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Thread: Logical proof god DOESNT exist

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    Quote Originally Posted by bullzeye95 View Post
    The thought that Earth is spherical was around long before the Torah, Bible, and Quran. It goes back even before Greece. Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth:

    That is just one example. There are many more listed.

    Also, though the earth isn't perfectly round, it's not really shaped like an egg either..

    Nice did not know that :P
    But as far as for the egg shape, It more like an ostrich's egg shaped kinda, because it is said that the poles are flattened on the Earth, and there isn't really any other shape that it is similar too...

    Nonetheless, the mountains are a hard one, unless I'm a bit wrong once again?

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    you can't explain things with logic, logic is an opinionated belief.

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    All I can say is there will never be an answer that will satisfy everyone until God comes back.
    I believe in God.
    I also believe everyone can get something positive out of the New Testament of the Bible whether you believe in God or not. Jesus' teachings are in genius.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh81193 View Post
    you can't explain things with logic, logic is an opinionated belief.
    logic is the only thing that can be trusted
    everything else is false

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macrosoft View Post
    logic is the only thing that can be trusted
    everything else is false
    Eh, not really. More like everything else is biased. Logic backed by facts is unbiased and can be trusted so long as there are no fallacies (circular logic, etc.)

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    groog, i will rise to the challange, but remember I'm not the same person as The Claw, so you may find we have different styles of reasoning.

    i would like to ask you this.
    Suppose that god exists, which god?

    why do you believe in the Judaeo-Christian god instead of say, Allah, Thor, Apollo, Zeus, Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn?



    Quote Originally Posted by groog View Post
    God does give free will. You have free will to obey him and love him. He does not predestine people to hell because while he knows the future of your willingness to accept him, he leaves it up to you to decide fully. You can say "well why did he create me if he knew I was going to hell?" (I've asked the same question), but you got to remember. You're the one deciding to love him or not. Call it unjust, I don't understand it either. Personally it makes me angry, but I need to ponder over it more.
    you call this an answer? you havent put any point forward and you've just admitted you dont know.
    you havent answered The Claw's point at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by groog View Post
    In some points you are right, but the most of it is wrong. Let me first say that God rarely (if ever) intervenes in our lives. This is Old Testament thinking. In the old testament god did intervene, and the world was much different.
    it doesnt matter that he only rarely intervenes, miracles form a massive part of the christians religon.
    mary giving becoming pregnant while being a virgin was supposedly a miracle for example.

    miracles are extraordinary claims, and they require extraordinary.
    no such evidence has even been brought forth, so the logical rational mind has to assume that miracles never happened.


    Quote Originally Posted by groog View Post
    God HAS NO form. He is without mater, space, and outside the laws of time and physics. He is infinitely everywhere, even when no space existed. He resides outside time and all things, it is for you to comprehend this.
    this sounds like you've defined god out of existance.
    the universe is everything, and if god is outside the universe, he is nothing.

    At best, he is completely irrelevant, at worst he is non-existent.



    this is quite an annoying problem with talking about god, he doesnt actually have a definition that everyone agrees on, so if you show one definition to be wrong, people will just switch to another definition.
    Or to put it another way, you cannot kill that which doesnt exist.




    Quote Originally Posted by groog View Post
    "When did you stop beating up your sister? Yes or No?"

    Does the question make any sense? No it doesn't, this question doesn't require a yes or no answer, just like your question doesn't require a yes or no answer. It must be explained. The answer to my question would probably be something like- "I never beat up my sister!". And the answer to your question is that this kind of question isn't fathomable. That is like saying, "Which is longer, a line or a ray?". It's like dividing by 0, your calculator would read "Syntax Error". Well if you ask this question it's like dividing by 0, while it makes sense to you, in reality it's not a valid question. Right now, I'm reading "Syntax Error".

    the question does make sense, it just rests on an assumsion that you used to beat up your sister. That assumsion is false, for me at least.
    But the question still makes sense.




    Quote Originally Posted by groog View Post
    We cannot understand Gods ways completely because he didn't tell us. And if he did you cannot be sure we could comprehend it (maybe that's why he didn't tell us). I'm not claiming to know how God thinks, if anyone does spit in there face for me and call them a liar. Probably like you, I hate 95% of Christians (or maybe you hate all of them). I find Christians ignorant and close minded. But just because most Christians are stupid doesn't mean you can say Christianity is false. And God left us the key to Heaven in the Bible. It tells us exactly how to get to Heaven. And DONT listen to the STUPID Catholics, they are the worst people on the planet. They don't even read the Bible! They make up stuff all the time.
    I'm not sure what your point is in this bit, it seems to me to be a wishy-washy way of saying you agree with The Claw.


    Quote Originally Posted by groog View Post
    Logic is also the most powerful tool to prove God MOST CERTAINLY exists. And I can explain it very easily. But to save you the time of reading it, I will give you a 3 minute video. It's very short and it explains everything fine.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEXGK...e=channel_page

    If you want me to replay you must address all my points and the video. Too many times in religious debates is that the Atheist side doesn't address all the information and they just pull out new information. I call this being a coward and I assume they acknowledge my points are correct.

    that video had many mistakes and logical fallacies.


    He says "matter cannot be created or destroyed, scientists have tried to do this and failed"

    I guess that guy is ignorant of the advances in physics in the last 150 years.

    matter is destroyed all the time, not only is it destroyed in the heart of nuclear weapons and power stations, it also happens naturally in the core of the sun and every star in the sky.
    When a radioactive nucleus decays, some of its mass is converted into energy.

    matter is also created in high energy particle accelerators.

    it all comes down to Einstine's famous equation, E = mc²


    I should have stopped watching after this, but i carried on.



    Another thing the guys does is start an infinate regress.
    "what created the universe?", "what was the first cause"

    and then invoked God to terminate this infinate regress.

    however, this is a fallacy, it answeres absolutly nothing because you're still left with the question of what created or caused God.


    your so-called "explains everything" video shows absolutly nothing.
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    Your brain is god.

    Accept that the waters around you have grown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Widget View Post
    Eh, not really. More like everything else is biased. Logic backed by facts is unbiased and can be trusted so long as there are no fallacies (circular logic, etc.)
    ima have to agree with macrosoft, science is at best only a measurement of the universe. and with human hands and human tools there is 100% chance of error. now maby the error is only gonna be .0000000000efinity1 but still. and also the whole how do we know what were seeing is real theory. i mean maby this is all a dream drempt up by some big crazy turtle as hes flying through the sky ;]
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    ima have to agree with macrosoft, science is at best only a measurement of the universe. and with human hands and human tools there is 100% chance of error. now maby the error is only gonna be .0000000000efinity1 but still. and also the whole how do we know what were seeing is real theory. i mean maby this is all a dream drempt up by some big crazy turtle as hes flying through the sky ;]
    Haha, I love that one,bro!
    but c'mon,a Turtle?
    Science is just a way of seeing the universe from a technical perspective,rather than a religious one,and have mathematical equations translate into what we are and have around us. Seriously,scientists try to explain just about anything with a long-ass chalk-written equation on a black board!
    I like each and every one of us being the centers of our own universes,entitled to our own opinions
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Claw View Post
    in order to interact with the Universe, God must be made of matter and energy.
    Ok just to start off, Everything is fated. Not in the sence that God has some mystical power that draws everything in one direction but because the way your body was built predetermins how you think.. which predetermins what you do. So its not that you were destined to be a Macroer and never play Runescape legit, and every time you try to play legit Fate will throw something at you and tell you to macro.. its that the way you were made (which you have no controle over) destins you for a roll in this universe.

    ok so now that the domino effect is understood, if God made the universe, he made everything 'destined' in the way that he wanted it. i mean realy, couldnt God not only make something but to set it up nicely so that when those dominos fall they fall how he wants?

    this being said, you can see there is no actual need for god to 'interact' with our universe. ofcourse i said 'interact' because since we only exist in the 3D world our perspective dosnt alow us to experiance what its like to live outside of space/time and so to an entity who lives in 10D world, and is able to be in every moment, and because the blocks fall the way he wants them to as he is experianceing them, you could say maby he is interacting with us in a way.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Claw View Post
    “can God make a rock so heavy he can’t lift?”
    all i can say is my friends a hard core agnostic and dosnt belive in God, and agrees with me that this is a silly question :P lol
    the answer is oviously NO. every rock he makes he can lift, which makes him omnipotant.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Claw View Post
    You could argue that God is not bound by logic, however that would be unfair of God. He must be bound by that which he creates, less he be an unjust God? Breaking his own rules doesn’t seem very fitting.
    Sorry this sounds realy silly to me. the laws of the universe have nothing to do with morality.

    just – adjective 1. guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness: We hope to be just in our understanding of such difficult situations.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Claw View Post
    There are all kinds of arguments like ‘God is beyond our capacity to understand”... This is to know the mind of God. So the argument is flawed at it’s core, beginning the question “Did you talk to God to find this out?” The answer is a determinative, “no.”
    by definition anything that is God would be outside our relm of understanding. We understand him by what he did, and only through that we are able to know his mind. This one reason why i freaking hate christians that are against science. i just feel like slaping em around. If God realy did make this universe then the more of his creation we study the closer we are to understanding him.

    also IF God is real, and christianity is his religion, and the bible is truth, then it is the mind of God. and im pretty sure most christians do learn all that go to heavan when you die and the rest from the bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Claw View Post
    logic is the most powerful tool to prove that God cannot exist.
    good job (Y) i agree with you but i would go further and say logic is the only way to prove that god does or does not exist. I mean even if god came down from the sky and said HAI DER in a thick german accent, how do you know somone didnt just stuff a magic mushroom down your throat? Nope i shall never belive/disbelive in something as important as God if only scientific evidence backs it up.
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    who started the big bang who started the first little specks that created our universe: the sun Earth all the other planets? How could the Earth just of "happened" and is now the great thing it is today. The Earth is even able to heal it self from pollution and some man made problems.

    How could this have happened so perfectly without the help of a greater force?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chewgun View Post
    Haha, I love that one,bro!
    but c'mon,a Turtle?
    Science is just a way of seeing the universe from a technical perspective,rather than a religious one,and have mathematical equations translate into what we are and have around us. Seriously,scientists try to explain just about anything with a long-ass chalk-written equation on a black board!
    I like each and every one of us being the centers of our own universes,entitled to our own opinions
    haha yes everyone is entitled to there own opinion. you can respect everyones right to have an idea but you dont have to respect there idea. cause comeee on some people are stuipd as shit.

    and thanks x] i love dem flying turtles <3

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by fireninga88 View Post
    who started the big bang who started the first little specks that created our universe: the sun Earth all the other planets? How could the Earth just of "happened" and is now the great thing it is today. The Earth is even able to heal it self from pollution and some man made problems.

    How could this have happened so perfectly without the help of a greater force?
    energy came from another universe in which the laws of physics dont say that things can just pop out of no where. this is a theory ive always had, and even though no one listens to me cause it sounds so silly i think it beats alot of other theorys that materialists have thought up about the origines of the universe
    Last edited by Lance; 04-08-2009 at 09:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    ima have to agree with macrosoft, science is at best only a measurement of the universe. and with human hands and human tools there is 100% chance of error. now maby the error is only gonna be .0000000000efinity1 but still. and also the whole how do we know what were seeing is real theory. i mean maby this is all a dream drempt up by some big crazy turtle as hes flying through the sky ;]
    science is as wierd and wonderful as any fairy tale, but the difference is that science just works.

    your little ideas about flying turtles may be fun, but they dont solve any problems.


    science produces food and clean water for millions, it builds you a home to live in and a computer for when you're bored. If you become ill, you use science to cure yourself.

    your flying turtle does non of that.



    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    Ok just to start off, Everything is fated. Not in the sence that God has some mystical power that draws everything in one direction but because the way your body was built predetermins how you think.. which predetermins what you do. So its not that you were destined to be a Macroer and never play Runescape legit, and every time you try to play legit Fate will throw something at you and tell you to macro.. its that the way you were made (which you have no controle over) destins you for a roll in this universe.
    i strongly suspect you've got absolutly no evidence that "everything is fated".
    The burden of evidence lies on you for this.


    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    all i can say is my friends a hard core agnostic and dosnt belive in God, and agrees with me that this is a silly question :P lol
    the answer is oviously NO. every rock he makes he can lift, which makes him omnipotant.
    do you realise you've just walked straight into The Claw's hands?

    let Z be a rock so heavy that god cant lift it.

    since god cannot create Z, he is not omnipotent.



    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    energy came from another universe in which the laws of physics dont say that things can just pop out of no where. this is a theory ive always had, and even though no one listens to me cause it sounds so silly i think it beats alot of other theorys that materialists have thought up about the origines of the universe

    the reason no one listens to you is that your theory raises the question of where did that universe come from?

    you havent solved the problem of the first cause, you've just added something else to the back of the queue which still requires a first cause.
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    Ok first of all im pissed cause i had writen out some very long explanations/answers and then accedentaly pressed backspace at the wrong time and whent backwards in my history -.- but oh well ill re type it shorter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    science is as wierd and wonderful as any fairy tale, but the difference is that science just works.

    your little ideas about flying turtles may be fun, but they dont solve any problems.


    science produces food and clean water for millions, it builds you a home to live in and a computer for when you're bored. If you become ill, you use science to cure yourself.

    your flying turtle does non of that.
    ok the turtle was just an example. all i was saying is that your sences can lie to you, we dont know 100% if the universe we experiance is real. and because of that science cant realy be 100% truth and therefor logic is the way to go when you are trying to determin such important things like Gods existance. look up Bertrand Russell (i think its this guy.. might be wrong) if you want to look more into that phylosiphy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    i strongly suspect you've got absolutly no evidence that "everything is fated".
    The burden of evidence lies on you for this.
    blahhh this is the one i had such a good explanation for. heres the short version

    if i drop a ball, with physics equations i can calculate eveyr single state and rate that the ball passes through space/time. because of that i can predetermin exactly where the ball will fall before i even let go. In this way The universe was predetermined even before it was let go, the variables that made up the big bang / what ever may have started this universe shape what came out of it. and because of this everything is fated.

    the only reason i can see that you may not agree with me is that you think God screws around with things and changes our universe. but i thought you were an athiest...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    do you realise you've just walked straight into The Claw's hands?

    let Z be a rock so heavy that god cant lift it.

    since god cannot create Z, he is not omnipotent.
    let Z be a rock so heavy that god cant lift it.
    because god cannot create Z, he is omnipotent

    thats how i see it, because the fact that God cant stop being omnipotent dosnt make him any less omnipotent. its just word games that people play around with trying to use screwd up logic


    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    the reason no one listens to you is that your theory raises the question of where did that universe come from?

    you havent solved the problem of the first cause, you've just added something else to the back of the queue which still requires a first cause.
    haha you oviously didnt understand what i had said

    a universe that DOSNT follow the laws of physics that say energy cannot be created or distroyed would not need a first cause. Ofcourse it is speculation to say that alternate universes follow differant physical laws than ours does, though if there is an infinate number of alternate universes then i dont think it would be wrong to say taht an infinate number of them follow differant physical laws.
    Last edited by Lance; 04-09-2009 at 01:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    ok the turtle was just an example. all i was saying is that your sences can lie to you, we dont know 100% if the universe we experiance is real. and because of that science cant realy be 100% truth and therefor logic is the way to go when you are trying to determin such important things like Gods existance. look up Bertrand Russell (i think its this guy.. might be wrong) if you want to look more into that phylosiphy.
    Define "real". What we say we know describes the world and universe around us, so for our intents and purposes we say we know it. Big deal if we are a giant turtle's dream, the fact exists that the rules work for whats currently applicable to us so it makes no difference if its real on a grander scale.


    blahhh this is the one i had such a good explanation for. heres the short version

    if i drop a ball, with physics equations i can calculate eveyr single state and rate that the ball passes through space/time. because of that i can predetermin exactly where the ball will fall before i even let go. In this way The universe was predetermined even before it was let go, the variables that made up the big bang / what ever may have started this universe shape what came out of it. and because of this everything is fated.

    the only reason i can see that you may not agree with me is that you think God screws around with things and changes our universe. but i thought you were an athiest...

    As Yakman said a page back to a similar post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    this belief seems to be very similar to one which was popular, especially in france around the 18th century. Its called Determinism.

    it says similar to what you said, given accurate enough information, measurements and physical laws, everything in the universe is predictable, including human behaviour. Which implies there is no free will.

    however, with the discovery of the randomness of radioactive decay, quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, Schrödinger's cat and choas theory. It became clear that not everything can be predicted or determined like that.

    i guess you will believe in determinism if you want, but the evidence doesnt support it at all.
    (hey, that doesnt stop people believing in god)
    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    let Z be a rock so heavy that god cant lift it.
    because god cannot create Z, he is omnipotent

    thats how i see it, because the fact that God cant stop being omnipotent dosnt make him any less omnipotent. its just word games that people play around with trying to use screwd up logic
    The very fact that god cant make a rock he cant lift shows that he cant do everything, and thus is not omnipotent. I have no idea what you mean by "because the fact that God cant stop being omnipotent dosnt make him any less omnipotent", because the example used was showing that he isn't omnipotent.


    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    haha you oviously didnt understand what i had said

    a universe that DOSNT follow the laws of physics that say energy cannot be created or distroyed would not need a first cause. Ofcourse it is speculation to say that alternate universes follow differant physical laws than ours does, though if there is an infinate number of alternate universes then i dont think it would be wrong to say taht an infinate number of them follow differant physical laws.
    Yeah its possible and likely that an infinite amount of universes exist but its still just metaphysics. No evidence for it at all apart from the rules of probability, who knows there could be some limitation for an amount of stuff to be able to be made. For all we know theres nothing outside our own universe even. So it's just speculation at the moment.

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    Define "real". What we say we know describes the world and universe around us, so for our intents and purposes we say we know it. Big deal if we are a giant turtle's dream, the fact exists that the rules work for whats currently applicable to us so it makes no difference if its real on a grander scale.
    oh yeah i agree, i mean oviously science is very benificial to us but we were talking about seeking truth about God, thats why i brought that up, not because it realy makes a differance to our lives but it is something you should throw into the equasion when surching out the truth.

    hmm yeah about the randomness your right, i forgot about that X] thanks. but isnt the chaos theory very predictable aswell as radioactive decay..? Entropy is just the theory that everything likes to regress to a more chaoitc state, not a random state.. maby im wrong though.

    ok and what i was saying with the omnipotence, dosnt it sound very silly to say:
    that because an omnipitant entity cant stop being omnipitant that its not omnipitant.
    the fact that it cant stop being omnipitant MAKES it omnipitant. it is difficult to understand its cool if you dont. i think the problem is that the english language just wasnt made to talk about phylosiphy

    yeah i agree with you lol, i know we cant know but its just my little way of explaining the unexplainable the best i can. not saying its right but its just another theory, and i personaly think it makes much more sence than the big bang just happening out of no where. and you might say well no one belives that but beliveeee meee i know athiests who do :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0b0t1 View Post
    Ok, here we go.

    Bible teach - good. Bible tell story of creation - bad.
    agreed

    But i still think that people should act good on their own will, not on the fear of going to hell...

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    i agree macrosoft. the kind of morality that says im going to be good because i know ill get in trouble if i dont is so imature. its the kinda thing you would excpect from a child as hes contemplateing steeling a cookie. true morality is when your good for the sake of not wating to hurt others.

    And actualy about the bibles acount of creation:
    [taken from biblegaitway.com]
    And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind."
    "let the land produce living creature".. that sounds a hell of alot like.. EVOLUTION. *gasps*

    so yeah when ever christians say there is no room for evolution within the bible, well they must just be shmokeing something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macrosoft View Post
    agreed

    But i still think that people should act good on their own will, not on the fear of going to hell...
    Well, I think this message kind of contradicts itself.
    You see, I believe that most people are afraid of going to hell, yet it is their own free will to decide whether to go the hell or not, so wouldn't it not be an act of fear, but of free will to decide what is better for you?

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    well what i think macrosoft meant is act good because you want good for others, not because your being selfish and thinking how its going to hurt you if you dont act good.
    Lance. Da. Pants.

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    if you have a radioactive nucleus, its impossible to know whether it will decay this second, or decay in 10 years time, the process is random and unpredictable.

    radioactive decay can actually be used as a hardware random number generator.





    Quote Originally Posted by Starbridge View Post
    Well, I think this message kind of contradicts itself.
    You see, I believe that most people are afraid of going to hell, yet it is their own free will to decide whether to go the hell or not, so wouldn't it not be an act of fear, but of free will to decide what is better for you?
    dont you think that isnt actually free will then, only an illusion of free will.

    say i came up to you and held a gun to your head, saying i will shoot if you dont dance a jig or something.

    of course you have the free will to not obey and be shot, but no rational person will do this, you actually have no free will there.



    i use this a lot with political discussions, like capitalism says you can either work or you can die.

    no rational person will choose to die, so captalism gives you no choise but to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    i think the problem is that the english language just wasnt made to talk about phylosiphy
    Not so. The problem is that you are not clearly defining what 'omnipotent' means.

    Specifically, if the meaning of 'omnipotent' includes 'the ability to do anything', then that definition includes the creation of logically non-nonsensical situations, such as the existence of square circles, invisible pink unicorns and honest politicians (ok, I just threw that last one in for fun).

    Rationally you cannot have a square circle (without employing irrelevant syntactic trickery of the sort that would declare a toroid with a square cross section a 'square circle') because squareness and circleness are necessarily mutually exclusive.

    You might declare that the God you believe in can create situations in which such logical impossibilities are in fact possible, and you would absolutely be within the realm of real religion to do so, but you also exit the realm where rational discussion can be held.

    If in the idea of 'omnipotent' you include a constraint thusly: 'able to do anything that is not a logical impossibility', you exclude such nonsense as square circles but apparently leave open questions like 'can God create a bowl of Jello so big that even He cannot eat it all?' After all, there is nothing inherently illogical about a universe-sized bowl of Jello, is there?

    Beyond the flip answer that 'there is always room for Jello', you still find that such a question is excluded by your constraint on what is possible for an omnipotent being. The mere existence of a quantity of Jello in excess of what God Himself could consume constitutes an illogical situation, by virtue of God's omnipotence and this definition of omnipotence, no such quantity can exist. This is not a limit on the power of God, but on the meaning of omnipotence.

    In a larger context, the idea that any statement about the universe at large can be show to be true exclusively through logical means is absurdly foolhardy. To do so implies that the one doing the reasoning has absolutely excluded the possibility of there being information that would invalidate any of the foundations of his reasoning. This is clearly not the case now, and is likely to always remain so.

    Further, proof in God's existence would eliminate much of the need for faith which is itself considered by many to be a defining characteristic of many religions. Why this is so can be left open to debate, but it is very clear that religion most certainly does not suffer from the general inability of rational discourse to pin down the nature or even reality of God. Quite the opposite in fact, it celebrates the fact and uses it to great effect.

    My personal opinion on the matter is that anyone who claims the positive belief that gods do not or can not exist is making a worse mistake than those who claim faith that God does exist.

    Worse in what way? The faithful do not generally employ the artifice of reason or knowledge to found their claim. They know and generally acknowledge that proof is unavailable (it would not be faith if there was proof). An atheist making a positive claim that gods can be shown not to exist generally does not claim faith as the reason. He applies all manner of rational and logical argument, and then, in complete denial of the limitations of those tools, makes a leap of faith to an absolute claim of knowledge.

    In truth no one who understands the philosophy of science would claim that gods are absolutely not possible. They may present a very solid case with multiple lines of reasoning showing that evidence for the existence of gods is insufficient to justify rational belief, but this can in no way be construed, within the bounds of scientific principles of knowledge, as actual factual knowledge that gods cannot exist.

    No scientific reasoning can ever reach that level of absolute certainty because it is explicit within the philosophy of science that there exist facts we do not yet know that may effect what we think we know now. Until such time as we can show that we know without flaw absolutely every bit of information in existence, we cannot claim that gods do not exist.

    Thus, to claim under the authority of science that gods do not exist is to, in fact, simply expose one's own ignorance of what science can and cannot do.

    Congratulations if you made it this far and actually read all of that with a critical and open mind. Please graduate to talk.origins.
    Grippy has approximately 30,000 hours of Delphi coding experience. srsly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    if you have a radioactive nucleus, its impossible to know , considering our current and glaringly incomplete and sometimes self-contradictory body of knowledge about how the fine details of subatomic physics work, developed over a mere 100 years or so, whether it will decay this second, or decay in 10 years time, the process is , within the current bounds of our limited ability to measure and predict, random and unpredictable.
    There, fixed that for you.

    no rational person who is operating under artifical and unrealistic notions of existing capitalistic societies, rationality and definitions of 'work', which in fact vary greatly from person to person, will choose to die, so captalism gives you no choise but to work.
    And that too.

    And by the way, capitalistic systems are not exclusive of humanitarian support systems. Many organized religions exist within capitalistic systems and provide systems wherein people may do no work and not die. There are also many who subsist on the fringes of capitalistic society, collecting free handouts and doing no 'work' who also do not die. Many life-mates choose their counterpart based partially on whether he or she is able to provide in sufficient capacity that the former may live without working, perhaps to raise children, or perhaps to simply sit around the pool eating bon-bons.

    Clearly there are many and varied options within a capitalistic system for people to not work and also not die. Not only is it not impossible, it is extremely common.
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    well excuse me for not wanting to make it too complicated, i know sometimes these faithheads stop reading if that happens

    also i did mean ideal capitalism, not the regulated version we get today.



    also id like to add that most athiests dont assert god doesnt exist, you cant do that in the same way you cant assert the tooth fairy doesnt exist.
    you just live your life on the assumsion that they dont exist.

    i would say I'm an a-fairy-ist in the same way I'm an athiest.
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    I have to highly disagree with you.

    God does exist. Trust me. You will regret it later...

    Pray and see what happens Take a chance DD

    If you do i hope it isnt Uriel thats your Gaurdian rofl for reasons i cant explain.

    Just saying man from a 'Paranormal experience'. Hes there.

    I just hope i dont get banned but w.e Im right your wrong.

    End of story.

    <3

    http://www.jesus2020.com/?gclid=CJbT...FQubnAod1nx7Qg

    say the prayer at the bottom tonight then say he doesnt exist.

    you will crap yourself lol
    Last edited by ExilianorxXx; 04-10-2009 at 02:29 AM.

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