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Thread: Gay Marriage

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    America is supposed to be a country where everyone is free. You can do whatever you please and no can tell you what to do and not do. But America also claims its a Christian country.
    Majority of people are Christians != A Christian country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    Majority of people are Christians != A Christian country.
    True, and also, this country was founded off British dissidents who were Christian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    Majority of people are Christians != A Christian country.
    Im pretty sure it says on American money "In God We Trust"
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    Feel free to quote me! I love responses.

    First, let's think in a logic perspective here before bringing religion into play. To clarify something I will come out and say this now, I am trans-gendered. If you look at heterosexuals and homosexuals you can see they are both have the same concept--it's just a matter of having the power to accept them for who they are.

    Similarities:

    Heterosexuals: Preferred interest in the opposite sex--the majority find it uncomfortable to be around homosexuals. They also are only interested in female vagina's.

    Homosexuals: Preferred interest in the same sex--the majority find it uncomfortable to be around heterosexuals. They are also only interested in male penis's.

    Believe it or not both have the majority group of finding the other sexual orientation to be rather uncomfortable to be around. We are all the same on the inside though if you have a logical outlook on this debate. Both preferences have feelings which you must remember that if you have any common sense. Rather somebody is homosexual or heterosexual you should accept them for who they are apposed from downing on their sexual orientation.

    Heterosexuals have feelings just like homosexuals do. We are all people on this planet Earth and we all need to learn to accept others for who they are--not to down them because they have a different sexual orientation than you. Rather you are heterosexual or homosexual, if you are against the other preference then you are clearly closed-minded and you need to open your eyes to the real world. I'll go more in depth later.

    Regarding religion, I don't like bringing religion into the picture but I see a lot of users bringing "Christianity" into the picture saying homosexuality is wrong. Let me tell you one thing, when I was two years old I preferred to wear little girls clothing than male clothing. This is mainly caused by genetics--I'd take some insight into it since it's rather interesting how genetics can effect the psychological thinking pattern of your child/future child.

    Seeing that this is the case for any sexuality--you do not 'choose' to be heterosexual or homosexual, it's your personal preference. You can ask yourself rather you are heterosexual or homosexual, when did you discover you were the sexual orientation you are right now? If someone is born that way then why judge how someone is born? You might as well bring down handy-cap people that are physically disabled in that case; It's the same concept!

    If 'God' made Adam, Eve, and all man-kind then he might as well be classified as bisexual. This may sound like a joke to some people here though I make a logical point. Sexual orientation is not a choice, you were born that way and it's something you cannot help. You cannot help if you are attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex--it's just who you are! I'm not saying 'God' exists or not--I'm simply implying that if he does exist then he must have created homosexuals as well as heterosexuals.

    I have multiple outlooks on afterlife, so consider me agnostic. I'm not sure what I believe in nor am I going to bring down a religion.

    In conclusion, I make quite a few logical statements within this post and I hope to hear some feedback. I'm an open-minded person and I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Please feel free to state your opinions on what I just said and let's see if we can't come to a conclusion to this debate.

    Edit: I made this rather short, I will go into more detail if I am asked questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cycrosism View Post
    Im pretty sure it says on American money "In God We Trust"
    And what's your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    And what's your point?
    That because of something that was established years ago, it makes the US Christians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camo Developer View Post
    That because of something that was established years ago, it makes the US Christians.
    No, it doesn't. The US was founded as a secular country, and it still is. "In God We Trust" wasn't added to currency until 1956, and it was due to the second red scare and general McCarthyism around that time. It still exists today due to some dumb supreme court rulings saying that "God" refers to any sort of higher being (or whatever you choose to worship), and not just the Christian god.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    No, it doesn't. The US was founded as a secular country, and it still is. "In God We Trust" wasn't added to currency until 1956, and it was due to the second red scare and general McCarthyism around that time. It still exists today due to some dumb supreme court rulings saying that "God" refers to any sort of higher being (or whatever you choose to worship), and not just the Christian god.
    I know, but when it was decided to be added, the "God" meant the Christian God. When people see that phrase, their minds jump to the Christian God.


    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Well hopefully you will see the light. I mean staying close to god helped me a lot personally.

    Well back on topic. Okay so America is supposed to be a country where everyone is free. You can do whatever you please and no can tell you what to do and not do. But America also claims its a Christian country.

    So how is this supposed to work out? Obviously being gay is not allowed in the world of Christianity. But then you claim that your Christian based country is also free. You have the freedom to do what you like. So why do people go after gays, saying it violates Christianity. When were supposed to be living in America which is a free country.

    In Iran, and Saudia Arabia, being gay is prohibited. You can't really do anything because they are Islamic governments with firm laws. So if your gay and your in those countries, then it's recommended to get out.

    America needs to get it's priorities straight. You can't create BS for gays when you claim your country is a free country.
    I don't know how I missed this post, it's very good. I really don't know how to best answer those points. Personally, I view America as a free country and not a Christian country. That's just my view though, and I think that is a good way to view it and make some sense out of it.

    @Hockey, I couldn't agree more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Well hopefully you will see the light. I mean staying close to god helped me a lot personally.
    I think he has already seen the light.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post
    I think he has already seen the light.
    I see what you did there!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camo Developer View Post
    I know you're referencing your "boy wants to marry his grandma" here, and other things as well. However, that's a matter of what's morally right.
    Ah this "supreme morality" that somehow seems to be different between various groups of people.

    Would you say marrying your cousin is "morally right"? Not long ago it was considered pretty a pretty common practice even in first world countries.

    Also, who am i to impose my morality on other people?

    Why? What do you suppose? A "New Marriage" for the homosexuals?
    Pretty much. But actually now that i think of it i have more of a problem with same-sex couples engaging in the actual ritual of marriage than their actual legal status afterwards which i could care less about.

    So i don't see much of a problem with just letting same sex couples have the same "married" legal status and all the rights with it. On the other hand, now that we're talking about it, i don't personally see a reason why we shouldn't let an 18 year old boy and his grandma/pa experience that same legal status as well.

    The only thing that holds me back from being completely in favor of same-sex marriage is that it would mean the modification of age-old traditions and rituals because some small minority suddenly wants to be a part of it as well. But there isn't really any law defending rituals, so people can really do whatever they want.

    I really don't know. Same-sex marriage will be legalized everywhere eventually, no question about it. And i agree that same-sex couples should have all the rights regular couples do. I'm just not sure how i want it to be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Camo Developer View Post
    I was raised in the Christian belief, but as I've grown up, I've started questioning a lot of things about it. Often times it means I get death stares from the over Christian family members.
    Same thing here as well. I was raised in a Christian family, my parents and sisters are not hardcore believers, but I still get some judging looks if I speak my mind about a higher power. I try not to be disrespectful of anyone's personal beliefs, but simply bring out my own doubts about a God. They seem to think I am an atheist, and even if I try to fully explain agnosticism to them they don't fully see the difference.

    The only reason I am still part of the church is because my girlfriend wants a church wedding (some day in the future). I'm not especially proud about abusing my "Christian" rights as I'm not a believer just to get a wedding for my possible future wife, but I don't really know what else to do.

    EDIT: Just realised, sorry for the offtopic. These kind of talks often get sidetracked towards religion, you know.
    Last edited by Mr. Bottomtooth; 12-08-2011 at 04:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Camo Developer View Post
    Only one of those pertain to your homosexuality is not genetics point. As for the others, I've read in the past. The brain is an amazing muscle, and the mind is a powerful tool. Just because these studies may work on one group of people, doesn't mean it will on another group.

    I would love to debate more, and I will later, but I'm heading home
    The secret to not being affected by things that get to us on a psychological level is to acknowledge that they affect us. At that point, you can do something about it. People who claim otherwise are lying to themselves. When you have read the reference about genetics and homosexuality, I can provide further ones -- you know, as GLADoS would say: for science.

    But when you decide you want to try and prove homosexuality is genetic, feel free to start using sources of your own! Until then, I'm sure you won't be claiming that homosexuality is something you are born with, because that statement has not been ratified in this thread yet. What has been ratified is that it is not genetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixienormous View Post
    I feel physically sick even thinking about gays and avoid them at all times.
    Quote Originally Posted by dixienormous View Post
    You talk about their feelings, truthfully I do not care how they feel. I think they're gross and dangerous animals. You fall into the "they're sensitive being's with feelings" group. I laugh at that group and call the sissies who were brainwashed full of politically correct nonsense.
    I understand how you feel, but you must make an effort to control your emotions when you talk about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    Come on, surely even you can tell this is missing the point. Gay people want the same rights where they can marry the person they love.

    I'm not sure, you used some pretty intimidating and hurtful language about gay people a few posts back. The issue clearly means a lot to you.
    I'm very sorry you feel that way. It was not my intention to be intimidating or hurtful. Homosexuality is a topic I've dealt with extensively in the past, and I know numerous homosexuals, which means I go over it rather frequently. I'm wholly convinced that it is not a rewarding lifestyle, and one which people can choose to avoid, but it's only this latter part that I've tried to present on this thread. That said, I never intended to make it seem like I would actively try and stop gay marriage rights in the United States. I don't feel the United States government, or any country, is qualified for enforcing personal moral beliefs -- specially considering that these hypocritical entities are lacking in many areas.

    For example, in my eyes, a marriage of two fornicators is also of no worth. If the government were to enforce the moral standards of the Christian God, no politician would be able to take the scrutiny. Afterall, even if they were perfect in every other way, biblically, the will to govern others is Satanic in nature -- he was the first to want to establish his will on others even though that did not belong to him. People who claim to be Christian and yet choose to enforce their beliefs through the political system instead of waiting on God are NOT Christian. As Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." And again, in John 17:16, Jesus spoke about his disciples saying: "They are not of the world, even as I am not of it." How can you not be a part of the world and yet try and manipulate it's political systems?

    And what Jesus told political and religious leaders of his time still applies to most of them today: "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." - John 8:44

    So you see, I have no interest in meddling in political affairs; like whether homosexuals have the right to marry or not legally. However, I still feel that the point I tried to present -- that of homosexuality being a choice -- was exposed to more or less the best of my ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bottomtooth View Post
    What is unnatural? Who decides what's unnatural and natural? The bible? Religion? Are you serious? If there's a God, and if this God says homosexuality is a sin, why would this God even create gays in the first place? To test their faith? Why would a loving God create a human and make him gay if it's a sin, and put him through a lifetime of mental torture, as he now can't express his sexuality without going to hell?

    The fact is there is no natural and unnatural, how can nature create something unnatural? Homosexuality can be found in animals all over the board. Did these animals choose to be gay? It's most likely nature's way to try and limit overpopulation. Nothing "unnatural" about it.
    Men and Women complement each other naturally. Homosexual men or women do not. The fact that, for example, lesbians have to use tools to reach orgasm, shows that it is unnatural. If it were natural, nothing alien would have to be introduced.

    As for God creating homosexuals, you are taking it as a given that homosexuals are born that way. This is fallacious as no evidence has been submitted on this thread that proves conclusively that homosexuals are born that way. Once that has been done, you may re-establish your question.

    To simplify our discussion, let me define natural with dictionary.com:
    "existing in or formed by nature"
    As opposed to artificial, which is the antonym of natural:
    "made by human skill, produced by humans"

    While homosexual acts have been found in animals, this does little more than prove that sexual drives are natural. There are dogs that prefer to hump toys -- it's based on instinct. Some animals eat their weak children -- also based on instinct.

    So tell me, would eating children be considered unnatural for humans? Yes. Do you know why? Because unlike animals, humans are not driven by instinct. We have the ability to reason unlike any other creature on earth. This allows us to differentiate between right and wrong, to think, and plan. We have the ability to reason love unlike animals which are instinct based.

    An animal humps a toy and feels pleasure. They are rewarded with pleasure for their act. They are conditioned to like it. A human, however, can reason: "This is my child -- weak or not, and it is my duty to protect them." And also: "A woman and another woman cannot, without artificial methods, give each other pleasure. It must be unnatural."

    Instinct is natural. That's why homosexuality in animals means nothing. They cannot "choose" because they cannot reason like us. Basic logic is natural in humans. That's why ignoring it and engaging in homosexual acts is unnatural for humans. Whether it be with women or men. Likewise, adultery, while it happens in the animal kingdom, is not natural for humans. We should know better.



    Acting like an animal is unnatural for humans.

    But people are free to act however they want. I won't stop them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Littma View Post
    Regarding religion, I don't like bringing religion into the picture but I see a lot of users bringing "Christianity" into the picture saying homosexuality is wrong. Let me tell you one thing, when I was two years old I preferred to wear little girls clothing than male clothing. This is mainly caused by genetics--I'd take some insight into it since it's rather interesting how genetics can effect the psychological thinking pattern of your child/future child.

    Seeing that this is the case for any sexuality--you do not 'choose' to be heterosexual or homosexual, it's your personal preference. You can ask yourself rather you are heterosexual or homosexual, when did you discover you were the sexual orientation you are right now? If someone is born that way then why judge how someone is born? You might as well bring down handy-cap people that are physically disabled in that case; It's the same concept!
    Please refer to my previous posts for evidence that Homosexuality is not genetic. For a shortcut, click on this excerpt of one of them. It includes several reasons which you may find interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sriro View Post
    Grief seeds, your statement that there is evidence that people are born gay or straight is incorrect.
    The above should more or less cover all my grounds. If anyone feels I missed something, feel free to tell me. However, I do intend on closing off the discussion with some people soon with some closing statements. That way I don't have to make such enormous posts, and can focus on the newcomers to the thread.

    The above was not checked for grammar, spelling, or coherency. Forgive my mistakes.
    This post is enormous, because I refused to split it into multiple posts. Why?
    BECAUSE DOUBLE POSTERS DESERVE TO DIE!!!!!!! Just kidding, heh.
    Last edited by Sriro; 12-08-2011 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Double Posting Warning

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    Thanks Sriro for the post, it was very clear and respectful. And I see your point of view.

    The problem with subjects where religion often comes into picture is that the debators base their arguements on different things. Christians, in this case, have a mindset that there are some ultimate truths in this world that you live by. Such as that God created Earth and man, and that affection between man and woman is the way it should be. The natural way.

    Agnostics and atheists base their arguements on the mindset that there is no ultimate truth. No meaning. We are just animals created and formed by evolution. Therefore the only right and wrong, natural and unnatural, is what man decides. Not God, or some other higher power.

    So it's very hard to come into an agreement on what is natural, as I personally do not believe there is such a term to begin with. I don't claim to know who or what created everything, is homosexuality a decision or genetic, or what is natural or unnatural. I base my opinions on facts (that, at the time, seem true) and to the truth that there is a lot in this universe that is, and probably always will be, unknown. The only difference between Christianity (religion) and agnostism is that I don't fill the blank spots (the unkown) with religion, and then treat my beliefs as the truth.

    I apologize if the text is hard to follow, my mind was rambling while writing this, and it's getting harder and harder to express myself in a foreign language in a conversation that is getting more and more philosophical.

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    Throwing this out there.. why is the male "G-spot" inside the anus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nava2 View Post
    Throwing this out there.. why is the male "G-spot" inside the anus?

    "its your prostate moron, and its not supposed to be stimulated like that"
    that's what google told me when i asked it your question. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post
    I think he has already seen the light.
    The dark light .
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Well, lot's of people disagree with me, and the sad thing is that I think most of the people who agree with me and to scared to go against this community/America.
    Just to point out, America is the biggest hypocrisy I've ever heard of in my life.
    This "Land of the Free", ect, ect is one big illusion. How you treat immigrants who come from other countries (like Mexicans) is revolting. I hear them called cockroaches, parasites, ect - yet they have almost no rights and are getting less daily. It's sick.

    Agnostics tend to be people who campaign other minority's rights, but that's just because you are a minority. If you fools (face it, you are that(saying this to people talking about Godly proof only!)), want to ask questions about who created God, then I want to know who created you, who created the tiny little bacterium that crawled out of the sea and over 4 billion years ago managed to evolve into a human (so called theory of evolution). Who created that atoms that make up that baterium, down to the last neutrino? Let me guess - it was all there! Like a magic show! I think people are agnostics because they hate the fact that someone is more powerful then them - truly resent it. Christianity makes sense. Maybe somethings don't (but you believe is what matters), but we know there was a miraculous man - named Jesus, who died for our sins. Don't ask me questions that only God can answer - I don't pretend to be him (by being atheists you make yourself God's I'm sure).
    Sriro.
    As you have pointed out, I am a sinner. I don't deny that at all (without any resistance at all) - for there has been only one man who has not sinned.

    To all gays and there lovers, face it, is is unnatural and sick. You have brought it upon yourselves. It is wrong for a dude to bang another dude NO MATTER what way you look at it. Males goes with females.
    "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
    Leviticus 20:13
    "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders."
    1 Corinthians 6:9
    As for lesbians, they are not nearly as offensive, but they are still wrong in my opinion.
    If you can find something against lesbians in the Bible, please show me.

    As for RISK, you never answered my question, but let me use your analogies with the apples.
    If you people didn't know, you can have a barrel of healthy apples, but if you have even one bad apple, it will cause the rest of the apples in the barrel to rot (over time). This is just like homosexuality. One apple started rotting, then another, then another, and soon the whole barrel is starting to rot (except for a few). To survive, society has to throw out these bad apples - not to eat them like they were normal apples.
    How we are rusting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dixienormous View Post
    I want to know who created you, who created the tiny little bacterium that crawled out of the sea and over 4 billion years ago managed to evolve into a human (so called theory of evolution). Who created that atoms that make up that baterium, down to the last neutrino? Let me guess - it was all there! Like a magic show!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bottomtooth View Post
    I base my opinions on facts (that, at the time, seem true) and to the truth that there is a lot in this universe that is, and probably always will be, unknown. The only difference between Christianity (religion) and agnostism is that I don't fill the blank spots (the unkown) with religion, and then treat my beliefs as the truth.
    As pointed out, I don't know where it all came from. There are theories (I'm sure you have heard) but I don't know it as a fact. I accept the fact that there are things I can't understand in this world. I don't have the urge to fill all the blank spaces with a God. But then again there might be a God, I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by dixienormous View Post
    I think people are agnostics because they hate the fact that someone is more powerful then them - truly resent it.
    ^
    "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
    Leviticus 20:13
    "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders."
    1 Corinthians 6:9
    This is exactly what I meant when I talked about the ultimate truth Christians have. These quotes from the bible mean nothing to me. It is a wonderful book with many good lessons on how to live life. But I don't take it as the absolute voice of rightness. There is no debate going on whether the Bible says homosexuality is wrong or not, I think we can all agree on that.

    And please don't call other people a fool only because they don't share the same view on the world as you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dixienormous View Post
    If you fools (face it, you are that(saying this to people talking about Godly proof only!))
    I only called those who fulfilled the above fools.
    Now, tell me "Mr. Bottomtooth", do you think one dude banging another dude is natural? Please explain your answer. Do not tell me that you respect their right, etc, etc, is it natural for one dude to bang another - explain the answer.

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    Hey dixie, when did you choose to not be gay? Since you say being gay is a choice, when did you choose to be hetero?

    Same question goes to anyone who says being gay is a choice.
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    Don't be ridiculous. You do not choose to be straight, you are that by default. You choose to be gay.

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    No, that's a cop out. If being gay is a choice, when did you decide to be straight? Because with a choice, there are two options. In this case, gay or not. When did you make that decision?
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    Alright,

    as I don't claim to possess the right to proclaim something natural or unnatural, and you seem to want a "yes or no" asnwer, I would have to say yes, I do think homosexuality is natural.

    I personally could never think about kissing or having sex with another man, but that's because I am (drum roll) straight. I can imagine kissing and having sex with another man is the most natural thing in a world to a gay man.

    So, "dixienormous", my answer is yes.
    Last edited by Mr. Bottomtooth; 12-08-2011 at 11:08 PM.

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    I did not decide to be straight, get it into your mind. I was born straight. Born, do you know what that means? It is unnatural for a dude to like dudes. It is also artificial. If you like dudes, your a freak. Your acting like being gay is the norm lmfao.

    Bottomtooth, you did not explain yourself. Saying "I can imagine kissing and having sex with another man is the most natural thing in a world to a gay man" is not an answer because you are not a gay man and that's hearsay.
    Gays are freaks. Their proclaimed love is an artificial hope they've managed to tattoo into their brains. They even try to convince themselves they didn't have a choice - totally wrong. You are born straight as a pole.

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