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Thread: Arguments for God's Existance

  1. #76
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    I'm gonna stay outta this whole debate as people seem to be handling it, somewhat lol... i just would like to point out at the school thing, i dont think we should teach either in school, but we should let people pray in school and whatnot... As there is no such thing as "seperation of church and state" in the constitution/bill of rights, simply that the government cannot restrict or favor it, it does not mean that individuals in the government cannot favor it simply, they cannot make laws about it... and that is all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    Ah, religion... how much I have discussed this at uni...
    There is really no point in arguing, saying I'm right, you're wrong.
    agreed. Im just trying to stop the people who say they are right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post

    To me, believing in God is simple: It is for the weak and insecure people. People who are feeling insecure need comfort, and so they turn to God. Otherwise, they believe in God because their families do. Why do their families believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure and turned to God.
    What is this??! Why do you try to judge and sterotype something that you don't even understand!? Ok, look, let me make this definition right now. There are people who say they belive or feel they belive because they are weak and wanted superficial comfort (or perhaps the social comfort of church) and people who only belive because of people they know belive. That imho is not truely beliving. Sure, you can call people like that insecure, but not me. I did not become a beliver because anyone I knew was ( it was very much to the contrary and I got allot of crap because of it ), nor was it because I needed comfort. I mean, Hell, I don't even want to be a believer! I'm just stuck with evidence that I can not deny.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    Its a win win situation. Believe and you go to heaven.
    and if heaven doesnt excist, ure still ok
    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    Don't believe, and it doesn't matter where you go; you don't believe they exist.
    unless they do, then ure in a bit of trouble. Anyhow, i am against people beliving just because they are scared, but thats at least their argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    And did you know that the only way to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus dies for you and loves you? So those who say you may as well believe in God: Its not going to help you. So give up now, or turn hardcore Christian.
    no. this is not true. In fact, even people who are athiest can get into heaven if they lead a good life. God is just and jesus is very forgiving. Everyone gets a fair shot at choosing to believe or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    Also, because of this, its means that if your loved ones don't believe in Jesus, it means that they will be burning in hell, regardless of it they were a decent person in life or not. For a God who is supposed to love us unconditionally, that doesn't seem right, no?
    your right, it isn't, and thats not how it works. Least not in my religion. other ones may have their own stuff to work out.. like i said before, i am complelty against the fu**ed up religions who got it all worng.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    Which leads me to me next point. just because you believe in Jesus, does it really mean you deserve to go to heaven? If i were a serial killer, killing thousands of people, BUT i believe in Jesus, and that he died for us, it means i'm going to heaven. Is that fair? Well its
    hell no, lol. I mean i supose it might be possiblke if this murder complelty repented for his sins. including.. well, undoing what he has done.. or something like that.. but yeah. not likly, I really dont know the details, but i would say that him getting into heaven isnt guna work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    what some extreme Muslims believe, no?
    helifino. Thats one of them fu**ed up unsuported religions. Not all religions are the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    And finally, how do you know Christianity is the right religion? You were brought up in that environment right, from a young age where you were very mouldable, or because you live in the western society, which is based on Christianity (and don't bother saying some other religion is the dominating in the western world, we all know its Christian based anyway). Which again leads me to my first point: You believe in God because your family does. And why do your family believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure...
    No. thats not me nor why. How do i know? I asked, prayed and got an answer. Arguably the bigest mistake of my life, but its too late now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    I just find it so hard to believe that so many people would follow a faith so blindly without any proof of God's existence. If he doesn't exist, then thats a good 70 years of your life wasted.
    Some people do. People are idiots. I don't really understand the people who do it without having personal proof of their own either. It probably some fu**ed up stuff like wanting to look good, or falling into peer presure, or something like that. But i don't know, im not going to judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by yakman
    Starblaster100, you're painting a rosy picture of a live-and-let-live society of theism and atheism,
    You propose live-and-kill-belivers is a better picture? Seriosuly now, i know their are some screwed up religions, but getting all mad at them is just guna make things worse. Get your own moral set of guidlines, (utilitarian if you will) and judge based on that if you need to.
    [IMG]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2120/2052732965_348f3629d0_o.jpg[/IMG]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs View Post
    I don't mind you giving me things to read, but don't make that all you give me. Give me some of your own words, and I'll be happy to have a sensible argument with you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

    (Couldn't resist.)

    Oh, in that case... I was citing a reference as well. My biology book.
    Fair enough. Your biology book seriously said that evolution had very little unconfirmed evidence?! That is very strange, well I guess maybe not depending on where you live. If you live in a community that is historically Christian then the school district probably purchases more religious based texts, not that it is a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    it was not hammered into me as a child or now adays. I don't need people to tell me what to believe, that normaly causes me to almost imidatly regect it. I found out what I know on my own.
    Well do you attend church? If so, that is at least one hour a week that you have someone tell you what it is that you believe. Just pointing that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    And yeah, your pink unicorn or flying spagetti monster is just peachy. But its doesnt survive?! I wonder why? It's simple. I get a real answer to my prayrs, and I feel something that is undenable proof to me. I don't apreciate stuff like that made to just mock my belief. You claim that there is a relation, but that is only because you do not understand. You see things with your own eyes, and then decide that is all there is. So sure, in your eyes, your unicorn and my god are the same, and taking them seriously is just insanity. You just don't see the full picture.
    Sigh they were both created as mock religions and they were made to point out some of the flaws in different theologies. The Flying Spaghetti Monster, for example, if you read it that is, which I doubt, was created because a school wanted 50% evolution and 50% intelligent design. So he created his own religion, which as much as you hate to admit it, pretty much as equal proof to most religions. Now this does NOT mean that the religions are WRONG, it just means that you CANNOT expect some people to believe in it. So do not get all angry and start flaming me. This man who created it, he thought that since these were his beliefs that no one could technically prove incorrect, it should get equal time getting taught in schools. Since his argument actually made sense, since it was impossible to disprove yet was obviously too ridiculous to be taught (not that other religions are ridiculous, this one has spaghetti for a god okay?), the school district could not really teach intelligent design in school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cardin View Post
    science hasnt failed us. Do you know how long it took us to figure out e = mc^2? It wasnt until Einstein came along and figured it out that we had that. If science wasnt evolving, then we wouldnt be having smaller, thinner TV's and more and more fuel efficient cars. Just because we cant explain something right this second doesnt mean that science has failed us or that it cant be figured out. On the other hand, theists have been believing in the same thing for thousands of years and havent gotten any more evidence of anything in that time.
    Hey very good point right there. I like having a person like you debating too. You bring up nice points. Although that thing about us killing ourselves over and over doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense I guess lol.

    [QUOTE Genesis 1:26-28 ]
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    [/QUOTE]

    A few questions on this, if this is a direct quote of the bible. If God created man, why does he use the work “our?” Is that referring to the angels + God or to the Holy Trinity (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit)? That question is simpler and does not spawn any argument or new points I think. The real question I had is that if God make man in His image. Then is God full of destruction? Because anyone would be hard-pressed to say that man is not naturally violent. I always heard that God was merciful and peaceful and all that…

    OMG Dusk412, who’s side are you on?!
    Also for everyone who wants to know what side I am on, due to the fact I have made several comments on both sides, I am on my side . To further explain: every debate, at least the ones worth having, don’t only have just one side. There is not just two beliefs, and my beliefs on this topic (as with most topics) are uniquely my own. And in this particular topic, I think I believe in God (Though I am not sure). The reason for this mainly comes from my experiences in nature. While I do spend a lot of time on the computer I do enjoy the outdoors and most sports. There was a specific occasion I have in mind, though there are several other examples in my life. This example is when I was out camping in an area miles from any city so there was no light pollution. Now I went off by myself in the middle of a field and lay down in just my sleeping bag and a tarp and I looked at the sky. It was a perfectly clear night. For anyone who lives out in the country or anything and has seen the Milky Way Galaxy, they can also tell you how beautiful and utterly awesome it is. That alone is enough to make me think that something so beautiful (I know it sounds weird that I use this word, but it is the only one I can think to use) could not have been created by chance. But then sometimes I think logically and see the billions of stars and figure well it could happen because I mean even if the odds were one in a billion, Earth could be that one. But then I think well how would this one chance at life have created this thinking and entirely unique (as far as I know – no aliens) species. And my head keeps going round like that so I am not quite sure what I believe except that I think there is a God. I do not know if I believe in Jesus (that whole Holy Trinity think is kind of weird for me).I do not believe that the bread and wine turn into his body and blood (if you have ever tasted your own blood from like a paper cut or something and tasted the wine at church, the wine tastes like wine, not blood…). Umm that is all I can think of I just thought you should all know where I stand since I am arguing lol. I may also make remarks against people that do not support my own beliefs but that is because I like to simulate discussion and arguing is fun .

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    But who knows, maybe this whole God thing is nothing but a brainwashing thing, lol. I know in some religions in certainly seems that way. Lots of moral mind games they play with you to get you to come to church and give your money so you don't look like scum. I despise that type of pervasion in religion, that's not believing in God.
    Actually that is a point that is slightly made fun on and discussed with the Flying Spaghetti Monster (use wikipedia if you don’t know what I am talkin about). The fact that many major religions now say that you need money to go to heaven or something is horrendous in my opinion. For example, scientology was created by a man as a sort of business purely for profit. If that isn’t twisted, I don’t know what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    this is very true. And I am going to have to agree with you, at many points along its history it was completly corupted, and used as a way to brainswash and control people to do whatever their leader wanted. Take the crusades for exampole. Its apsolutly hideous how quickly and how far people can screw up religion.
    Well,, yeah.. if you look at just that, it is defanitly a bad thing. But like I said earlier, that isnt relgion, that is a perversion of it. Most religons that i am familiar with teach you to love and get along with people, be charitable, and good constructive usefull stuff like that.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    No, not really. I have yet to see a tree tell me that God doesnt exist, or anything other than a human do that.
    Uh oh. Once again you are going toward the “since you can’t disprove me, it must be true.” I would have to say you are going towards the lazy side of this debate… Come on I know you have better arguments than that lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    But here is the thing.. evolution really isnt any evidence against god. Genises is really quite abstract and vuage about how God made everything, and depending on your technicalities I really think it was jesus doing all the physical stuff.. but regardless. I think the closest description of how he did it was something like "molded out of clay" and that each stage happened in a day.
    AHAH! Now here is where we get to the real center of the matter. Now it comes right down to how much you believe in the Bible and how literally you take it. If you take the Bible metaphorically, then all of religion makes much MUCH more sense (to me at least) and I have much more respect for you. It is these people that think that God made the world in EXACTLY seven days (even though these same people will also tell you that God is outside of time and therefore not subject to its rules).

    Some of these people also like to say that Noah had dinosaurs on his arc and that is just ridiculous. Or they believe that all the dinosaur fossils are fake. To start from the beginning, dinosaurs have been discovered through fossils and have been estimated to exist around from the late Triassic period (about 230 million years ago) to the end of the Cretaceous period (65 million years ago). DNA evidence indicates that modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago. The dates for dinosaurs were figured out using a combination of mainly 3 things. If another fossil like it is found, they are likely from the same era. They use Stratigraphy, which deals with rock layers and layering. You can learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratigraphy. They use radioisotope dating which uses decay rates of known materials due to radiation. You can learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_dating.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post

    I don't really know for certain, but this molding could have very well been evolution, just simplified down. Explaining chromosomes is a bit much and unnecessary for a vision really. And i think the fact that he sais "and it was good" kinda aludes to the point that maybe he wasn't quite satisfied at the beiging of the day.

    And as far as the "day" stuff. Its prety obvious through all the visions and stuff, that god has a prety good mastery of quantumatics, and that time, and "day" is pretty relative.
    Now that is the kind of arguments I expect from you LordGregGreg lol. Nice stuff…

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs View Post
    Thank you, Yakman.

    I have no problem with being given pages to read, so long as you provide some of your own words too. That way I know you actually know what you're talking about. Otherwise, I would have to assume that you read the same pages as I did. Because if you didn't, any point I launch at you will fly right over your head. If that made any sense at all ^_~

    I'd like to apologize for assuming that Evolution had no plausible evidence. I assumed what I read in my book was accurate.
    I have a feeling this was directed at me in both a positive manner and a negative manner. I, too, apologize for just throwing links. It was late and I was tired and I was slightly irritated at the comment of no plausible evidence. That is no excuse though. You are actually quite knowledgeable and have made several valid points since.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs View Post
    Also...

    "we live in a world of innocent-until-proven-guilty"

    Wouldn't that mean Creation should be considered a valid theory until it's proven invalid?
    Hmm I really am not liking any of this innocent vs. guilty reasoning. This is only ever used in the justice system pretty much. Also, science NEVER uses this. That is why there are so few scientific laws and so many theories. Many theories of science are universally accepted but are not laws (aka scientific facts) because they cannot be proven. To become a law it has to be absolutely proven by disproving all other possibilities. If used in this debate it will mean that all different opinions are absolutely correct because nobody can prove them absolutely wrong. That is why this debate is still around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman
    one difference is, numbers, newton's laws and shakespeare have a clear use to humanity, while religion causes much destruction and death
    Sorry but when I read this the first thing I thought of was, what is the clear use to humanity of shakespeare? The next thing I thought of is that religion does have a use to humanity. Whether religion is correct or not, in essence, is irrelevant for several reasons. 1. It helps humanity cope with the idea of death and what happens after death. 2. Without religion there would be millions, even billions, of people with no place to go for help and support. 3. It not only gives financial and emotional support to those who need it, it gives moral support as well and keeps many people on Earth from becoming moral-less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starblaster100 View Post
    Also, because of this, its means that if your loved ones don't believe in Jesus, it means that they will be burning in hell, regardless of it they were a decent person in life or not. For a God who is supposed to love us unconditionally, that doesn't seem right, no?

    Which leads me to me next point. just because you believe in Jesus, does it really mean you deserve to go to heaven? If i were a serial killer, killing thousands of people, BUT i believe in Jesus, and that he died for us, it means i'm going to heaven. Is that fair? Well its what some extreme Muslims believe, no?

    And finally, how do you know Christianity is the right religion? You were brought up in that environment right, from a young age where you were very mouldable, or because you live in the western society, which is based on Christianity (and don't bother saying some other religion is the dominating in the western world, we all know its Christian based anyway). Which again leads me to my first point: You believe in God because your family does. And why do your family believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure...

    I just find it so hard to believe that so many people would follow a faith so blindly without any proof of God's existence. If he doesn't exist, then thats a good 70 years of your life wasted.
    That first paragraph I quoted is a very good point though, which is one of the reasons I am not sure what to believe, as well as most of the second paragraph. Now that part about extreme Muslims is rather strange because, well not to get controversial, but many of them actually were brainwashed, if you want proof I guess I can find some later just ask, but this post is getting rather long. I am writing on MS Word and it is no getting to the bottom of the 4th page.

    Ah, Starblaster. You are sort of assuming this is Christians vs. atheists but it is actually theists vs. atheists. I have no idea why you are assuming everyone here who believes in God is Christian. But that part of insecure people is actually partially true as much as many people hate to admit it. I believe, though, that the true fear behind all the hundreds of religions is simply the fear of death. And atheists who do not have a religion are usually just as “weak” but are stubborn and just try not to think about it. There is only an EXTREMELY small percentage of atheists who are actually comfortable with the idea of death. For example, the poet Emily Dickinson (Try poems There is a solitude of space or Because I could not stop for Death or I heard a fly Buzz – that last one I think I got the title wrong…).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs
    Why are you discrediting religion so much? Some people are religious, some people aren't. Why can't you just leave it at that? Why should religion be kept out of politics, abortion, and stem cell research?
    I believe that religion should be kept out of politics entirely. There is a seperation of church and state (or supposed to be) for a reason. If you have your religion, and it, for example, says that abortion is wrong. Then you completely have the right to not support abortion and to try to convince others that it is wrong. You definitely should not say, “It is wrong because the Bible says so.” This either makes atheists fight for abortion just because you are trying to convince them through the use of a God and book that they do not believe in or it tells others in your same religion something that they already know. Either way, it does not help your cause and just makes atheists dislike people who do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs
    Should Creation and Evolution be taught side-by-side in school?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    no, we should not teach two opposing theories that blatantly contradict each other,
    its like teaching that 2 + 2 = 4, and then going and teaching 2 + 2 = 5

    children at that age are easily mouldable, its possible they would believe the whole of life is contradictory like this,
    it would end up like double-think from Nineteen-eighty-four

    either teach one, or the other
    Hmm I agree that it should not be taught side-by-side in school but not at all for the same reasons. In fact, I believe your reasoning is entirely flawed. This is not at all like the 2+2=4 or 5 because that shows a right and a wrong answer. Creation and Evolution are not just black and white things as you seem to think, there is tons and tons of gray area with lots of room for interpretation. It is like saying that teaching about the book Of Mice and Men in literature class is wrong because it portrays killing as good at the end because it was for the right reasons. Does this make kids say, well is killing right or wrong, make up your mind? No it doesn’t! It teaches kids to use critical thinking skills and analysis and form their own opinions which are all skills that are becoming lacking in modern society.

    Now I believe that religion and evolution should not be taught side by side for one GREAT reason. In our Constitution of the United States of America it says there should be a separation of church and state. Our Constitution has lasted for 220+ years and for good reason. It is good! Religion should be taught outside of schools that are government run. I live in the United States by the way, that is why. If you are from another country I guess this doesn’t apply. For this same reason I believe that the line “under God” should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance even though I am Catholic.

    - If you thought this was too long. Too bad. I like debating and here are my arguments. If you came here to learn, then learn first to read.

    Edit: @LordGregGreg: Can you please stop saying you have "personal evidence" and such and using that as reasoning if you are not going to tell anyone what it is. It is rather annoying lol, you have done it at least 3 times now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    agreed. Im just trying to stop the people who say they are right.
    Greg, thats probably one of the most liberal religious things you have ever said. There aren't two rights to a debate.
    Saying something like this is comparable to the minister who, a few months ago, said it wasn't his place to say who did or did not go to heaven or hell, based on what religion they were of. If you dare ask me why this is sickening, I will be very disgusted in you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLKrawl View Post
    Greg, thats probably one of the most liberal religious things you have ever said. There aren't two rights to a debate.
    Saying something like this is comparable to the minister who, a few months ago, said it wasn't his place to say who did or did not go to heaven or hell, based on what religion they were of. If you dare ask me why this is sickening, I will be very disgusted in you.
    What are you saying. It is not the ministers right to say who is or isn't going to hell (as far as i know in ANY religion). That right lies only with God and since humanity does not know how God works or decides who goes where, they cannot judge. "There aren't two rights to a debate." Ah how niave. There are plenty of rights to every debate. As much as you may like to think so, the world is not black and white. If I ask you to argue about the best way to move a block of cement and have you debate about it, there may be several right answers. This is a basic example, but you get the point. Or if if you would like to technical for this particular debate, I guess there is only 1 right answer, but no one can know if they are correct or not until they die, so technically there are no right or wrong answers in THIS debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    What are you saying. It is not the ministers right to say who is or isn't going to hell (as far as i know in ANY religion). That right lies only with God and since humanity does not know how God works or decides who goes where, they cannot judge. "There aren't two rights to a debate." Ah how niave. There are plenty of rights to every debate. As much as you may like to think so, the world is not black and white. If I ask you to argue about the best way to move a block of cement and have you debate about it, there may be several right answers. This is a basic example, but you get the point. Or if if you would like to technical for this particular debate, I guess there is only 1 right answer, but no one can know if they are correct or not until they die, so technically there are no right or wrong answers in THIS debate.
    Congratulations, you're an idiot. I appreciate the wall of text, but I don't feel like going in depth as to why you or anyone who agrees with you are gravely mistaken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLKrawl View Post
    Congratulations, you're an idiot. I appreciate the wall of text, but I don't feel like going in depth as to why you or anyone who agrees with you are gravely mistaken.
    So you are basically a flamer who came here to state one thing then flame anyone who opposes you. You are also too lazy to read what anyone else posts. Then you call me an idiot and say "I don't feel like going in depth" because you have absolutely no come back. Then you post a link that goes to a retarded page that takes forever to get out of because it gives you a 2 second laugh and makes you feel slightly better about yourself because you have the IQ of a 2 year old. Did I get that about right?

    *NOTE* Nobody click the link in his post unless you want to watch a music video that you can't exit for a while....

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    My opinion.

    Indoctrination is a strong force. Those indoctrinated with religion will most likely keep their beliefs throughout their lives.
    The human mind is quite weak, but i feel that with time religion will fade away because it is archaic.
    Saying that god must exists because you cannot disprove his existence is the same as saying that magical dragons and wizards must exist because you cannot disprove their existence.
    Some day, the civilized world will realize that it no longer needs religion and the chains that religion holds on our society will be released.
    It all comes with time, As more and more people become enlightened with science, Religion will fade away.
    People also say "who created the universe? who created space?" and since they do not know an answer,they simply think it must be the work of god. People do not realize that that is the exact thing that People thought in the medieval ages, "who created the earth, who created the sun, who created humans?" The truth is that no one created it, it is just there, Humans tend to have the inability to leave their questions unanswered, and saying that something is the work of god can help them to resolve their unanswered questions.

    Some day people will realize that there is no man in the sky watching what we do, there is no almighty creator, only life itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    So you are basically a flamer who came here to state one thing then flame anyone who opposes you. You are also too lazy to read what anyone else posts. Then you call me an idiot and say "I don't feel like going in depth" because you have absolutely no come back. Then you post a link that goes to a retarded page that takes forever to get out of because it gives you a 2 second laugh and makes you feel slightly better about yourself because you have the IQ of a 2 year old. Did I get that about right?

    *NOTE* Nobody click the link in his post unless you want to watch a music video that you can't exit for a while....
    Dusk, tell me what limited information you have on Christianity.
    Active only during the Summer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacklcrawl
    what he said about a minsiter and me being liberal..
    yes, i agree that minister is screwed up. I didn't mean to say it as "im trying to stop anyone wrong who sais they are right", i meant it to just emphasise the fact that there really is no right to this debate. Anyone who really thinks they have solid proof and belivies that it proves them right and everyone should see and understand this is just being.. well, crazy. And i think it would be good for them to see the other side of the picture, or at least relize theirs isnt as strong and obvious as they think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    Well do you attend church? If so, that is at least one hour a week that you have someone tell you what it is that you believe. Just pointing that out.
    No, i dont. and you hit the reason right on the head.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    Sigh they were both created as mock religions and they were made to point out some of the flaws in different theologies. The Flying Spaghetti Monster...
    yes, i did read up on them and understand them. Granted i didnt know the entire purpose of FSM (and thank you for that, cool story ) but it is stil a mock religion, and thats why i didnt like it that much. Its akin to saying that I belive in crazy stuff (which, in some peoples eyes i may, and thats legit), but i just wanted to point out that there is a hell of alot more to my belifs than just the fact that you can't disproove them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    Uh oh. Once again you are going toward the “since you can’t disprove me, it must be true.” I would have to say you are going towards the lazy side of this debate… Come on I know you have better arguments than that lol.
    oh, no no. I was not using that as an argument for me. I was only using it to counter what yakman said about him having more evidence. basically just saying that he didnt have any either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    AHAH! Now here is where we get to the real center of the matter. Now it comes right down to how much you believe in the Bible and how literally you take it. If you take the Bible metaphorically, then all of religion makes much MUCH more sense (to me at least) and I have much more respect for you. It is these people that think that God made the world in EXACTLY seven days (even though these same people will also tell you that God is outside of time and therefore not subject to its rules).
    agreed. Although i do know everyhitng in the bible is true.. i have also seen people take what it sais and twist it into the strangest bull crap i have ever seen. I think to really read and understand the bible, you have to have the spirit really guide you, as it can get pretyy messy at times. Kinda have to thing.. ok. genisis.. thats crazyness.. but.. this was all a vision that moses saw (i think?) and its just what he wrote down to describe it. So he probably saw a interesting sort of quantumatic time thing, showing each important stage of the earth, probably (especialy before there even was a sun) day meant more of "stage" or something like that.. anyhow, you get my drift.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    Some of these people also like to say that Noah had dinosaurs on his arc and that is just ridiculous. Or they believe that all the dinosaur fossils are fake.
    yep, this is called blind faith and easy stupid answers. Just beause their answers might possibly "could" be right, doesnt mean they are not bull crap. Now, if i really wanted to know if Moses took dinos on the ark, i probably could pray about it, but something tells me i would just get slaped for being stupid. lol. (i mean this purpely jokingly, JC does not slap me.. lol)

    and as far as my personal evidence. the only reason i havnt really described it is because it just really doesnt matter to anyone but me. It can't really be proof to anyone else, so I dont want it to look like i am using it as such. Personal evidence? I prayed to God and honeslty asked him if he existed. And very much to my displeasure I recived a very strong answer that he does. What was the answer, well, i was expecting absolute nothingness, but instead my sternum just started to .. i dont know, feel amazing and i started crying uncontrolably. And thats about it really, the rest was my crying because i was so pissed i was wrong,lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupyBastrd View Post
    My opinion.
    Indoctrination is a strong force. Those indoctrinated with religion will most likely keep their beliefs throughout their lives..
    granted, lots of blind faith blievers.
    Quote Originally Posted by SoupyBastrd View Post
    Saying that god must exists because you cannot disprove his existence is the same as saying that magical dragons and wizards must exist because you cannot disprove their existence.
    Some day, the civilized world will realize that it no longer needs religion and the chains that religion holds on our society will be released.
    It all comes with time, As more and more people become enlightened with science, Religion will fade away.
    Sure. But wouldnt it suck if people kept on getting revelations that he does exist? Man, that would just screw up everything if a real God came in and interfered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLKrawl View Post
    Dusk, tell me what limited information you have on Christianity.
    What does this have to do with what I posted lol? Why do you assume I have limited knowledge? There is really no reason why I shouldn't answer you though so here it is. I was rasied a Catholic, though my beliefs do not really fit the religion so while I consider myself a Catholic, I probably would not be considered one by anyone else. I have read most of the Bible and I attended 10+ years of religion class (Catechism or however you spell it). I attend Catholic mass every Sunday. There is my background. Now your turn to tell me how it is relevant to anything...

    Edit: @LordGregGred: Thank you, I have just been curious about it. You make very good points, nicely done.

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    yes, i agree that minister is screwed up. I didn't mean to say it as "im trying to stop anyone wrong who sais they are right", i meant it to just emphasise the fact that there really is no right to this debate. Anyone who really thinks they have solid proof and belivies that it proves them right and everyone should see and understand this is just being.. well, crazy. And i think it would be good for them to see the other side of the picture, or at least relize theirs isnt as strong and obvious as they think.
    OK, I just misunderstood.
    Sorry for jumping to conclusions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    What does this have to do with what I posted lol? Why do you assume I have limited knowledge? There is really no reason why I shouldn't answer you though so here it is. I was rasied a Catholic, though my beliefs do not really fit the religion so while I consider myself a Catholic, I probably would not be considered one by anyone else. I have read most of the Bible and I attended 10+ years of religion class (Catechism or however you spell it). I attend Catholic mass every Sunday. There is my background. Now your turn to tell me how it is relevant to anything...
    Since I'd really rather not have Here point me out, I'll just go ahead and explain it to you.
    My message to Greg about the minister and there "not being two rights to a debate" was covering Christs sacrifice.

    Your post thoroughly ticked me off, because not only did you send me a text wall, but you also missed the entire point. You told me I was being naive and that the world doesn't operate in black and white, over several lines. Thanks for that.

    Christians believe that Christ sacrificed himself so that, should we believe in him, go to heaven. A sick minister put out liberal garbage recently that it wasn't "our place to judge atheists," and that "it is only God's right."

    This sick minister has preached the gospel for several years, and he goes and tells us that the gospel is wrong? Someone who is a raised Catholic should at least know as much that atheists don't go to heaven.

    Why, you might ask? Do you believe that God would give his only son if there was another way? No. Christians believe that believing in Christ's blood is the only way to salvation for our sins.

    Now your turn to tell me how it is relevant to anything...
    If someone does something bad in the name of one, it is in one's best interest to speak up, as to not give one a bad name.
    Someone did not do something bad in the name of one.

    Earlier someone said that Christianity had about 1900 more years to evolve than Evolution?
    Explain. Christians have been persecuted for centuries, starting from the birth of Christ. I suggest you read up before you make a baseless claim such as this. Catholics, Protestants, both were persecuted in Europe for a long time, before and during the 1700-1800s.

    I'm going to bed. I have neither the interest nor desire to continue a chain conversation spanning ten pages. This is the last post that I'm going to make while I'm in a bad mood.
    Active only during the Summer...

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    "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties." - Francis Bacon

    I think this really works both ways. If you start out certain that God is a figment of the imagination, then you will at some point have an experience that will make you doubt yourself. Likewise if you start out certain that God exists, then at some point you may have an experience that will raise doubts in your mind. If you start out uncertain, and willing to truly find out, I think you will end up with the answer.

    "The only source of knowledge is experience." -Albert Einstein

    This, of course, explains how to go about it. Reading from a book isn't truth. If you picked up a textbook from the 1700's a large majority of the concepts it was teaching would be considered outdated or outright false. When people 100 years in the future look back at our "cutting edge" science it will almost certainly look very simple and inelegant to them.

    And really, in this respect I think that faithful people have a big advantage over those lacking faith. Most faithful people hold their beliefs because of a personal experience, or a personal witness that they themselves have felt. It wasn't merely something read on the internet or from a textbook or in a lecture. It's more than that because they have firsthand experience.

    In contrast very, very few people have any firsthand experience testing scientific hypotheses. They get their "knowledge" second hand. They have to accept it without truly understanding it for themselves. And as Einstein points out, that's not true knowledge in the first place.

    And although one may point to a scientist as someone with expertise they have developed over years and years of work, many people would do the same for a minister or a church leader that has spent a lifetime honing their ability to discern religious truths.

    I think in the end, most people are satisfied to take their core beliefs second-hand, and I think that's sad. I think that developing faith is just as much an experiment as anything done in a lab. You have a pretty standard protocol to follow. You have a pretty good understanding of what the end result should be. It may not always work. But when it does work it's undeniable. All of these characteristics are shared with a science experiment.

    One key to being a good scientist is tenacity. If a person gave up the first time an experiment failed, we literally wouldn't have one single scientist on earth. Perhaps that was behind another Einstein quote.

    "Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it." - Albert Einstein

    I wonder how many people that experimented on their faith and failed would have made good scientists.


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    I said this would be my last post tonight? I lied.
    Heres something I liked while browsing.
    Faith is caught like a disease, not taught like a subject. It grasps us, travels all over our systems, and redefines who we are. We open up to it in hope because the Spirit works through other people who live their faith honestly and bear its message to those who haven't grasped it yet. It is done and shown in concrete ways of daily living and in 'moments of truth' where matters of faith most clearly make the key difference.
    http://www.spirithome.com/faith-sp.html
    Also read "Faith is Illogical."
    I wonder how many people that experimented on their faith and failed would have made good scientists.
    I'm siggying that.
    Active only during the Summer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLKrawl View Post
    Earlier someone said that Christianity had about 1900 more years to evolve than Evolution?
    Explain. Christians have been persecuted for centuries, starting from the birth of Christ. I suggest you read up before you make a baseless claim such as this. Catholics, Protestants, both were persecuted in Europe for a long time, before and during the 1700-1800s.
    No offence.. but they kinda did. I don't think it really matters how much they were persucuted or not. I supose that may slow it down a little bit.. but still. On a time scale basis, christianty has been around allot more than evolution, not to mention that during the dark ages everyone was kinda forced into a messued up type of christianity.

    and tara. I love your whole post. maybe just because of the einstein quotes. But regardless +rep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLKrawl View Post
    OK, I just misunderstood.
    Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

    Since I'd really rather not have Here point me out, I'll just go ahead and explain it to you.
    My message to Greg about the minister and there "not being two rights to a debate" was covering Christs sacrifice.

    Your post thoroughly ticked me off, because not only did you send me a text wall, but you also missed the entire point. You told me I was being naive and that the world doesn't operate in black and white, over several lines. Thanks for that.

    Christians believe that Christ sacrificed himself so that, should we believe in him, go to heaven. A sick minister put out liberal garbage recently that it wasn't "our place to judge atheists," and that "it is only God's right."

    This sick minister has preached the gospel for several years, and he goes and tells us that the gospel is wrong? Someone who is a raised Catholic should at least know as much that atheists don't go to heaven.

    Why, you might ask? Do you believe that God would give his only son if there was another way? No. Christians believe that believing in Christ's blood is the only way to salvation for our sins.


    If someone does something bad in the name of one, it is in one's best interest to speak up, as to not give one a bad name.
    Someone did not do something bad in the name of one.

    Earlier someone said that Christianity had about 1900 more years to evolve than Evolution?
    Explain. Christians have been persecuted for centuries, starting from the birth of Christ. I suggest you read up before you make a baseless claim such as this. Catholics, Protestants, both were persecuted in Europe for a long time, before and during the 1700-1800s.

    I'm going to bed. I have neither the interest nor desire to continue a chain conversation spanning ten pages. This is the last post that I'm going to make while I'm in a bad mood.
    My post thoroughly ticked you off?! HA!
    1. You called me an idiot blatantly with a retarded link.
    2. I am able to send a wall of text at you because I have the knowledge to actually type it
    3. How can you question my Christianity and faith in God. The minister was right, neither you nor anyone else can judge me besides God. If you do not believe, try reading the Bible sometime (you know the big, important book)

    Quote Originally Posted by Corinthians 4:1-21
    But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 7:1-5
    “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hebrews 5:1-14
    For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness.
    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:7
    And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 6:37
    “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 30:5-6
    Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

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    This post is mostly directed at Dusk's reply to me...

    Just a few things to say. First off, I've long forgotten about the throwing a bunch of links at me deal. It's fine.

    Second, taking "under God" out of the Pledge of a country that was founded on God is completely nonsensical. If we do, I believe our status as a worldwide superpower will very quickly fall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psalms 33:12
    Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
    Thirdly, "Separation of Church and State" does not mean we have to keep God out of schools. It means we are not to impose any specific religion. "Intelligent Designer" does not fall under any one religion, thus, completely constitutional.

    Fourthly, the "let us make man in our image" part is very interesting indeed. SKyScripter gave me the following link on the IRC a few weeks ago. Very good read,

    http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/gods.htm

    Lastly, both LordGregGreg and myself (Been talking to him on AIM.) agree that if Darwin were still around today, he would fully agree with giving children a choice between Creation and Evolution. Charles Darwin was a philosopher, correct? Why would a philosopher with such a great mind want to keep a child from reasoning on his own?

    Of course, that's not fact. Just something I've been thinking...

    That's all. Thanks for listening to me ramble

    -Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg View Post
    No offence.. but they kinda did. I don't think it really matters how much they were persucuted or not. I supose that may slow it down a little bit.. but still. On a time scale basis, christianty has been around allot more than evolution, not to mention that during the dark ages everyone was kinda forced into a messued up type of christianity.

    and tara. I love your whole post. maybe just because of the einstein quotes. But regardless +rep.
    Negative.

    We claim to live in an Analog world, which although I somehow doubt, as there is no proof...

    Anyway, we believe that laws do not change place to place in Science. A bomb in America is a bomb in Russia.

    You could argue that "Change over Time," as it is called now, has had less time to become, but that is not true. Putting it in a timeline, yes, it would show Christianity formed next to Islam and after Judaism, with nearly two milleniums to come before Evolution is given its name.

    But you have forgotten that Evolution is a Scientifical one. It is based on assumptions from figures, statistics, historical "accounts," and so on.

    Evolution so claimed happens over a long time, and should leave physical evidence everywhere. One could argue that Evolution, put on a timeline, was millions of years before Judaism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    My post thoroughly ticked you off?! HA!
    1. You called me an idiot blatantly with a retarded link.
    2. I am able to send a wall of text at you because I have the knowledge to actually type it
    3. How can you question my Christianity and faith in God. The minister was right, neither you nor anyone else can judge me besides God. If you do not believe, try reading the Bible sometime (you know the big, important book)
    1. Yep
    2. Not much
    3. Reread, except this time, with a brain.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have a siggy to change.
    Active only during the Summer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs View Post
    Second, taking "under God" out of the Pledge of a country that was founded on God is completely nonsensical. If we do, I believe our status as a worldwide superpower will very quickly fall.
    The United States was not founded so much on God as the ideal of freedom from persecution because of religion. Therefore many people of specific religions fled and created states where they could (somewhat hypocritcally) practice their religion (and no one else's) freely. But there were several religions and some states were founded on complete religious freedom. Also, many people ran from England just to escape past crimes and start over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs View Post
    Thirdly, "Separation of Church and State" does not mean we have to keep God out of schools. It means we are not to impose any specific religion. "Intelligent Designer" does not fall under any one religion, thus, completely constitutional.
    Yes you could teach Intelligent design ONLY if you also equally taught atheism, evolution, monotheism, and religions with different beliefs such as reincarnation or multiple gods (because not all religions believe in God or that there is even just one God).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason2gs View Post
    Lastly, both LordGregGreg and myself (Been talking to him on AIM.) agree that if Darwin were still around today, he would fully agree with giving children a choice between Creation and Evolution. Charles Darwin was a philosopher, correct? Why would a philosopher with such a great mind want to keep a child from reasoning on his own?

    Of course, that's not fact. Just something I've been thinking...
    That is quite possible. But to get all this equally taught in schools would be EXTREMELY difficult because there are not only people who do not want Creationism taught, many religious leaders do not want Evolution taught either. It would have 3 sides, 2 that do not want the mix, and only 1 that does.

    @Jason2gs beneath me: I laughed too lol... just a typo, no big deal though. It is just funny like when people try to call you stupid and spell it stpuid or something.

    -ANGRY!-
    Okay JackLKrawl I am going to report you if you pull this crap one more time. I cite not one but six bible quotes for you that prove my point. You come and say I am an idiot and should try using my brain. What kind of a comeback is that?! If you EVER state anything else on this thread without some PROOF, I WILL REPORT YOU!

    READ MATTHEW 7:1
    "Judge not, that you be not judged"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLKrawl View Post
    But you have forgotten that Evolution is a Scientifical one.
    I seriously burst out laughing with this one.

    "Scientifical", I'm afraid, is not a word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    The United States was not founded so much on God as the ideal of freedom from persecution because of religion. Therefore many people of specific religions fled and created states where they could (somewhat hypocritcally) practice their religion (and no one else's) freely. But there were several religions and some states were founded on complete religious freedom. Also, many people ran from England just to escape past crimes and start over.
    I see. So why was "under God" put there in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    Yes you could teach Intelligent design ONLY if you also equally taught atheism, evolution, monotheism, and religions with different beliefs such as reincarnation or multiple gods (because not all religions believe in God or that there is even just one God).
    Atheism - Yes.
    Evolution - Yes.
    Creation - Yes.
    Monotheism - Belongs under Creation, I would think.
    Reincarnation - I don't think reincarnation tries to explain how life was created. No thanks.
    "Other religions" - This would be unconstitutional, as you said in a previous post.

    We're down to Atheism, Evolution, and Creation. That wasn't that hard, was it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412 View Post
    That is quite possible. But to get all this equally taught in schools would be EXTREMELY difficult because there are not only people who do not want Creationism taught, many religious leaders do not want Evolution taught either. It would have 3 sides, 2 that do not want the mix, and only 1 that does.
    I don't see how it would be any more complicated than, say, politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLKrawl View Post
    Negative.

    We claim to live in an Analog world, which although I somehow doubt, as there is no proof...
    Anyway, we believe that laws do not change place to place in Science. A bomb in America is a bomb in Russia.

    You could argue that "Change over Time," as it is called now, has had less time to become, but that is not true. Putting it in a timeline, yes, it would show Christianity formed next to Islam and after Judaism, with nearly two milleniums to come before Evolution is given its name.

    But you have forgotten that Evolution is a Scientifical one. It is based on assumptions from figures, statistics, historical "accounts," and so on.

    Evolution so claimed happens over a long time, and should leave physical evidence everywhere. One could argue that Evolution, put on a timeline, was millions of years before Judaism.
    hmm, thats a bit weird of a way to look at it.. its kinda a pointles thing to realy prove who has had more time to evolve their theory... the best i can see coming form it is "so yeah.. bear with us while we figure it out all the way"

    ayhow, jack and dusk, go to sleep, lol. yall both need it .
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    dan... I meant that I think it a place where science will always fail in... we can never really know about the starting time of the universe and neither can we really know everything about the universe as I said before. It will always be a mystery to us unless string theory is proven to us...

    I don't bieleave in the catholic church and niether my religion teacher either but I guess you could say I bieleave in god in a much more simpiler way... Priest use to keep Mexican Indians ignorent by telling them that devil will come after them if they don't do this or that... therefor I don't really have faith in the catholic church... Plus im Greek orthodox so I don't get the same bullcrap you guys might always hear at school...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbital View Post
    I don't bieleave in the catholic church and niether my religion teacher either but I guess you could say I bieleave in god in a much more simpiler way... Priest use to keep Mexican Indians ignorent by telling them that devil will come after them if they don't do this or that... therefor I don't really have faith in the catholic church... Plus im Greek orthodox so I don't get the same bullcrap you guys might always hear at school...
    be carefull not to target specific religons if you can, can really upset people.

    im pretty sure most every religon has their skeltons. And im pprety sure almost every mom has used the heaven and hell story to help their children behave, lol.

    And fogive me.. but the string theory.. im kinda rusty on it. As far as i remeber it kinda became obsolete and some other one replaced it.

    But assuming it was proven true. what would that mean? (about the universe etc)
    (i wiki ed it. and i found it interesting to note that the stirng theory has been disregarded as science, because they dont see any posible ways to flasify it in the near future. , food for thought)
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    I just saw a small documentart on it... Don't know to much about it... all I know is string theory can explain the existance of all things... it makes up the universe with 11 dimentions and there are 5 different types of string theory...

    I think a good way of putting it is that there infantly small and are tiny pieces of connected energy string in different shapes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    sorry if this sounds like a personal attack, i agree with all your other stuff
    No problem, I didn't take it as one, nor am I trying to attack religion in my debates, sorry if it comes out like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg
    What is this??! Why do you try to judge and sterotype something that you don't even understand!? Ok, look, let me make this definition right now. There are people who say they belive or feel they belive because they are weak and wanted superficial comfort (or perhaps the social comfort of church) and people who only belive because of people they know belive. That imho is not truely beliving. Sure, you can call people like that insecure, but not me. I did not become a beliver because anyone I knew was ( it was very much to the contrary and I got allot of crap because of it ), nor was it because I needed comfort. I mean, Hell, I don't even want to be a believer! I'm just stuck with evidence that I can not deny.
    I will have you know I understand religion better than you think. My group of friends at uni consists of 60% Christian, and these are not just 'casual' Christians. They are people who study the bible every morning, go to prayer meetings 3 times a week, attend church at least once a week etc. and we discuss it a lot.

    All of the stuff I have said about Christianity here has come from them, about how you have to love Jesus and that he died for you to get into heaven etc. so if you are saying they are incorrect, you are all contradicting each other.

    and i'm interested to know your evidence to believe in God. Please explain. Also on another note, I am interested to know if you personally believe in evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg
    and if heaven doesnt excist, ure still ok
    but you have wasted a lot of your life going to church, praying to someone who doesn't exist, trying to convert others to believe in a non existant God etc. That must be a blow to the head if you find out that all of your work was for nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg
    no. this is not true. In fact, even people who are athiest can get into heaven if they lead a good life. God is just and jesus is very forgiving. Everyone gets a fair shot at choosing to believe or not.
    You are contradicting my friends, who I assure you are devout Christians. They say that only by believing that Jesus died for you will get you into Heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGregGreg
    like i said before, i am complelty against the fu**ed up religions who got it all worng.
    How do you know yours is the right religion? Or even the right version of Christianity, since there seems to be so many different branches of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordGreGreg
    I asked, prayed and got an answer.
    How did you get an answer? Did something happen? Because that could be coincidence. Did he speak to you? Because that could be your subconscious giving you your answer. To me, praying is just looking inside of yourself and getting an answer. (Which I have no problem with)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412
    but many of them actually were brainwashed,
    They were not necessarily brain washed, its their own interpretation (or their parents / mentors) of the Koran. Also, its a very narrow minded thing to say, because you could say exactly the same thing about Christianity (about being brainwashed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk412
    Ah, Starblaster. You are sort of assuming this is Christians vs. atheists but it is actually theists vs. atheists
    You are of course correct, I am generalizing to the Christians, but thats because its the one I know most about; I have a lot of close Christian friends.


    Once again, I apologize if any of my posts sound like attacks, I am just very interested in the subject.
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