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Thread: Logical Proof of God's Existence

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timer View Post
    It can't spontaneously create it self...
    And god can when he never even existed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timer View Post
    here, If god doesn't exist, where the hell did all of this start from, is not like, -POOF-, oh shit! Matter randomly created it self! ~~ OUT OF NOTHING.
    where did god start from then?

    you've offered god as an explaination of this, but god needs an explaination himself.



    by the way, there are actually times of matter creating itself.

    when you're in a vacuum, its not actually empty but particles get randomly created out of nothing, they are always a particle and anti-particle pair, so they annialate each other very soon afterwards.

    however, sometimes they are created close to a black hole, and if it just happens that the anti-particle is swallowed by the black hole, but the particle is not, then we will observe the particle and the mass of the black hole will decreace (since anti-particles have negative mass)


    also matter can be created from energy
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToF View Post
    Faith gives people hope. Without Faith people would be nowhere?

    And as for God? Fuck dat, its not logical that theres a guy running about on clouds to be honest.
    How could there be no god if theres faith? What do you have faith in?
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    How could there be no god if theres faith? What do you have faith in?
    Faith in humanity is one. Although I'm sorely lacking in that department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    How could there be no god if theres faith? What do you have faith in?

    Faith is a feeling created by humans, usually when in despair or in need of something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    so you're telling me that the only reason you dont kill people is because you've got God looking over your shoulder?

    if God were to leave for a while, you'd immediatly start murdering people?

    somethings wrong with you dude.
    Look. You are putting words into my mouth now. Those are ridiculous accusations... I grew up learning morals from my parents, who learned from theirs, and so on. I dont feel as God is looking over my shoulder, but from the values that I have been taught I feel that they are what is "right". I choose to follow them because of this, not because I fear judgment and punishment (wrath of God). I dont judge you because you are an atheist, so why would you go out of your way to put, "somethings wrong with you dude". I am a firm believer that people should live out their lives in whatever way makes them happy, so long as it is not a negative impact to others. I for one am happy in keeping my faith, it keeps me going in this shit-hole world that we live in. And back to my previous post...

    All I am saying is that without faith our world would be worse off (as in we never had it to begin with). From the evolutionary standpoint, we could have evolved a "faith gene" over years, which kept people sane during bad times. Over time it could have developed into the religions that people hold to now in our modern days (Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam... ect.) where "morals and values" were established.

    Now pretend that this "faith gene" never was evolved. Do you think that you would be living in a world that promotes peace over war? A world that looks down upon the harm of others and tries to improve the lives of others. I dont.

    And I certainly wouldnt think that people would hold to the morals and values that atheists in Sweden hold to today if it werent for faith.

    EDIT:

    And as a side note, doesnt "also matter can be created from energy" conflict with the law of conservation of matter?
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    Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can be transformed into other forms of matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TViYH View Post
    Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can be transformed into other forms of matter.
    *or energy (according to Einstein's theory)

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    matter and energy are the same thing,
    the laws are not violated in the same way they are not violated when you change kinetic energy into potential energy.

    you remember the LHC in switzerland? that creates matter from energy.

    the particles go round and round close to the speed of light so they have a lot of energy, and when they collide new particles get created.

    principle of conservation isnt violated because if you create 1 kilogram of matter it will cost you 3 x 10^8 joules of energy.

    also you can go the other way and create energy from matter. Stars, atom bombs and nuclear power stations do it.


    it seems to me like your saying "It doesnt matter if faith is wrong, people should believe in it anyway, since it makes us good"



    as for morals and values,
    they cant come from religion, since many religions teach so many bad, immoral things. to take the christian example, you only need to read leviticus or deuternonomy to see what im talking about.

    wherever you go in the world, regardless of religion or faith, people are generally nice to each other, they dont lie, they dont steal or cheat and they pay their taxes.
    if someone doesnt do these things, normally the rest of his community look down on him somehow.

    if you want to take a evolutionary point of view. piece is better then war because piece provides a stable and secure society where bringing up children is easier and safer.
    to risk stating the obvious, in war it is hard to reproduce and have your children survive to reproductive age.

    the reason people are nice is because in societies where humans evolved, almost everyone was related to each other, so when you were nice to someone, you were being nice to part of yourself (your genes)
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerauchert View Post
    Blah blah blah blah blah
    Almost everyone described in the Bible that didn't believe in the Christian god seems to have been described as either murdering, gambling, corrupted or [insert everything else that sends you to hell here]. It's mainly because of that and the fact that people want to feel good about themselves that lots of Christians think Arabs and other non-Christians (at least in America, so non-American/Europeans too) have no morals. Yakman's accusations are not without reason .


    Quote Originally Posted by gerauchert View Post
    Now pretend that this "faith gene" never was evolved. Do you think that you would be living in a world that promotes peace over war? A world that looks down upon the harm of others and tries to improve the lives of others. I dont.
    What would happen if we had faith for the future and how it could be improved instead of our own post-death fears? There wouldn't be any "my god is better than your god and to prove it I'll show you that your god won't protect you" fights or wars. We'd realize that to keep the future of mankind going we'd have to work together. You can't act like atheists don't see a reason to live or else they wouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerauchert View Post
    Now pretend that this "faith gene" never was evolved. Do you think that you would be living in a world that promotes peace over war? A world that looks down upon the harm of others and tries to improve the lives of others. I dont.
    Religion causes war. Why? Because they never teach people to accept other people's beliefs. Religion causes the whole "You don't believe what I do and thus you are evil." scenario. Without religion people would have less conflicting beliefs ; thus, allowing people to have a better chance to get along. Think about it.

    If there was no God/gods we wouldn't be having this conversation or any of the other religious argument thread conversations. People got mad it a couple of those threads. They wouldn't have if there was no religion.


    People don't get mad about science. Has anybody ever killed somebody because they thought Hydrogen should be named Nydrogen? I seriously doubt it. These are some words that you should ponder...

    Imagine there's no heaven
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today...

    Imagine there's no countries
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one
    That sums up my opinion on how life should be lived. People need to chill out and discover that every person will not agree with them. Learn to accep those people as other humans and we can stop the senseless hate and violence.

    Also
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruroken View Post
    Your logic is flawed
    Did you even think about what you were typing? Did you read it back to yourself? If God exists then God exists...yes that would be true... When you take proofs in geometry you are going to fail really bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TViYH View Post
    Faith is a feeling created by humans, usually when in despair or in need of something.
    That's a very simplistic attitude. The reality as I understand it is that "faith" is not just an accident of human thought, it's an essential characteristic of the human species.

    Since faith will often cause people to act in a way that puts others' interests above their own, it would be selected against as far as natural selection is concerned. However, since faith has been somehow selected FOR throughout human evolution, that suggests that it is a beneficial characteristic.

    From a purely scientific and historical perspective, one could therefore conclude that people WITHOUT faith are at a disadvantage to those with faith.

    Now, if you can accept that logical premise, then why would anyone go to extreme lengths to deny their humanity and expunge faith from their life, when logic says it's a beneficial characteristic?

    gerauchert isn't far off, actually. There IS some sort of "faith gene" encoded into our being.


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    ..Then do atheists lack that gene?

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    Yes, they are lesser than all other humans that have faith in something...

    The only reason that people without faith have been at a disadvantage is because throughout history the people with faith have brutally tortured them for not sharing the same beliefs. Strange that they are against violence and hate but as soon as they find a person that is different they can all come together to make them pay for the sin of individuality.

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    I personally think Darwinism is pretty close

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    From my point of view, not believing in god, people failed making a story for how life came on earth. You see, (afaik)according to bible there just were Adam and Eve, (So don't complain about dark matter just 'poffing'), who were banished from the garden, but they have no explanation for other animals? That will work for long because people want to know about their origin, people who work in scientifical jobs, e.g archeology etc, don't believe in god and won't be any trouble for church by asking "What about animals".

    Animals are just like humans, except for the size of our brain, humans aren't some divine creatures, and for me, this is one of the things that science wins church in. Church explained only humans, I doubt that if you ask a priest or some other dude who just knows the bible well, that he will tell you animals also ate god's (tempted to say chips, but I'll do my best not to ) fruit, and were banished to earth.

    Also, where did god come from, since it seems to be the origin of everything? Maybe this all could work, but no-one has any idea where has this god come from, and they'll just say it has been there forever and will be, or something like that, but why the hell do people who believe in god claim so while they deny that dark matter can't just pop into the world?!

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    i believe in god, but to be honest, i dont believe in Jesus, or the Bible for that matter.

    if you look at religion all over the world, it all has the same umm for lack of a better word perspective. its all worshiping a higher power, as they we ow we came to being, jsut interpetted (i cant spell i know) differently.

    just my opinion, dont call me a hypocrite for not believing in the bible, i just think that the stories in the bible are not meant to be taken literally, and waaaay to many people do.
    “Ignorance, the root and the stem of every evil.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by n3ss3s View Post
    From my point of view, not believing in god, people failed making a story for how life came on earth. You see, (afaik)according to bible there just were Adam and Eve, (So don't complain about dark matter just 'poffing'), who were banished from the garden, but they have no explanation for other animals? That will work for long because people want to know about their origin, people who work in scientifical jobs, e.g archeology etc, don't believe in god and won't be any trouble for church by asking "What about animals".

    Animals are just like humans, except for the size of our brain, humans aren't some divine creatures, and for me, this is one of the things that science wins church in. Church explained only humans, I doubt that if you ask a priest or some other dude who just knows the bible well, that he will tell you animals also ate god's (tempted to say chips, but I'll do my best not to ) fruit, and were banished to earth.



    Also, where did god come from, since it seems to be the origin of everything? Maybe this all could work, but no-one has any idea where has this god come from, and they'll just say it has been there forever and will be, or something like that, but why the hell do people who believe in god claim so while they deny that dark matter can't just pop into the world?!
    Thats the problem about Christianity. They dont fully explain everything, and make new editions to the bible every year. So the bible is not gods words anymore. Instead its us humans. (No im not being racist to christians. Im just saying that flaw is big against athiests.) Try studying or read about islam once. It will answer most of your guys questions.
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    I said that from the start. The modern day bible is filled with the churches bullshit and mis-translations.

    And as for atheists having less faith? Thats a bit simplistic too, then. They have to believe in something about the world, maybe they believe in Evolutionism? Just because not everyone believes in Creationism doesn't mean they are not faithful. An atheist guy marries, is he not very faithful towards his wife? Right. You cant say someone who is a non-believer has more or less faith.

    And n3ss3s, you bring up a good point, Christians believe in the Creationism theory, that God creates everything, but they do not except the big bang, that matter was created, but Afaik, God = Matter?

    According to Einstein's threory anyway, we can see the past, and we can see the future. We can go back into the past, as we can go to where we previousley was, but we cannot go into the future as the future is already planned, so we cannot change the future, only live what we are going to do. Also according to Einstein, we are living something that has happened already, so we are seconds behind the future, which has been planned out, so we can see the real unmapped future ahead of us, we just cant reach it to change it.
    Jus' Lurkin'

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    How does your argument prove anything?

    - The concept of A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad is not logically impossible.

    - If A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad exists, then it HAS TO exist, and it is impossible for A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad to not exist.

    - If A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad does not exist, then it is impossible for A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad to exist.

    - The idea of A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad is not impossible, so the last post is refuted. Therefore, A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad exists.


    Apparently I just proved there's a world of giant talking monkeys who are all named Chad.

    So how is the idea of a god not impossible?
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    .... Obama had the devil jump out of his ass, run and stab Hillary in the back...
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    The "setup" he used to prove this is flawed.

    Me falling asleep right now is not logically possible.

    If I fell asleep, I would have to be asleep, and it would not be impossible for me to be asleep.

    If I am not falling asleep, then it is impossible for me to fall asleep.

    Me falling asleep is not impossible, so the last point is refuted. Therefore, me falling asleep is possible.



    But. I'm not falling asleep.

    GTFO WITH YOUR MADE UP THEORIES.

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    Religion and faith are not just based on stories. They are based on "religious experience". In other words, people hear something, and they have a religious experience by having a feeling of burning or excitement or some physiological response that confirms the story to them as being true. Without that religious experience, a story is just a story.

    That's why the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't catching on. It's a story without any sort of accompanying religious experience.

    That physiological response is real. It can be measured by scientific instruments when it occurs. And as I said before, if you look at it from a purely scientific perspective, that physiological response is a part of our species, and has been retained through evolution. Logic would suggest that it confers a selective advantage. Since the primary way that it was manifested itself historically has been through embracing religion or mysticism, I think there is a strong logical argument that religion is beneficial to people.

    There is also a strong economic argument, based on Game Theory. The general idea behind Game Theory is that between two choices, "rational" people will always choose the one most likely to benefit themselves at the expense of others. It's often represented as a 2x2 matrix.

    3/3 5/0
    0/5 1/1

    The first number is the benefit person A gets by making choices, and the second number is the benefit person B gets.

    If both make choice 1, then they both get 3 units. If A chooses 1 and B chooses 2, then A gets 5 and B gets 0. If both choose 2, then they both get 1.

    Now Game Theory would predict that both people should always choose 2. But if you look at it from a group perspective, that would be the worst outcome of all. The only reason a "rational person" would choose 1 is if there's some other game being played. Religion could be this other game.

    For instance, if your religious beliefs promise you eternal life and happiness for making choice 1, then you would be more prone to do it, even if choice 1 isn't the best for you individually. If you were in a religious community where everyone was making choice 1, then the group as a whole would benefit much more than a group of "rational actors" making the rational, selfish choice #2.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Timer View Post
    here, If god doesn't exist, where the hell did all of this start from, is not like, -POOF-, oh shit! Matter randomly created it self! ~~ OUT OF NOTHING.
    Where did the "God" came from? Created itself?! Right... That makes even less sense, doesn't it?

    I am an atheist, and PROUD of it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Widget View Post
    1). This apple is not necessary

    The world doesn't care if it exists or not

    2). This apple is as so defined either exists or does not exist.

    It can't half-exist

    3). If this apple exists, he necessarily exists.

    If this apple exists, it has to exist.

    4). If this apple does not exist, he necessarily does not exist.

    If this apple does not exist, it cannot exist.

    5). The idea of apples are not self-contradictory.

    Apples can make perfectly logical sense.

    6). This apple exists.

    Since it is not impossible for this apple to exist, and since if this apple does not exist, it won't exist, this apple exists.


    But wait!
    I have no apple. There must be something wrong here then.


    Mind expanding step/point 6?

    That makes absolutely no sense. You said that since you don't have an apple, they don't exist. I don't have a telephone right now, does that mean they don't exist?

    Anyways, this whole thread doesn't make sence either...

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    - If God does not exist, then it is impossible for God to exist.
    Esteban was saying that since it's possible that God can exist, he must. I was saying that even though it's possible for me to have an apple, I still don't have an apple. Just because God could exist doesn't mean he has to (assuming he/it could in the first place)

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