the story of the creation of the world can be interpreted many different ways... Anyhow, no further comments on that:

    Religion = WARS

    MMh.. What if we're all just simulated by a gigantic computer in a sidepocket of the universe??? What if reality was simulated, huh... We could like all just be the imagination of some person, built up of some artificial matter or a network of neurons.

    What if life just suddenly "popped" into existance because some person thought of it? What if we live in a sort of MATRIX, where life, time, and space are merely very extreme and persistent illusions? Hypothetically seen, the truth of this statement can only be verified if glitches in the so called "simulation" are found.

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    cool, i am a program!
    ^^^^^^^^

    And check out my pascal interpreter!
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    compromise... you could say that god created the atoms/molecules... which led to big bang and planets.. and bacteria developed... and thus evolution goes on....
    see evolution is most likely true... but it still doesn't address the problem of what created us... it just explains the process of creation, not the very very beginning.
    btw... tarajunky i must compliment you on your eloquent verbosity (lawl)...did you do a philosophy/science course or something... i didn't realise the many intricate flaws within the macromolecule theory :S...
    basically it boils down to a few views (or at least my views which tend to fluctuate:
    life's a fluke
    life is guided by god
    or... god touched a few things here and there.. but everything else is a fluke...

  6. #31
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    This should clear it all up for you..

    EDIT:
    Darwinism- If you check his book "The Origin Of The Species" he says that if organs were too complexe to be evoulved then there was no ways his " theory" would could be right.
    In Darwin's time we did not have the knowledge that we have today. There is not way one cell developed into a complexe organ and made things such as blood vesels, membranes, nervous systems, hearts, the distribution of blood etc. In short of this edit, If Darwin were alive today he would renounce his theory(That is only my guess).

    I go to a private School and i am sort of trained in the aspect of this.

    Ok now i do not remeber the mathamaticians names but here is a situation calculated by a NON-GODBELIEVING NON-CHRISTIAN ETC.

    He since turned to Christainity..

    The Odds of the universe being created exactly perfect, everything in order where everything happened etc is the POSSIBILITY OF A TORNADO GOING THROUGH A JUNKYARD AND ASSEMBLING A 747 AIRPLANE IN FULL WORKING ORDER READY TO FLY!!

    Also nothing can't come from nothing..

    If you assume for a moment that there is intelegent design(EG A god)
    then couldn't he make everything how it is today?

    If there really was a flood that god sent, couldn't it have added carbonition, etc. (watever) to the minerals?

    If you think about it you dont just look at the computer you're staring into and say hey, this came from nothing. You know something created it. It didnt just come to exist.

    If there was a god, and he was all powerful, couldn't he have been there for all eternity?

    If you think of Jesus(scientists have infact clarified that he was real not saying that he was God's son though), and you may not know the story but he was cruxified for his people and rose again 3 days later from the grave, then there are a few points i would like you to consider.

    1. If the roman officials wanted to prove Jesus wasn't alive to the Jews, why didn't they show the people? They lost the body is the only logical reason.And Lmfao at that there is no way they "lost the body" Unless they were horrible at keeping things in the first place therefore they're sorce wouldn't be reliable in the first place.

    2. Second of all if you examine the story of Jesus in say John, He goes into what is called " excessive detail" that means he says things that aren't neccesary to the story such as "The linen was rolled neatly and too the right side of the tomb". No person that was lying would do that..That is one techinique people use today in criminal court cases to see if some1 is lying.

    3. Speaking of today's court cases, the last is of the witness's. Usually today you only need one witness to decide a court case. There were 500 witnesses. If you had a surevey of 500 people and they all said they saw him with their eyes wouldn't that be proof enough..


    And i only have minimal knowledge of these arguments. I learned them two yearsd ago and those are the only one i rememebr if you're more interested please check another site or i may update this later .

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  7. #32
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    Eh I just feel like it

    Quote Originally Posted by pwnaz0r View Post
    This should clear it all up for you..

    EDIT:
    Darwinism- If you check his book "The Origin Of The Species" he says that if organs were too complexe to be evoulved then there was no ways his " theory" would could be right.
    In Darwin's time we did not have the knowledge that we have today. There is not way one cell developed into a complexe organ and made things such as blood vesels, membranes, nervous systems, hearts, the distribution of blood etc. In short of this edit, If Darwin were alive today he would renounce his theory(That is only my guess).
    Organs evolve from slightly less complex organs, and so and so on, back to single cell organisms. It's hard to grasp just how long and slow it is.

    Also, babies start off as 1 cell.


    I go to a private School and i am sort of trained in the aspect of this.
    If it's a religious private school, then you are biased, and perhaps brainwashed rather than trained.

    The Odds of the universe being created exactly perfect, everything in order where everything happened etc is the POSSIBILITY OF A TORNADO GOING THROUGH A JUNKYARD AND ASSEMBLING A 747 AIRPLANE IN FULL WORKING ORDER READY TO FLY!!
    Again, people underestimate how big the universe is. If you had enough junkyards and tornadoes, it would happen eventually. But this is a really big number. People win the lottery, with a really small possibility of winning, but the thing is a lot of people play it that don't win. Just as there are a lot of stars without planets, a lot of planets not suitable for life etc etc.

    Also, god twitching his nose like jeanie and poof, theres the earth seems very unlikely too.

    Yes it is amazing that we are here, either way. Just accept it. There's no special reason for it.

    Also nothing can't come from nothing..
    Where did god come from?
    BigBang theory explains where the universe came from, except not where the highly dense mass of all the matter came from in the first place.
    Either way, we're stuck with, 'it was just there' or 'there was no existence/time before'. You have a choice, a chunk of mass was just there, or an all powerful being was just there. And if you go by complex things being harder to just be happen/be there/evolve.....

    If you assume for a moment that there is intelegent design(EG A god)
    You can just assume anything.
    then couldn't he make everything how it is today?
    That's a flaw in the whole god thing, god can do anything, so its a cop out. This is why I think a superman video game would be lame, and why I am kinda glad the Hiro couldn't just time travel and save Charlie in Heroes, because the writers could use it as an excuse. This is believing what you are told with faith, rather than thinking about it.

    If there really was a flood that god sent, couldn't it have added carbonition, etc. (watever) to the minerals?
    Don't know what you mean there.

    If you think about it you dont just look at the computer you're staring into and say hey, this came from nothing. You know something created it. It didnt just come to exist.
    Again, where did god come from, see above.

    If there was a god, and he was all powerful, couldn't he have been there for all eternity?
    Again, the ingredients for bigbang could have been there.

    If you think of Jesus(scientists have infact clarified that he was real not saying that he was God's son though), and you may not know the story but he was cruxified for his people and rose again 3 days later from the grave, then there are a few points i would like you to consider.

    1. If the roman officials wanted to prove Jesus wasn't alive to the Jews, why didn't they show the people? They lost the body is the only logical reason.And Lmfao at that there is no way they "lost the body" Unless they were horrible at keeping things in the first place therefore they're sorce wouldn't be reliable in the first place.
    Not going into that because I am not familiar with the whole story, nor know if its true.

    2. Second of all if you examine the story of Jesus in say John, He goes into what is called " excessive detail" that means he says things that aren't neccesary to the story such as "The linen was rolled neatly and too the right side of the tomb". No person that was lying would do that..That is one techinique people use today in criminal court cases to see if some1 is lying.
    I have read plenty of completely fictional novels with lots of detail. Secondly, maybe John wasn't lying, maybe he was a character made up by one of the many many writers of the bible. Or maybe he was misquoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by pwnaz0r View Post
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    I can say whatever I want, doesn't mean it's true.


    3. Speaking of today's court cases, the last is of the witness's. Usually today you only need one witness to decide a court case. There were 500 witnesses. If you had a surevey of 500 people and they all said they saw him with their eyes wouldn't that be proof enough..
    Again, I can make 1000 names and forge 1000 signatures. (I have a life though lol). You are assuming the bible/john/witnesses is true, because the bible said so, it's a loop.

    And i only have minimal knowledge of these arguments. I learned them two yearsd ago and those are the only one i rememebr if you're more interested please check another site or i may update this later .
    Same here, I just like finding holes

  8. #33
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    Every theory has holes. That's why there is a debate. If there were no holes in the science, the debate wouldn't happen, or a least it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

    One of the 'holes' on evolution that hasn't been brought up has to do with the inherent problems of dating fossils. The evolutionists point to the fossil record and say that there is clear evidence that species X came from species Y, etc. If evolution is true, then you expect to see a line of gradual changes going back through time that connect to a common ancestor. You don't expect to see 'ancestors' showing up before 'transition' fossils though, since the timing would be out of order.

    So, how do you decide which fossils are older and which fossils are newer? The most common way is to date the fossil based on the rock strata that it is in. So, if the fossil is found in a stratum that is a million years old, then the fossil is a million years old. Easy, right? Yes, but the problem is that most rock strata are dated based on the fossils found in it. So, if you find fossils that are 1 million years old, then the layer is 1 million years old, and since the layer is 1 million years old the fossils in that layer are 1 million years old. It's circular logic.

    So, when geologists dig down into the ground and find fossils "out of place", they just wave their hands and explain it away as a some sort of fault line that made the 100 million year old fossils show up on top of the 10 million year old fossils. This type of thing happens all the time.

    And yes there are techniques available to date fossils, such as radiocarbon dating, but those techniques can only go back so far. The half-life of carbon 14 is something like 5000 years. So, if you have a fossil 1 million years old and a fossil 2 million years old, carbon dating can't tell any difference between them, since all the C14 has already long since decayed in both samples. So, you are left with guesses about the dating, which ASSUME evolution took place. And attempting to use such dating techniques to prove evolution has occurred throws you right back into that circular logic, since you assumed it did to set up the dating in the first place. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Eh I just feel like it


    Organs evolve from slightly less complex organs, and so and so on, back to single cell organisms. It's hard to grasp just how long and slow it is.

    Also, babies start off as 1 cell.




    If it's a religious private school, then you are biased, and perhaps brainwashed rather than trained.

    Again, people underestimate how big the universe is. If you had enough junkyards and tornadoes, it would happen eventually. But this is a really big number. People win the lottery, with a really small possibility of winning, but the thing is a lot of people play it that don't win. Just as there are a lot of stars without planets, a lot of planets not suitable for life etc etc.

    Also, god twitching his nose like jeanie and poof, theres the earth seems very unlikely too.

    Yes it is amazing that we are here, either way. Just accept it. There's no special reason for it.


    Where did god come from?
    BigBang theory explains where the universe came from, except not where the highly dense mass of all the matter came from in the first place.
    Either way, we're stuck with, 'it was just there' or 'there was no existence/time before'. You have a choice, a chunk of mass was just there, or an all powerful being was just there. And if you go by complex things being harder to just be happen/be there/evolve.....


    You can just assume anything.

    That's a flaw in the whole god thing, god can do anything, so its a cop out. This is why I think a superman video game would be lame, and why I am kinda glad the Hiro couldn't just time travel and save Charlie in Heroes, because the writers could use it as an excuse. This is believing what you are told with faith, rather than thinking about it.


    Don't know what you mean there.


    Again, where did god come from, see above.


    Again, the ingredients for bigbang could have been there.


    Not going into that because I am not familiar with the whole story, nor know if its true.


    I have read plenty of completely fictional novels with lots of detail. Secondly, maybe John wasn't lying, maybe he was a character made up by one of the many many writers of the bible. Or maybe he was misquoted.


    I can say whatever I want, doesn't mean it's true.



    Again, I can make 1000 names and forge 1000 signatures. (I have a life though lol). You are assuming the bible/john/witnesses is true, because the bible said so, it's a loop.


    Same here, I just like finding holes
    Not begin critical(purely my opinion don't want to start flaming) but it looks to me that these answers are ludicris

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Again, I can make 1000 names and forge 1000 signatures. (I have a life though lol).
    Do they make you sign anything in a court room?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    I have read plenty of completely fictional novels with lots of detail. Secondly,
    maybe John wasn't lying, maybe he was a character made up by one of the many many writers of the bible. Or maybe he was misquoted.
    "Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his cranium, poked out his right eye, broke both achilles tendons, and took a huge gash in the head from the stainless steel bucket that he was using to get the water" ......doesn't sound quite right. If He was lying, what purpose would those statements serve?


    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Also, babies start off as 1 cell.
    The DNA is Already set up when the cell is formed. That is an incomplexible( not able to be " evolved " ) piece of the puzzle in which God has set in place.
    Do you really want me to believe that our nervous system was just a mishap??? That brainwaves are a fluke? That the "order" in which we live just happened to be there? Think of a SCAR Script. If you switch around two procedures and you call a procedure before it is "declared" then you will get an UNKNOWN IDENTIFIER Error. Same thing here. Study the nervous system/look it up/ etc. It is far too complex to be " A Fluke" As well as the other functions in our body which were all just Flukes as well which go down a list of about o i dnt know 100 main organs or so... and that they all just seem to "Flukefully"(lol) work together to make us work in complete order, everything works exactly right?? Sounds very ludacris..

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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pwnaz0r View Post
    Not begin critical(purely my opinion don't want to start flaming) but it looks to me that these answers are ludicris
    No it's not ludicrous.


    Do they make you sign anything in a court room?
    You're missing the point. John, or any 'witness' in the bible is unreliable. Ever notice how there are many different versions of the bible, written and copied and changed by many different monks.

    "Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his cranium, poked out his right eye, broke both achilles tendons, and took a huge gash in the head from the stainless steel bucket that he was using to get the water" ......doesn't sound quite right. If He was lying, what purpose would those statements serve?
    Ahh now you've hit the nail on the head. What purpose does the bible serve?
    Is it an accurate historical document? No, even the vatican says stuff in the bible isn't true, due to irrefutable scientific evidence. The purpose of the bible is to keep little boys and girls (in sunday school, catholic school, and tucked in bed) following the rules of how to be a decent person. Most of the stories (thats what they are) in the bible have some sort of moral. God saying abracadabra and creating the earth and such is to 'demonstrate' his power, otherwise why would anyone listen. That's one of the reasons why monks have changed the bible over the years, changing/adding/removing stories to fit the morals they wanted to teach.



    The DNA is Already set up when the cell is formed. That is an incomplexible( not able to be " evolved " ) piece of the puzzle in which God has set in place.
    Do you look exactly like your family members? DNA can change, mutate. Green eyes are a mutation. DNA is a chain made of 4 building blocks, in different patterns (like binary code). It's a really long chain. Which can make really complex things with lots of characteristics. It's easy to change parts of the chain. Little by little, over a time period very few people can wrap their heads around. Isn't it weird how human DNA is 99.9% the same as chimp DNA?

    Actually, the fact that things are so complicated, is even more reason to believe that it was formed little by little, rather than in a snap of the fingers and a twitch of the nose.

    Do you really want me to believe that our nervous system was just a mishap??? That brainwaves are a fluke? That the "order" in which we live just happened to be there?
    No it's not a fluke. Evolution isn't completely random, like a tornado forming a plane. Mutations are random, teeny mutations. When they increase the chance of something living longer, it gets passed down through the generations more than those without. Which is why tigers deliberately have sharp teeth, etc.

    Think of a SCAR Script. If you switch around two procedures and you call a procedure before it is "declared" then you will get an UNKNOWN IDENTIFIER Error. Same thing here. Study the nervous system/look it up/ etc. It is far too complex to be " A Fluke" As well as the other functions in our body which were all just Flukes as well which go down a list of about o i dnt know 100 main organs or so... and that they all just seem to "Flukefully"(lol) work together to make us work in complete order, everything works exactly right?? Sounds very ludacris..
    Just because it's too complex for you to understand how it was formed (neither do I, and neurologists don't know everything yet), it doesn't mean it can't be formed that way. As I said before, it's not a fluke, it evolved that way for a reason. Also, again, the fact that it is so complex suggests evolving rather than being made all at once (out of clay??).

    Everything working exactly right is precisely why it ended up that way. And if god really did create it, he should have done a better job. The appendix?? Testicles on the outside?? Everything is quite messy.

    Organs are pretty complex, but on their basic level, they are quite simple. A filter. A sac of acid. A pump. Micro-organisms have similar functions.

    When the ancient Greeks (/Romans) didn't know that the earth revolving around the sun so that it appears as though the sun is moving across the sky, they made up the god Helios, who dragged the sun across the sky on his flaming horse driven chariot. Lightning bolts were Zeus getting angry/god bowling, rain is god pissing, etc etc. The human brain needs reasons for everything, which is why we have evolved to be smarter than animals, and are able to figure things out. If we don't know the reason, we make them up, to satisfy our brains without going crazy (where as other animals just accept that things happen). Plain and simple.

    Religions are made up to fill the need that people have for order and reason. I prefer science.

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    Let me ask you something Boreas

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Religions are made up to fill the need that people have for order and reason. I prefer science.
    Then what is Science doing in this situation if it's not doing that?





    I ran this script
    SCAR Code:
    program New;
    {.include srl/srl.scar}
    var H, Time1, Time2 : integer;
    Value : boolean;

    function AirPlane : integer;
    var I : integer;
    begin
    MarkTime(Time1);
    I := 0;
      repeat
      I := I + 1;
      result := Random(2000) * Random(2000) * Random(2000);
      until(i=100000)or(Result = 20000000)
      If(result = 100000)then
        begin
          Writeln(' Number Found!!');
          TerminateScript;
        end;
      if(i=100000)or(I<100000)then
        begin
          writeln(' Number not Found ');
          Value := false;
        end;
    end;

    function MilToSeconds : integer;
    begin
      result := Time1 /60000;
    end;

    function MilToSeconds2 : integer;
    begin
      result := Time2 /60000;
    end;

    function TryedTotal : integer;
    begin
    result := H * 100000;
    end;

    begin
    MarkTime(Time2);
    repeat
    H := H + 1;
    Airplane;
    Writeln(' Value is Still = ' + BoolToStr(Value));
    Writeln(' The Current Time is ' + (TheTime)  + '');
    Writeln(IntToStr(TryedTotal) + ' total times... ');
    until(False);
    end.

    and got this report
    SCAR Code:
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    Successfully compiled
     Number not Found
     Tryed 1Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 2Times.
     Number not Found
     Tryed 3Times.
    Successfully executed
    ^^^^ Thats over 20 million times it did that now i would bet my money that you can't say " Well yea that tornadoe put that airplane together " or " yea everything that ever existed that works perfectly together is like that because its randomly like that" and those aren't even near as big as the numbers would be. They would be much higher considering everything that ever existed put together in working order. Some astronimical number.

    Then Ran it 8.7 trillion times... guess what
    Number not found



    Now First of all, for your argument

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Again, people underestimate how big the universe is. If you had enough junkyards and tornadoes, it would happen eventually. But this is a really big number. People win the lottery, with a really small possibility of winning, but the thing is a lot of people play it that don't win. Just as there are a lot of stars without planets, a lot of planets not suitable for life etc etc.
    What does this have to do with the possiblities of that example? Plus to add to that , that was factored in
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post

    No it's not a fluke. Evolution isn't completely random, like a tornado forming a plane. Mutations are random, teeny mutations. When they increase the chance of something living longer, it gets passed down through the generations more than those without. Which is why tigers deliberately have sharp teeth, etc.
    Isn't Evolution made up of mutations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Same here, I just like finding holes
    These are not "Holes" you are finding, they are simply " suggestions " Such as

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Again, the ingredients for bigbang could have been there.
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    I have read plenty of completely fictional novels with lots of detail. Secondly, maybe John wasn't lying, maybe he was a character made up by one of the many many writers of the bible. Or maybe he was misquoted.
    See all the maybe's? Thats only two of your replies .
    I on the other hand have what you could at least " an argument " about the things we are made of being too complex. Basically everything you say is " Maybe " . Like i said I am basically trying to focus on my school life now(regualr subjects) so i havent had much time to look into it but when i find the time i'll get a website with people who have thoght this out and are better educated. Next time don't use any " maybe's " and see what you come up with :P

    Quote Originally Posted by A Website View Post
    ...the odds against DNA assembling by chance are 1040,000 to one [according to Fred Hoyle, Evolution from Space,1981]. This is true, but highly misleading. DNA did not assemble purely by chance. It assembled by a combination of chance and the laws of physics. Without the laws of physics as we know them, life on earth as we know it would not have evolved in the short span of six billion years. The nuclear force was needed to bind protons and neutrons in the nuclei of atoms; electromagnetism was needed to keep atoms and molecules together; and gravity was needed to keep the resulting ingredients for life stuck to the surface of the earth.
    --Victor J. Stenger

    Despite the fact that 99.99% of the scientific community considers evolution of species from other species to be a fact, the creation scientists proclaim that evolution is not a fact but just a theory, and that it is false. The vast majority of scientists who disagree about evolution disagree as to how species evolved, not as to whether they evolved.

    Scientific creationists are not impressed that they are in the minority. After all, they note, the entire scientific community has been wrong before. That is true. For example, at one time the geologists were all wrong about the origin of continents. They thought the earth was a solid object. Now they believe that the earth consists of plates. The theory of plate tectonics has replaced the old theory, which is now known to be false. However, when the entire scientific community has been proved to be wrong in the past it has been proved to be wrong by other scientists, not pseudoscientists. They have been proved wrong by others doing empirical investigation, not by others who begin with faith in a religious dogma and who see no need to do any empirical investigation to prove their theory. Erroneous scientific theories have been replaced by better theories, i.e., theories which explain more empirical phenomena and which increase our understanding of the natural world. Plate tectonics not only explained how continents can move, it also opened the door for a greater understanding of how mountain ranges form, how earthquakes are produced, how volcanoes are related to earthquakes, etc. Creationism is not a scientific alternative to natural selection any more than the stork theory is an alternative to sexual reproduction (Hayes 1996). The theory has not led and is unlikely ever to lead to a serious understanding of biological phenomena in the natural world.

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    Sry For the double post but i am running a script overnight to see if the result is ever true. So far about 78 Million times, always false..

    Trials Tryed Reports
    Modified from script in above...

    Some of these i hada go through the script and add up bc they integers in scar don't go that high

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Tryed 10000000( 10 million ) Times
    Number found = False
    Successfully executed

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Tryed 10000000( 10 million ) Times
    Number found = False
    Successfully executed

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Number found = False
    The Current Time is 03:10:59 am <<< ----------------------------
    236700000 total times...(263.7 Million times)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <<< Ran These Two At Same Time
    Number found = False
    The Current Time is 03:11:26 am <<< ----------------------------
    82600000 total times...(82.6 Million Times)
    `~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Value is Still = False
    The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
    3.1 billion total times...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Value is Still = False
    The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
    2.5 billion total times...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Value is Still = False
    The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
    3.5 billion total times...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Value is Still = False
    The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
    3.3 billion total times...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Value is Still = False
    The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
    4.9 billion total times...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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    Wow this is my first time looking through this thread and I am really pissed that I did not look into it... I have gone through and read 95 % of the posts.. I thought Tara pointed out some very good points along with Boreas.
    I personally was raised a Catholic and taught that God created everything and should thus be worshiped for everything (another topic, don't get me started) As soon as I was mature enough to start forming my own opinions based on my own reading and learning I realized that the possibility of a God creating this in a perfect sequence is unrealistic.. I do believe we are the result of evolution of bacteria. DNA is capable of mutation and that is how it has come to be as it is today that is the basis behind the idea of survival of the fittest. Forms of life evolve differently and those that are capable of living in the current environment live while others die off.
    I am stuck when it comes to who created it all, and I think this forever will be a mystery. Which came first the chicken or the egg? I see no ulterior motive to human life but to live and die.... Religion is just used to give a false sense of security to those expecting life after physicall death.

    Honestly if there is one thing you read out of my post I hope it is this, the most important thing to human life today. People believe in religion because it is a security for when they die.. They think since they believe in this there will be a heaven or hell or maybe 9 wives (joke or not..).. Ask a very religious person why they believe what they believe and tell me its not because there parents make them or they think they'll get eternal salvation.

    RELIGION = SELFISHNESS


    Too tired for now... I'm on this tomorrow though
    SUMMER BREAK be back when I want to

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    Wow i normally have to go to eleven communities to have debates and read other thoughts on questions like this. It amazing how much these points help with a 8,000 word essay for the evolution theory and concept of beyond death

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    As for chicken or the egg, that can be answered (assuming you believe in evolution and species variance lol). They should really change that expression to something that really can't be answered. Like how do you slam a revolving door? At one point, something between a chicken and dinosaur, that was extremely close to a chicken, but not a chicken, popped out an egg containing something slightly different, with a mutation, called a chicken. It's parents were not chickens, it was a chicken. The question is, what about the egg it hatched from? I assume the question is referring to a chicken egg, not caviar. So what is a chicken egg? Is it an egg that comes from a chicken, or an egg that contains a chicken? Look in your fridge, do those eggs contain chickens? I hope not. Yet they are still chicken eggs, because they came from a chicken. So the egg in between the slightly-not-chicken and the first chicken was not a chicken egg. The egg laid by the first chicken was though, and it was the first chicken egg, coming after the first chicken.


    Quote Originally Posted by pwnaz0r View Post
    Let me ask you something Boreas


    Then what is Science doing in this situation if it's not doing that?
    It is doing the same, except with better reasoning.

    I ran this script
    Why do random(2)*random(2) instead of random(4)? And why in the loop?

    ^^^^ Thats over 20 million times it did that now i would bet my money that you can't say " Well yea that tornadoe put that airplane together " or " yea everything that ever existed that works perfectly together is like that because its randomly like that" and those aren't even near as big as the numbers would be. They would be much higher considering everything that ever existed put together in working order. Some astronimical number.
    You still aren't getting it. It's not completely random. Part of it is, which bothers people who need a story/explanation for everything, see the helios example. The rest comes down to survival of the fittest, and physics concepts such as gravity, magnetism, and valence electrons.

    Now First of all, for your argument

    What does this have to do with the possiblities of that example? Plus to add to that , that was factored in
    It means that just because something has a small chance of happening by itself, it doesn't mean there has to be an all powerful being to get things done.

    Isn't Evolution made up of mutations?
    Still not getting it. Maybe you should read Origin of Species as well as the stuff they feed you in private school. Mutations are random. Which mutations get passed on (ie EVOLVE) is not random. If it helps, it gets passed on to the next generation. Which is why the complex body works together. It's not like taking a bunch of lego bricks in a bucket and throwing them on the floor into a building all at once.

    These are not "Holes" you are finding, they are simply " suggestions " Such as


    and


    See all the maybe's? Thats only two of your replies .
    I am saying maybe to demonstrate the possibilities of things that could have happened besides the stuff that you accept to be true when told.

    I on the other hand have what you could at least " an argument " about the things we are made of being too complex.
    Think about it. Being complex is actually a point on my side lol. Ask fawki if he wrote Ratz all at once.

    Like i said I am basically trying to focus on my school life now(regualr subjects) so i havent had much time to look into it but when i find the time i'll get a website with people who have thoght this out and are better educated.
    And if I had the time I could find just as many sites written by scientists.

    Basically everything you say is " Maybe " .
    Next time don't use any " maybe's " and see what you come up with :P
    You under estimate the power of maybe. The power of thinking for yourself, outside the box. The power of not accepting what you are told as true just because you were raised/schooled that way. The power of looking into others reasoning, whether it supports your preconceived beliefs or not. Having strong beliefs is good, having blinders is not. I rest my case.



    offtopic: I just noticed that christian republicans like jesus but hate hippies....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    You under estimate the power of maybe. The power of thinking for yourself, outside the box. The power of not accepting what you are told as true just because you were raised/schooled that way. The power of looking into others reasoning, whether it supports your preconceived beliefs or not. Having strong beliefs is good, having blinders is not. I rest my case.
    Wow you have summed up my point of view completely! We are given the ability to see, feel, smell, talk, and think all on our own! With these abilities it is our responsibility to determine our own opinions and views of life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    It is doing the same, except with better reasoning.
    What is reasoning but a humans ability to understand and interpret?If you will just assume for one minute that there was a God, wouldn't you think that he would have to put limits somewhere on how much the human brain's capacity to understand?That is basically my point exactly, reasoning is unreliable because it is only a human using his/her mind to Try to understand...
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Why do random(2)*random(2) instead of random(4)? And why in the loop?
    The randoms because that is about the possiblitly of the universe coming together by itself and the loops to show how many time in a row it wouldn't find that number.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    You still aren't getting it. It's not completely random. Part of it is, which bothers people who need a story/explanation for everything, see the helios example. The rest comes down to survival of the fittest, and physics concepts such as gravity, magnetism, and valence electrons.
    Mutations must have some factor of randomness or else i can't see how you could think that our complexe organs, nervous system, and ability to comprehend could come from an ape. How do you think they catch apes? The put a banana or fruit in a log and when the animal goes to get it. he can't take his hand out of the hole. He is too stupid to know that if he doesn't take his hand out of that log, and these people are coming at him with a net, that he's going to get caught. Another thing. If you asked any evolutionist, do you think he would say that animals have " a soul ". Probably not. If you believe that you don't have " a soul " then you're crazy because humans have the ability to make their own decisions and they know who they are. On the other hand, apes and any other animals act on pure instinct.If we evolved from apes, where did language come from? In my opinion, there is no way that a complex, orderly system of communitcation with nouns, verbs, and all 8 parts of speech could be thought up by a very uncomplex organism. And if we are going deep into this, how did early humans know how to reproduce??
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If You're not old enough please do Not read below.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Did they say hey, I'll put this here and do certain things and then maybe in 8-10 months another one of us will pop out? Totally " unreasonable" to me.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    It means that just because something has a small chance of happening by itself, it doesn't mean there has to be an all powerful being to get things done.
    True but like i said before. Nothing Happens because of nothing. Now i have heard the comment " O well if you're going to say that " God " was there at the begining then you might as well say that matter or the universe was. Not so. God is considered not "matter" thus he did not need to be made. Again God has put limited knowledge or capacity on the human brain, so he has not revealed why this happened as it did. Matter on the other hand must be created by something. Otherwise, Humans would create Bombs on different countrys by just thinking about it. That would be a disaster. You cannot just think or try to make an airplane appear. It would have to be made out of materials made by the earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    I am saying maybe to demonstrate the possibilities of things that could have happened besides the stuff that you accept to be true when told.
    I do not accept anything that is a " maybe " in my mind. You are stating them so I decided to point them out. BTW I was not forced in this decision to believe in God in anyway. I decided it for myself. I knew that when I looked at everything that the world has, it could not be there by accident. If there was matter before everything, how could say Hyndrogen " evolve" into H20. Where was gravity made. Why when you drop something does it hit the ground evry single time, no questions asked. If you were asked to bet 1 million dollars that a cup would hit the ground if you dropped it, would you do it. Of course you would. You would be a million dollars richer too. An evolutionist on the other hand, using all the " maybe's " that he does would have to say " maybe that cup won't hit the ground" to stick to his theory of Darwinism. Yet they wouldn't say that because that would be ludicris, thus they are contridicting themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Think about it. Being complex is actually a point on my side lol. Ask fawki if he wrote Ratz all at once.
    Fawki was the " intellegent designer" of ratz, thus proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    And if I had the time I could find just as many sites written by scientists.
    I bet they would use alot of maybe's...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    You under estimate the power of maybe. The power of thinking for yourself, outside the box. The power of not accepting what you are told as true just because you were raised/schooled that way. The power of looking into others reasoning, whether it supports your preconceived beliefs or not. Having strong beliefs is good, having blinders is not. I rest my case.
    I do not underestimate the power of maybe. I would not however bet that the same number would pop up out of a hat 1000 times in a row. Yet i may bet it did once.Also, outside of the box is exactly not what you are doing. You are thinking of everything in you're " logic ". And as i stated before, I did look into other religions/beliefs, this is my chosen path.

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    I think it's funny that evolutionists start out by saying things like "Anything is possible", or "given billions of years, wildly unlikely things are likely to occur."

    But then when it comes down to putting forward a rational theory, the first thing they reject are the wildly unlikely coincidences.

    So when it comes to defending the possibility of evolution, they are first in line to defend statistically impossible odds, but when it comes time to put on their scientist hat and actually attempt to explain it that is the first thing out the door.

    Another of the many hypocrisies of Evolution science.

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    Well for me it's more of the idea that God is a possibility. I believe mainly that god is a possibility because it's called "Faith" Something that you have to believe in. Another reason i say it's a possibility is because of the evidence that god is real. However, I don't think that everything went down as the bible says it did.

    However other things seem more likely, this is mainly because other things are easier to grasp. One thing I don't care for is the idea that if a Killer kills someone and he repents (Truly repents) that he can still go to heaven. If you take someones life you should never be rewarded (Well there are some exceptions which I'm sure someone will point out after reading my post).

    This is just a little of my thoughts. Bash if you must, I truly don't care.

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    The thought of a heaven or hell is whole other side of this but I would just like to ask some of you out there one thing. I don't see the idea of heaven or hell as rational, eternal happiness? I mean I just don't see a heaven as this, I would rather accept the idea that there is another dimension in which you go to. But I just don't understand the idea of an eternity of boredom..Basically if everything is perfect then nothing is fun and enjoyable .. If you can understand that..
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    Makes sense and i guess that's right, or maybe everything is more enjoyable some how. XD

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    If you have never known pain and suffering, you can never know pleasure or true happiness. I think that is one MAJOR reason why we are here. To experience some of that pain and suffering so that we can truly appreciate the joy that can be found in the next life.

    There is a saying in Buddhism something to the effect of "If you are born into an explosion, what do you hear?" And the answer is nothing. It means that you develop a baseline based on your experience. If all you ever know is pain and hardship, you can't know what joy is, and vice versa.

    My favorite verse in all of scripture is 1 John 4:8. If ye know not love, ye know not God, for God is love.

    That sums up everything I have just written very nicely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlsa View Post
    Well for me it's more of the idea that God is a possibility. I believe mainly that god is a possibility because it's called "Faith" Something that you have to believe in. Another reason i say it's a possibility is because of the evidence that god is real. However, I don't think that everything went down as the bible says it did.

    However other things seem more likely, this is mainly because other things are easier to grasp. One thing I don't care for is the idea that if a Killer kills someone and he repents (Truly repents) that he can still go to heaven. If you take someones life you should never be rewarded (Well there are some exceptions which I'm sure someone will point out after reading my post).

    This is just a little of my thoughts. Bash if you must, I truly don't care.
    If you believe in the Bible, which I can tell is not your case, Jesus would have paid the ultamite price for you on the cross so everyone deserves to go to hell (sad sad truth)

    Quote Originally Posted by whales View Post
    The thought of a heaven or hell is whole other side of this but I would just like to ask some of you out there one thing. I don't see the idea of heaven or hell as rational, eternal happiness? I mean I just don't see a heaven as this, I would rather accept the idea that there is another dimension in which you go to. But I just don't understand the idea of an eternity of boredom..Basically if everything is perfect then nothing is fun and enjoyable .. If you can understand that..

    not at all what the Bible says ( eternal boredom ). Eternal hapiness and eternal boredom are two different things. Boredom will not be a part of your existence there. You will probably not even know what it is. Think of the best thing you have ever done multiply it by 1000000 and you wont even be there( that is if you believe as you should )

    Quote Originally Posted by tarajunky View Post
    If you have never known pain and suffering, you can never know pleasure or true happiness. I think that is one MAJOR reason why we are here. To experience some of that pain and suffering so that we can truly appreciate the joy that can be found in the next life.

    There is a saying in Buddhism something to the effect of "If you are born into an explosion, what do you hear?" And the answer is nothing. It means that you develop a baseline based on your experience. If all you ever know is pain and hardship, you can't know what joy is, and vice versa.

    My favorite verse in all of scripture is 1 John 4:8. If ye know not love, ye know not God, for God is love.

    That sums up everything I have just written very nicely.
    I take your a christian

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    Edit: Sry meant to press edit not quote

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    I believe that god created Adam and Eve and thats how it all began. the reason why the majority of society believe in the theory of evolution is because that is what their teachers tell them and thats what is on TV but if you pay close attention to all that it dose not explain it from the beging and certain critical details.

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