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Thread: Arguments for God's Existance

  1. #26
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    anyway, there really is no point to this arguing, obviously nobody is swaying the other side. I'm out.

  2. #27
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    sigh. I don't even know where to begin. I've already pretty much ended. I supose all there is left to do is disprove the people who think they are proving something.

    Yakman, i think you have said this twice now, so it must be pretty critical to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by yakman
    [person on judgement day]and they are saying "I'm sorry God, i tried to believe in you, i really tried, but i just couldn't"
    I am not sure what you are trying to prove here... Perhaps sujesting religion is unjust to people who are unable to believe? Or perhaps saying that all a religion is about is believing. Still not sure what your getting at, but I can give you an answer to your question. I actually prayed about it and this is what I felt. I know that God will never expect you to do something you are incapable of. And I know that God is 100% just, therefore, if this scenario that you describe does happen, then they would be accepted into heaven with open arms. However, I think that anyone with a soul is capable in beliving. Granted, beliving in things not seen is hard, but I think it is possible by everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by isjusme
    there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose,
    Please think about how weak your argument is before you say it. 500 people that I have no reason to trust. We are talking around 2000 years ago where the only record is documents that have defanitly been tampered with. We are talking uber weak proof.

    and yakman is 100% right, the bible in itself is not right. The people who wrote and re-wrote it all had agendas and bias of their own. If you don't read it with insight you have a pretty good risk of getting garbage out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robot
    His whole post
    Yes! Thank you, 100% on the dot. Ftw. Everyone else, read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by isjusme
    anyway, there really is no point to this arguing, obviously nobody is swaying the other side. I'm out.
    yep, you get it too, gz.
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    there is a lot of point in arguing,
    it helps your formulate your ideas, and to think about life more critically,
    also it helps to rally people who agree with you, just in case they feel like giving up, it can help them when they remember there are others like them.

    and occasionally, very occasionally, people do change their religion because of it,
    please dont go around saying, "all of this is pointness, no-one ever changed their mind", they do, I've seen it happen,
    and changing people's mind isnt the only reason to debate


    @R0b0t, you say there is no proof either side, that doesnt mean the debate should just stop,
    there are many things that have no "proof" either way, in those cases, you look for arguments for and against,

    for example, theres the idea that gases are made up of a large number of particles, with relatively large amounts of empty space between them.
    there is no proof either way for this idea, but you can construct convincing arguments for and against,
    an argument for, is that you can compress a gas a lot,
    an argument against, is that this compression could just mean the particles are very soft,

    probably the only time you'll find actual proof for something is in mathematical theorems, like actual proof that there is an infinite amount of prime numbers.

    so lets come up with convincing arguments for and against the existence of god.
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    im not that good at debating and probably will get torn apart, but here i go anyways.

    First, lets get the cold, hard facts down because I know you guys like those. Historically there really was a man named Jesus Christ. This has been proven. He went around preaching saying he was the Son of God and starting his own ministry. He was also put to death on the cross, for not denying he was the Son of God. He was put to death with 2 other people on each side of him, they were theifs, getting put to death. I forgot the number but a TON of people went to Jesus's tomb 3 days earlier, and there was no body. This would explain that he rose to Heaven and would come back.

    Now, on to what i believe and when i tell you you wont believe me anyways, but whatever. My dad had a friend who died twice on the operating table from a heart attack. The doctors brought him back alive both times, he was dead for 10 minutes total. He told me that he went to Heaven. He told me that God and Jesus looked " like they were from Jerlusum(sp?)". Dark skinned etc. He told me everyone was getting along etc and it was beautiful.

    it is also faith. When i pray i know there is someone there watching over me, i can feel it. The Bible is also a very interesting book, heres an internet verison. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=6&version=31
    i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.
    "For it is not what goes into your mouth that will defile you; rather, it is what comes out of your mouth that defiles you." - Jesus of Nazareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by isjusme View Post
    there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

    I don't know where you got, Just for the sake of believing in it. Maybe i worded something wrong without noticing, too lazy to go back and check. I believe because I love him, that's how I was raised, and I don't want to go to hell.
    sorry for the double post but NEVER believe in God just because you want to go to Heaven not Hell. Believing in God alone will not get you to Heaven.
    "For it is not what goes into your mouth that will defile you; rather, it is what comes out of your mouth that defiles you." - Jesus of Nazareth

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    There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

    And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewrox424 View Post
    There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

    And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.
    you have to understand, everybody sins. The only man to walk the Earth that didnt sin is Jesus Christ himself. every time we sin it hurts God but Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins. No one is innocent. we are all sinners. Plain and simple.
    "For it is not what goes into your mouth that will defile you; rather, it is what comes out of your mouth that defiles you." - Jesus of Nazareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by oliver1205 View Post
    i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.
    its not too complicated, if you ever read book by gore vidal or charles dickens, they are also complicated,
    if you ever read a high level physics textbook, that gets quite complicated as well,
    also if you ever read about the internal workings of a computer, and how to write a kernel, thats quite complicated as well
    the bible could have easily been written by men (or women)

    also, just because its interesting, does not make it true. On that basis, we should worship harry potter :P


    Quote Originally Posted by oliver1205 View Post
    Believing in God alone will not get you to Heaven.
    i think his point was if you don't believe in God, its a sure way to go to hell, you cannot go to heaven without believing in God.




    as for those personal experiences, could it be that your dad's friend was hallucinating, or the drugs they give him went to his brain,
    also, if he wasn't going to die, God knew this, so why did he go up to heaven for a short while?

    also, how can you feel someone watching over you, when someone watches you, they see light that has reflected off you and gone into their eyes,
    the only way you can know if they are watching you, is if you also watch them.

    so could you just explain this "feeling", which you apparently didn't sense with any of your 5 senses.
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    ok ill try to explain it. Its starts its mt stomach like a burning sensation, but it just feels awesome. idk its really hard to explain
    "For it is not what goes into your mouth that will defile you; rather, it is what comes out of your mouth that defiles you." - Jesus of Nazareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs View Post
    By "complicated things", do you mean there's so much Sin in the world? That's not God's fault. It's humans' imperfection.
    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    Fair enough.
    Completely invalid. I could come right back and say "I belive in God because our world has so much complicated things"

    when i said "
    But i don't believe in god because our world has so much complicated things"

    I meant.
    I do believe in God, but i don't believe in him over just saying our world is so complicated things. Such as the eye.
    sorry, i was tired .

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    Quote Originally Posted by oliver1205 View Post
    I forgot the number but a TON of people went to Jesus's tomb 3 days earlier, and there was no body. This would explain that he rose to Heaven and would come back.
    Okay, yea i am not good at debating, but i have a question, if Jesus rose from his tomb, why would his whole body go? Wouldn't just his spirit? The people on earth who die, and say they go to heaven, their body's are still in their coffin, why would Jess's whole body go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oliver1205 View Post
    ok ill try to explain it. Its starts its mt stomach like a burning sensation, but it just feels awesome. idk its really hard to explain
    That's called thought, hope, fear, relief...

    You think about God and when you think about him you think that will make you feel reassured hence you feel relief you feel.. good..

    It is thought..

    I can be scared of i dunno.. er.. spiders.. this huge tarantula comes real close to me and you FEEL scared

    or when you are waiting for that Christmas present just before you open it you feel something.. these are all brain thoughts..

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    I never said (I think) that this argument should end. I simply said we will probably never get a conclusion relevant to the topic and body of the question, which is whether God exists (Well, its pretty much your question -- in reverse).

    There are multiple theories on both sides, yet each one disproves each other constantly. The problem is such as if one is true, the other must not be true and can not be true (at least at the same time).


    Thus, unless otherwise proven, I believe the answer is you must prove it to yourself. Since there is no proof for either side totally, it could be either or none.

    @oliver - sounds like an orgasm...
    The jealous temper of mankind, ever more disposed to censure than
    to praise the work of others, has constantly made the pursuit of new
    methods and systems no less perilous than the search after unknown
    lands and seas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isjusme View Post
    there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

    I don't know where you got, Just for the sake of believing in it. Maybe i worded something wrong without noticing, too lazy to go back and check. I believe because I love him, that's how I was raised, and I don't want to go to hell.
    You are assuming that all these people wrote down there account immediately, leaving no time for forgetfulness or anything. You are assuming that no one lied. You are assuming that these people were actually there – just because you write or record or testify about something, doesn’t mean that you were actually there. The fact that hundreds of people saw him die, very nice, a man died, but there are only 500 people who saw him after he rose – which is the important part – and you have to figure out how many of those 500 people’s testimonies are accurate. Also, what is to stop anyone from tampering with written records, anyone can take a little scroll, read it, change some wording, and republish it. Anyone between those 500 people and today (including those 500 people) could have had agendas or biases of there own to influence their writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by oliver1205 View Post
    it is also faith. When i pray i know there is someone there watching over me, i can feel it. The Bible is also a very interesting book, heres an internet verison. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=6&version=31
    i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.
    Here is the thing about the Bible. A single person did not write it, it was many people “inspired by God” and therefore would not be too complex to make up. Also, you may say, well if all these people have the same views, doesn’t that point to stronger evidence. Well the answer to that is a clear no, and here is why. In the Bible, it is divided into “gospels” each written by a different person. It is a well-known fact that there are MANY other gospels (not all of them are at all true or accurate, but a good number have just as much authenticity as the ones in the Bible). Many of these gospels as well as many within the Bible itself have contradicting passages.

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewrox424 View Post
    There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

    And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.
    For any number of reasons. God is God and therefore we are not able to understand how he thinks and how he makes decisions and how he works. Perhaps it was to test your faith. Perhaps because your new mother will tell you a particular thing that will change your life. The butterfly effect is constantly in motion in the world around us and only God can see the whole picture (if you think he exists, that is).

    Quote Originally Posted by badandymitch View Post
    Okay, yea i am not good at debating, but i have a question, if Jesus rose from his tomb, why would his whole body go? Wouldn't just his spirit? The people on earth who die, and say they go to heaven, their body's are still in their coffin, why would Jess's whole body go?
    Good question that no one answered. Here is what the answer is according to Christian beliefs (correct me if I am wrong): This is because while any human can go to heaven in spirit, only the extremely holy and pious go with there body (aka resurrection). The only people who have done this are Jesus, Mary (the virgin mother) and MAYBE Saint Peter (not sure on that one, but I thought there was a third).

    This argument is pointless
    I think there is great purpose in this debate. For those who believe in God, every argument against your beliefs that you overcome is just strengthening your faith. For those who don’t believe in God, you are practicing debating and critical thinking skills and perhaps you will learn something that can change your life.

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    Just wanted to first say that everything in Science is a theory or hypothesis and not a fact. Fact is a word given to something that is true, but nothing can be completely true if it is in our world/dimension/universe etc.
    Religion has survived for thousands of years because of lack of proof against it. It is impossible to disprove or prove God's existence with physical material, therefore it is impossible to prove a hypothesis valid. In this instance it is a matter of opinion rather than a fact, thus my post rolls together

    I know I brought nothing to the table, but when the table is thousands of years old and crumbling beneath us, it would just be on the floor in minutes anyway
    By reading this signature you agree that mixster is superior to you in each and every way except the bad ways but including the really bad ways.

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    No-one has mentioned the sightings/visions/apparitions of Virgin Mary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixster View Post
    Just wanted to first say that everything in Science is a theory or hypothesis and not a fact. Fact is a word given to something that is true, but nothing can be completely true if it is in our world/dimension/universe etc.
    the difference is, that science has much evidence in favour of it, but religion has much less

    Like someone said that gravity can influence light, making it bend
    Someone else made an observation during an eclipse of the sun, and notice how two stars appear to move,
    This is a evidence of the theory that gravity can bend light.
    are you saying we should take this theory equally seriously as the God Theory?

    there is the theory of motion, mostly come up with by Issac Newton, and there is a lot of evidence that it works, people use it to calculate how to control a spacecraft so it can reach mars,
    but its still only a theory, and by your logic, it should be taken equally seriously as the theory that things move because they have a life force in them...


    btw, in mathematics, things can be completely proven,
    like the formula
    a^n + b^n = c^n
    has been proved that there are no solutions when n is bigger then 2
    in other parts if science, its a theory


    Quote Originally Posted by mixster View Post
    Religion has survived for thousands of years because of lack of proof against it. It is impossible to disprove or prove God's existence with physical material, therefore it is impossible to prove a hypothesis valid. In this instance it is a matter of opinion rather than a fact, thus my post rolls together
    I believe in the Invisble Pink Unicorn! and its impossible to disprove it,
    by your logic, this idea should survive for thousands of years

    religion only survives because it is shamelessly hammered into children every sunday,

    religion and science are competing theories, one has much more evidence then the other, in any other situation, religion would have been discarded, but it stubbornly persists,
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    My personal favorite religion is The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It is (obviously) a mock religion, but for anyone that has not read it follow the link. It makes several extremely good points, is absolutely hilarious, and proves that the decline of pirates is causing global warming.... Good luck out there...

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    ok ok ok lol im gunna keep this short as im lasy else it would be a massive rant

    piont 1
    before the big bang there was hydrogen compacted realy tightly with a very large density almost infinitum b4 that is what we have now b4 that is the tight ball again and so on and so on into a chicken/egg idea

    piont 2 i cant prove that god doesnt exist

    but

    can god make a pizza so hot that he cant eat it

    if yes then he is not all powerfull

    if no then he is not all powerfull
    Blank!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    religion only survives because it is shamelessly hammered into children every sunday,

    religion and science are competing theories, one has much more evidence then the other, in any other situation, religion would have been discarded, but it stubbornly persists,
    You're forgetting that while religion is 'hammered' into children every Sunday, the hypothesis of Evolution is 'hammered' into children every weekday in school.

    How can you say one has more evidence than the other? If what I read in my textbook was correct, just about every piece of evidence you have for Evolution is, as best, unconfirmed.

    If not, then please, put forth your evidence. We'll study it, judge it, and, if possible, shoot it down without remorse.

    (Because, isn't that what you're supposed to do in this type of debate?)

    -Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs View Post
    You're forgetting that while religion is 'hammered' into children every Sunday, the hypothesis of Evolution is 'hammered' into children every weekday in school.

    How can you say one has more evidence than the other? If what I read in my textbook was correct, just about every piece of evidence you have for Evolution is, as best, unconfirmed.

    If not, then please, put forth your evidence. We'll study it, judge it, and, if possible, shoot it down without remorse.

    (Because, isn't that what you're supposed to do in this type of debate?)

    -Mike
    No evidence for evolution?!?!

    Well, once upon a time (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882 actually) there was a man named Charles Darwin. He came up with the theory of evolution and the idea of natural selection. I will give you some links to some reading.

    If you are only going to read one, read this: http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

    Nice easy one on wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
    Really good one here that does some explaining: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
    www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
    www.conservapedia.com/Theory_of_Evolution
    www.spaceandmotion.com/Charles-Darwin-Theory-Evolution.htm
    www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/evolution.html
    www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

    If you want more I can get you many, many, many more...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    No evidence for evolution?!?!

    Well, once upon a time (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882 actually) there was a man named Charles Darwin. He came up with the theory of evolution and the idea of natural selection. I will give you some links to some reading.

    If you are only going to read one, read this: http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

    Nice easy one on wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
    Really good one here that does some explaining: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
    www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
    www.conservapedia.com/Theory_of_Evolution
    www.spaceandmotion.com/Charles-Darwin-Theory-Evolution.htm
    www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/evolution.html
    www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

    If you want more I can get you many, many, many more...
    Mate, I came here to debate you. Not a college professor. If I wanted you to throw a bunch of links at me, I would have asked.

    Just because you can search Google and copy and paste a bunch of links, doesn't mean you actually understand any of this.

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    well you asked for proof and there it is. It's not like I discovered it myself. I mean usually that is how you proove things is by citing information. You want me to give you a book or a magazine article or something?

    And clearly you do not understand what YOU are talking about if you think there is no evidence for evolution. I came here for a knowledgeable debate to, so make sure you know what you are talking about before saying anything...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    well you asked for proof and there it is. It's not like I discovered it myself. I mean usually that is how you proove things is by citing information. You want me to give you a book or a magazine article or something?

    And clearly you do not understand what YOU are talking about if you think there is no evidence for evolution. I came here for a knowledgeable debate to, so make sure you know what you are talking about before saying anything...
    I don't mind you giving me things to read, but don't make that all you give me. Give me some of your own words, and I'll be happy to have a sensible argument with you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

    (Couldn't resist.)

    Oh, in that case... I was citing a reference as well. My biology book.

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    One area where science has failed is... there is no proof on how the universe could of possibly started because of the amount of hellium in the sun and universe... thats how we orignally came up with the bigbang... The original theory was that universe started as a big clump of hydrogen (I think). and formed together to make giant starts which eventually made every element of the world.

    I think string theory might come into the starting existence of the universe but it looks like it's coming to a dead end from my point of view... 11 dimensions sounds so fake... and there are also 5 different types of string theory...

    My brother is studying advance science in uni... maybe I could probably ask him later...

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