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Thread: Arguments for God's Existance

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by pwnaz0r View Post
    Actually it does yes. I actually spend most of my time disproving evolution, because nobody ever lets me prove anything.

    Ok facts about the universe I stand on for my beliefs:

    If you don't know what these are (talking to anyone who claims they do know about evolution, not the innocent bystander ), then, and this is in no way meant to be prideful, but as they say "stand down", and let the people who have devoted at least some time and attention to this the "stand". I think it is unfair for you to side if you have no knowledge of these things, considering I have devoted 2 years of my life (on the side of course), studying and concluding.

    - Fine Tuned Universe, if you don't know the facts for this, google. There are too many to list here, however there will be one on my thread.
    - Most scientists of both parties conclude that the big bang occured and everything we know of was created. Matter, energy, etc was all created. I choose to belief the ludicris statement and mindset that it happened by itself. This brings us to the watch in the desert. No one looks at that watch and says "Well the sun must have melted the sand to create glass and over millions of years it was formed perfectly and then the mechanisms"etc, etc. No you say, wow what a beautiful watch, I wonder who made it. Its rediculous (misspelled). How much more mechanisms does the universe have, more than 500 billion times more.
    - The Cambrian explosion. Where did all those life forms come from. Its like if we compare darwins tree of life to a foot ball field. On the 10 yardline, there is one animal, on the 20 y-l, there is 2... then we get the 90 yardline and suddenly there and a million...
    - Human conscienceness in itself. Where did morals come from, who determines right from wrong..
    - Irreducible Complexity


    There must be about at least 10 other major things but I won't list them here. And on top of that, let's cut to the chase.. In two years of study of the subject from both angles, I have not found one scientific fact that is true about evolution not one. The fossil record supporting it has been disproved, if you think it hasn't you should claim ignorance now, because you haven't been keeping up to date. And on top of that, I have seen so many experiments conducted wrong (Miller - Urey experiment), and so many lies by scientists (Heckels drawings). AND ON TOP OF THAT, I have not found one person who has adequatly researched it as far as me, IN MY OPINION. If you are out there, please step forward. AND ON TOP OF THAT, this is personal for me. I see God's action in my own life. My family was recently struggling financial. We prayed for the longest time for how we would get the money to keep me in school. What happened? My dad's bank had been in a bind with the US economy down and since he hung in there, they sent him a check with just enough money to send me there the next year, about 2 days before. You may call this coinicidence but I have a thousand more and not kidding a thousand. When you interact with God on such a level as this, it is impossible to tell yourself he is not real, and that's why I'm so passionate about this, because I want others to understand what I see.

    EDIT: I absolutely get annoyed because so many evolutionists have a bias that theists have no reason for believing what they believe and that science absolutely proves evolution, no exceptions. WRONG
    Evolution does not just consist out of theories on the initial creation of the earth. I think those theories are far from accurate, because we simply don't know enough about the universe yet. Believing god made it however, is in my opinion ignorant and will never lead you to the real answer, which you will able to proof with facts. I choose not to believe any of these theories, as the one is ever more implausible than the other.

    What I meant is that, you can't simply say something is true because some book claims it to be that way. I wouldn't even take it from a scientist, unless more than the majority of the scientist agrees with him (or her), and the scientist can come up with enough realistic arguments and facts.

    About your personal experience, let me just say this.
    If God exists, I find him very selfish helping you, instead of all the hungry children and grown-up's in Africa. It is plain unjust, and wrong.
    Doesn't everyone deserve a fine life?

    If God should only help people who pray/worship to him, I find him very selfish, and furthermore, hypocritical.

    If an atheist lives a good live, does not rape, hurt or harm people, why does he have to go to this place called the 'hell'? Because he did not 'pray'?
    Why can people (in some western-beliefs) donate some money to the church, pray once and pay off all their sins? Why is it very regular for priests to do "funny" things with children?
    Why doesn't this God person strike the persons whom we all consider, bad. (Murderers, Thieves, Rapists, etc.) Why does this 'God' person let them wander around and go on with their daily business?

    I could go on, but I won't. I think I've made my point, at least, for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceFire908 View Post
    So in other words, you're asking for God to come tell you himself that he is real?
    Yes. And explain why he let's so many people suffer and die, while others live a life in luxury. (I call any house with water and electricity luxury.)



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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post
    Evolution does not just consist out of theories on the initial creation of the earth. I think those theories are far from accurate, because we simply don't know enough about the universe yet. Believing god made it however, is in my opinion ignorant and will never lead you to the real answer, which you will able to proof with facts. I choose not to believe any of these theories, as the one is ever more implausible than the other.

    What I meant is that, you can't simply say something is true because some book claims it to be that way. I wouldn't even take it from a scientist, unless more than the majority of the scientist agrees with him (or her), and the scientist can come up with enough realistic arguments and facts.

    About your personal experience, let me just say this.
    If God exists, I find him very selfish helping you, instead of all the hungry children and grown-up's in Africa. It is plain unjust, and wrong.
    Doesn't everyone deserve a fine life?

    If God should only help people who pray/worship to him, I find him very selfish, and furthermore, hypocritical.

    If an atheist lives a good live, does not rape, hurt or harm people, why does he have to go to this place called the 'hell'? Because he did not 'pray'?
    Why can people (in some western-beliefs) donate some money to the church, pray once and pay off all their sins? Why is it very regular for priests to do "funny" things with children?
    Why doesn't this God person strike the persons whom we all consider, bad. (Murderers, Thieves, Rapists, etc.) Why does this 'God' person let them wander around and go on with their daily business?

    I could go on, but I won't. I think I've made my point, at least, for now.



    Yes. And explain why he let's so many people suffer and die, while others live a life in luxury. (I call any house with water and electricity luxury.)
    God is in fact a jealous God, and has a right to be selfish. This is a hard point to explain but think about it. For humans, yes selfishness is wrong, but not God. He created everything. You are basing God's character on human standards, which is completely out of line, you are completely ignoring all other points and are in general basing your beliefs on morals. where did you get those??? Accordign to darwin, "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST". According to atheists, or evolutionists (maybe not all atheists), let them die! survival of the fittest. I believe pain is God's megaphone to the world. It's not unfair for to be selfish because everything is his. It's actually a quite hard concept to grasp unless you accept that there is a God. The fault in atheists, or why they will burn in hell, or because they think that they are just as good as God. They say, hey I don't need a God, because in my imperfect ways, I can explain a God, as they haven't! God made one rule, that man must accept him, and what did man do? complain...complain...complain... even when they would not even be here to complain without him. We are imperfect is the main point. God is a just God, and if you just obey Him, you will be fine. Also, those people in Africa, thats not God's fault it's ours. He gave us the commandment to give to the poor, and us the commandment to take care of your neighbor. How can we do that with a world so cold. Which brings us to just one of athiests circular reasonings.

    People starving ---> God's fault ---> I shouldn't believe in him ---> I shouldn't do what he says --> People starving still.

    God is not a genie in a bottle so to say. He also must abide by his own rules

    Point being, stop blaming God for everything, we did this by ourselves. When you play the game of the universe with God involved, its a whole different set of rules. God has a right to be jealous, and we all deserve to go to Hell. He has been gracious to give us a second chance. We did this to ourselves, not God.

    EDIT: I am ashamed of the catholic churchs behavior and beliefs, however this is only an arguement for Intellegent Design, you cannot group all religions as one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pwnaz0r View Post
    God is in fact a jealous God, and has a right to be selfish. This is a hard point to explain but think about it. For humans, yes selfishness is wrong, but not God. He created everything. You are basing God's character on human standards, which is completely out of line, you are completely ignoring all other points and are in general basing your beliefs on morals. where did you get those??? Accordign to darwin, "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST". According to atheists, or evolutionists (maybe not all atheists), let them die! survival of the fittest. I believe pain is God's megaphone to the world. It's not unfair for to be selfish because everything is his. It's actually a quite hard concept to grasp unless you accept that there is a God. The fault in atheists, or why they will burn in hell, or because they think that they are just as good as God. They say, hey I don't need a God, because in my imperfect ways, I can explain a God, as they haven't! God made one rule, that man must accept him, and what did man do? complain...complain...complain... even when they would not even be here to complain without him. We are imperfect is the main point. God is a just God, and if you just obey Him, you will be fine. Also, those people in Africa, thats not God's fault it's ours. He gave us the commandment to give to the poor, and us the commandment to take care of your neighbor. How can we do that with a world so cold. Which brings us to just one of athiests circular reasonings.
    Okay. So, how do you know God made one rule? How do you know God cares about you? How do you know God wants us to obey him? How do you know God is good, how can you even compare him to humans?
    You could just as easily tell me God invented tea, because there is simply no proof whatsoever, that supports what you just said.
    The bible? Written by humans. Flawed, and has been changed (partially rewritten) many times through history. So, you could say that the Human Mind invented God.

    Quote Originally Posted by pwnaz0r View Post
    EDIT: I am ashamed of the catholic churchs behavior and beliefs, however this is only an arguement for Intellegent Design, you cannot group all religions as one.
    Which I never did. (in some western-beliefs)

    Quote Originally Posted by pwnaz0r View Post
    People starving ---> God's fault ---> I shouldn't believe in him ---> I shouldn't do what he says --> People starving still.

    God is not a genie in a bottle so to say. He also must abide by his own rules

    Point being, stop blaming God for everything, we did this by ourselves. When you play the game of the universe with God involved, its a whole different set of rules. God has a right to be jealous, and we all deserve to go to Hell. He has been gracious to give us a second chance. We did this to ourselves, not God.
    After reading this, I am convinced that I will not be able to convince you of anything religion related at all. You can make up a nice story in your post, but you back it up with nothing, nil. You simply write down what you think, believe or something that has been written by humans. (God's only rule...?) Which is fine though, as long as you can live happily with those thoughts. There won't be anything after this live, anyway.

    I am done. This leads (me) to nowhere, and I am only wasting my time writing these posts.
    EDIT: I believe God has a female-like shape. Why is this abstract creature always referred to as 'He'? Does God have a penis?
    EDIT2: I enjoyed reading your posts and opinion, I just don't agree with them.



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  4. #304
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    You say that "it's God and therefor you are basing your accusations on nothing because you are thinking like a human and cannot comprehend God" and then you go on to defend him and talk about what God wants and how God loves you. If we cannot comprehend how God thinks and what God wants then how can you do anything "in the name of God" an whatnot because you really have no idea what God wants because since you believe "he wants" to give us free will he will not interfere. Which is another contradiction since people thank him every day for helping them in one way or another.

    are in general basing your beliefs on morals.
    as are you. Your morals are based upon what the Church tells you. It has been drilled into you since birth. what makes the Bible a valid, factual book?

    The only reason that Christianity is a valid religion is because it has people backing it up. Most people wouldnt even consider Christianity if it only had 10 people practicing it. I tried explaining this to my mom. That if Pastafarianism was the most prominent religion in the world and that her parents were Pastafarians, then she also would (very likely) be a Pastafarian. That she would completely disregard Christianity because it was a silly made up religion. She disagreed and told me that God would make sure she was a Christian and that she was destined to be one. People are brought up that way.

    I know you are much less...biased i guess i would say...than her, but thats how many people think. and now that i read this third part i find that it doesnt really have all that much of a point , but ill leave it, because it took me a while to write and i think it still serves a purpose .

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    I liked talking about the scientific side of religion much much more...

    My religion is solid and we all sorta believe in the exact same things. The Catholic church did muck up heaps think about the first crusade. What they did to trick all the knights into going to battle against the muslims. And in the bible itself Jesus said "you must love your enemy". So that kinda made the whole crusade pointless in terms of religion. So actually I think religion has caused more wars than it has resolved them.

    There are many things science can't explaine but science is still as effective as ever and is explaining so much every day.

    Never take away the possibility that god exists though.

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    I feel like I'm way too uneducated for this conversation.. But...

    I always look at science like this: We always peel back the current layer of science and try to prove how it occurs, why it occurs, etc. But, we never have found the origin of all these things. The Big Bang; did it just pop out of nowhere? The human brain; where do our thoughts come from?

    Now I believe that science is true. I mean, we have pretty well proved a lot of "life's mysteries". However, I doubt that science will ever come to point where it can define the origin of something. The only origin seems to be: God

    Just my 2 cents...

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    Someone explain to me the idea of the 'soul', and how evolutionists can account for it? Scientists have created clones, but they cannot clone the human soul. They don't even know what keeps the skin moist, and they admit it's the working of the soul. Tell me, then, how God can not be existent,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post
    Yes. And explain why he let's so many people suffer and die, while others live a life in luxury. (I call any house with water and electricity luxury.)
    idk, well for starters : why do you assume God even gives a fuck? you really think God cares if some insignificant humans think their lifes are unfair?

    Just curious man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infintry001 View Post
    I feel like I'm way too uneducated for this conversation.. But...

    I always look at science like this: We always peel back the current layer of science and try to prove how it occurs, why it occurs, etc. But, we never have found the origin of all these things. The Big Bang; did it just pop out of nowhere? The human brain; where do our thoughts come from
    Just my 2 cents...
    The idea of the big bang started when we figured there was to much helium in the sun for the universe just to be created by a massive cloud of hydrogen. So something with enough energy could create all that helium and thats when we came up with the idea of the big bang...

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    But if the Big Bang was the creation of the universe, what was there beforehand that could make it happen?

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    Thats were god comes in, and don't think as time as a constant.

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    Weird how everytime I say something, no-one answers.
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    Are you trying to say... If I destroy myself but someone recreates me exactly the same as I was before, I wouldn't be myself or it wouldn't feel like it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by newbiezkid View Post
    Are you trying to say... If I destroy myself but someone recreates me exactly the same as I was before, I wouldn't be myself or it wouldn't feel like it?
    No...I want to know how scientists believe that humans have a soul, yet they believe this soul was also created by science alone, and without God.
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    Link me up to where you found this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newbiezkid View Post
    Link me up to where you found this.
    Don't tell me you're denying the existence of a soul.
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    I want to know where you found that theoritcal physicist believe in the soul. Im not denying it.

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    Scientists as scientists cannot believe in the soul. Its not possible to have one (scientificly).

    However, I'm sure that scientists as normal people surely believe in the soul =)

    That's what I always thought is strange about science. It can't prove things that everyone knows is there. They can't prove how thought works, why we feel emotion, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newbiezkid View Post
    I want to know where you found that theoritcal physicist believe in the soul. Im not denying it.
    It was in a book, the name of which I can't recall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post
    Okay. So, how do you know God made one rule? How do you know God cares about you? How do you know God wants us to obey him? How do you know God is good, how can you even compare him to humans?
    You could just as easily tell me God invented tea, because there is simply no proof whatsoever, that supports what you just said.
    The bible? Written by humans. Flawed, and has been changed (partially rewritten) many times through history. So, you could say that the Human Mind invented God.



    Which I never did. (in some western-beliefs)



    After reading this, I am convinced that I will not be able to convince you of anything religion related at all. You can make up a nice story in your post, but you back it up with nothing, nil. You simply write down what you think, believe or something that has been written by humans. (God's only rule...?) Which is fine though, as long as you can live happily with those thoughts. There won't be anything after this live, anyway.

    I am done. This leads (me) to nowhere, and I am only wasting my time writing these posts.
    EDIT: I believe God has a female-like shape. Why is this abstract creature always referred to as 'He'? Does God have a penis?
    EDIT2: I enjoyed reading your posts and opinion, I just don't agree with them.
    As do I . However, whenever we go from scientific fact to moral things like everything you are asking, doesn't that mean we are focusing on GOd's essence and being. I will admit not to know everything about Him, however, I do not think minds are fully capable of comprehending everything because we are all comfined by our own minds limits.

    However, In my opinion, and just be honest, not prideful. Are you not up against a wall because you are not stating any scientific facts to back up anything nor refuting any of mine, you are just contemplating things about God's nature with me, which I get all my reasoning from the Bible. However, If you would like to discuss this, we can. I however am just making a case for a creator, not neccissarily that my view is right.

    Yes humans wrote the Bible, but God influenced every single word. The Bible has never been partially rewritten. Parts have been taken out, during a meeting of over 500 common theists. However, when this meeting occured they translated the Bible from Greek (or latin :P one of the two), into english. All 350 of them came within 5 words or so throughout the whole Bible. Now think of how long the Bible is, can you really believe that 350 people all did this and came within 5 words (and the 5 words were not even significant, liek the)

    I personally know that God cares because of what the Bible says (which He did influence, he would not let His word be corrupted. Remember that very Godly men wrote the Bible.) and because of Jesus, who did die on the cross and did raise. I can prove that by a few reasons, but you will actually have to use reason. It might not be as strong an arguement as I have for I.D., but it holds for me, because I was already past the point I knew there was a creator when I started looking at religions. So I looked within them and this was the strongest. However, I will not discuss that here on the thread, seeing as whenever you go from being a Intellegent Designist, to a Christian, alot of people jump on you. So if you want those reasons, just for knowledge why I do believe in Christianity, feel free to PM me

    EDIT: I also know God cares because of the example I gave earlier and many more. Use knowledge, my friend. Why would He create us if he didn't want us there. If He was going to hate us, he might as well not create us at all.


    EDIT 2: Dan, I have to say that I actually did laugh at the second half of your post. It is so biased in one direction and it most certainly is not beacked up with any facts and misinterprets my whole thought basis and religion.

    However, I do think Inifitry has the idea

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    REPLY to DAN (sorry for double post, didn't think it would be a huge deal, just want to seperate responses)

    I did not say that we cannot comprehend God at all, I just said things like eternity. Man did not create Infinity. He did not, the idea has always been there, where did it come from. As far as you and I know, it has always been there. It is in time, it is in the number line, going one way, going the negative way, and going every single number in between. Can you and I really comprehend what that means? No, we cannot. Whenever I think of being in heaven forever, or being anywhere forever, its really actually hard to comprehend, just try it.

    So basically here is what yours and mines arguement (dan) has looked like:

    - You asked for scientific proofs, I gave you them.
    - I asked you for one thing true about evolution, you replied it was a theory.
    - You start to question the actual religious side of this, which is very sticky, because when you don't even believe in a God and you go here, I hate it, because you always can find something wrong with it, and I have to explain that you have to believe in a God first to understand why. Its a really tight spot, not that we don't have the information, but because we reply to it in reference to a God, which is the answer we believe, and you say well I don't believe there is a God, so that can't be true.
    - I have seen you repeated use circular reasoning.

    Look at all the evidence, my friend, where does it point? Think of all the scientific points I gave you. Irreducible complexity, fine tunings and such. let's get back to the science part here, and once you establish that there is even a possiblity for a God, then we can discuss things like morals and such. We are officially focusing on scientific proofs only, which is what you claim backs up your theory and the only thing you operate by anyway.

    Which brings me to another question, why do you (and Wizzup) feel the need to try to question God's character? I though science backed up your theory? It seems to me, and probably all the other creationalists involved, that you are running out of scientific evidence, which is what you claim drives your mindset, so you are desperate and have to ask things about God's nature that we are not really capable of understanding.


    ONE LAST THING TO WIZZUP AND DAN:

    Why doesn't God just let us comprehend Him? If we could, what would make Him higher than us? Ever single time I think of God, and things that He can do that I can't understand, I say "WOW what an amazing God". It is a constant reminder that God has authority over us and is not equal to us. That is your answer, do not reply to it, because we are only focusing on science now.

    To any one who wants scientific proof or things to answer for me, http://www.srl-forums.com/forum/show...00&postcount=7

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    as i said, the second part wasnt meant to be factual or conclusive. I just meant it as an example of what i think many Christians think and have as reasoning for their belief in God. Along with the fact that i am very bad at explaining things, especially in writing.

    Though i think that pretty much anything that you can come up with to "prove" that Jesus even existed, let alone die on the cross, will be fairly biased as well.
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    No, I try my best not to be biased, and I comment on it when I am. These reasons, are not biased. They have to do with witnesses that saw him, reasons the roman guards would want to keep it quiet, all the stories about the body, because it is not and will never be in the tomb, so there are many stories about it. I prove all of those stories wrong. It is then your decision to decide if the man, who did in fact perform miraculous works, whether you think he is God or not,for it is not just in the Bible, and all that stuff I said together combined means that he did arise from the cross. Without actually being there, I don't think we can gain much more proof?

    Beside the point though, you did not respond to anything, like that, so I guess I will just wait for Wizzup?, or anybody else to respond to two posts up.

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    i didn't see your post above mine. I was writing my previous reply when you posted, i assume.


    in our msn argument, as i remember it, all i was given as proof was (i think) cambrian explosion(i think i deemed that theoretical). Then we went into less scientific areas. and then you tried using Fine-Tuned Universe. I told you i didnt quite understand that, and you stopped talking to me .

    The problem with arguing with you is that you seem to be a little hypocritical (at least on msn you are). You want scientific facts and then you ask me about where morals came from. Then when im trying to explain things, you tell me that i ask too many questions without answering any of yours. You seem to be the one asking most of the questions. So the argument becomes lopsided. You'll probably come up with something else to tell me im the one who's being hypocritical, so i think i'm going to stop arguing. As people have told you before(i think/hope), this argument is a moo point. Its like a cow's opinion. It doesnt matter.....it's moo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cardin View Post
    i didn't see your post above mine. I was writing my previous reply when you posted, i assume.


    in our msn argument, as i remember it, all i was given as proof was (i think) cambrian explosion(i think i deemed that theoretical). Then we went into less scientific areas. and then you tried using Fine-Tuned Universe. I told you i didnt quite understand that, and you stopped talking to me .

    The problem with arguing with you is that you seem to be a little hypocritical (at least on msn you are). You want scientific facts and then you ask me about where morals came from. Then when im trying to explain things, you tell me that i ask too many questions without answering any of yours. You seem to be the one asking most of the questions. So the argument becomes lopsided. You'll probably come up with something else to tell me im the one who's being hypocritical, so i think i'm going to stop arguing. As people have told you before(i think/hope), this argument is a moo point. Its like a cow's opinion. It doesnt matter.....it's moo.
    I thought it was spelled "moot"? '

    And btw, this whole conversation is very interesting =)

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