yes, it's another god thread

[Lance]

I hate these threads you post yakman, keep them to one of them.

People believe in what they want to believe/happen/be. So stop posting these :@

i love these posts. please keep them comeing :P

[XabdullahX]

you dont know he's given you all that stuff, theres no evidence for any of what you just said.

I'm gonna stick to evidence and logical thinking, as it has worked countless times before and never lets me down.


While you are left with your irrational beliefs typical of what a small child would believe.
In the same way a baby believes they are the center of the world, and that everything disappears when they close their eyes, you are living in a fantasy world and its about time you grew up.

Is it logical everything came by itself :O ?

[Yakman]

who's saying, "everything came by itself"

you're putting words into my mouth now, aka strawman fallecy.

[Bobarkinator]

Something I've kinda always wondered. How does something give something that it doesn't have? What I am referencing is, how does something non-living generate/evolve into something that is living?

[The Claw]

Something I've kinda always wondered. How does something give something that it doesn't have? What I am referencing is, how does something non-living generate/evolve into something that is living?

An extremely complex series of chemical reactions and a bit of luck in that the right chemicals were in the mix to be used.

Please dont reply that a god is the source of these chemicals or luck, if different chemicals were around, or conditions different we would of evolved differently into different life forms capable of surviving. The conditions we live in are so perfect for life, because everything in these conditions have been conditioned to live in them perfectly.

[Bobarkinator]

An extremely complex series of chemical reactions and a bit of luck in that the right chemicals were in the mix to be used.

Please dont reply that a god is the source of these chemicals or luck, if different chemicals were around, or conditions different we would of evolved differently into different life forms capable of surviving. The conditions we live in are so perfect for life, because everything in these conditions have been conditioned to live in them perfectly.

So you're saying we could just as easily not be here as we are here? That seems like a stupid thing to believe in how we came to be.

[Yakman]

the way I see it is,

humans do not know very much at all about abiogenesis (living matter arising from nonliving) and we should put our hands up and admit it, in the same way we admit we dont know much about a whole load of other stuff.

however, many of us have hope that humans will eventually find the answers to these problems.
we rationality behind this hope is that we have discovered the solutions to countless problems before, and there is no reason to think that this problem is very different to all the others.


I suppose you could draw an analogy between waiting for the second coming of jesus and waiting for the solution to any problem to be discovered.
The only difference would be that you can actually become a scientist if you want, and join the others who are working on problems, to help them solve it faster perhaps.

[Bobarkinator]

So you put your faith in humankind that they will find a solution. I put my faith in Jesus Christ because for me, that is the solution. The way I see it, it's almost a principle of parsimony kind of thing. I see two options. Wait out on humankind to get a solution, or go with the easier option, that is their already is solution with God.

[ShowerThoughts]

So you put your faith in humankind that they will find a solution. I put my faith in Jesus Christ because for me, that is the solution. The way I see it, it's almost a principle of parsimony kind of thing. I see two options. Wait out on humankind to get a solution, or go with the easier option, that is their already is solution with God.

And it's the only good solution there is.

[Torrent of Flame]

So you put your faith in humankind that they will find a solution. I put my faith in Jesus Christ because for me, that is the solution. The way I see it, it's almost a principle of parsimony kind of thing. I see two options. Wait out on humankind to get a solution, or go with the easier option, that is their already is solution with God.

So your a typical religious believer? You simply have to have an answer? You cannot just be in a state of not-knowing of how we came to be?

[Bobarkinator]

So your a typical religious believer? You simply have to have an answer? You cannot just be in a state of not-knowing of how we came to be?

I don't see why I would want to be in that state. If you want to call me a typical religious believer for seeking the right answer then go ahead.

[bullzeye95]

I don't see why I would want to be in that state. If you want to call me a typical religious believer for seeking the right answer then go ahead.

You're not seeking the right answer, you're seeking an answer that you would like to be true, but is only backed up by a book written almost 2 thousand years ago.

[Yakman]

So you put your faith in humankind that they will find a solution. I put my faith in Jesus Christ because for me, that is the solution. The way I see it, it's almost a principle of parsimony kind of thing. I see two options. Wait out on humankind to get a solution, or go with the easier option, that is their already is solution with God.

i would like to make it perfectly clear that you dont need to put your faith in the scientific method in general life, faith is only needed for answering deep questions about our origins.


also you may want to consider that there is a difference between something that is easy and something that is right.

[Bobarkinator]

You're not seeking the right answer, you're seeking an answer that you would like to be true, but is only backed up by a book written almost 2 thousand years ago.

Only in the same sense that you would like your answer to be true.

i would like to make it perfectly clear that you dont need to put your faith in the scientific method in general life, faith is only needed for answering deep questions about our origins.


also you may want to consider that there is a difference between something that is easy and something that is right.

I think you do need to put faith in the scientific method. I wouldn't believe that it works if I didn't have faith.

Yes their is a difference between something easy and something right. I just really don't see why people make things complicated.

[The Claw]

Only in the same sense that you would like your answer to be true.



I think you do need to put faith in the scientific method. I wouldn't believe that it works if I didn't have faith.

Yes their is a difference between something easy and something right. I just really don't see why people make things complicated.

Because theres no point in believing in something because its easy, or because it makes you feel good to think it's true

[Waddo]

There is suffering because Eve ate the forbidden apple.

Erm wasn't it Adam hence Adam's apple.

[lolers]

1 + 1 = 2, so maths = correct, science works in conjunction with maths, which is correct, which means science is correct.

And like I said earlier, why are there so many non-believers if God is all-powerful? God cannot be perfect, for if he was perfect everyone would believe in him.


EDIT: Pure, how do you mean contradictions? I assume you mean that of the bible, and the bible states God exists, but you cannot base God existing on the bible.

Because people are not thought about God and they don't believe that they will help them in anyway. But if you say the phrase " Oh my God" when some happened or "Oh god yes! Yes please more" when your having sex, you belive in god.

[rogue poser]

torrent of flame,
your 1+1 argument doesnt make any sense. I dont think its even necessary to explain the extremely flawed rationale behind the absurd conclusion you have come to with that border line retarded statement...

There is absolutely no point in arguing over this because none of you asshats even have the vaguest resemblance of a coherent argument. The fact of the matter is, we are here and none of you can prove from which method or means we have arisen.

I cannot rest my laurels in science because the same group of people that are telling you CO2 emissions is causing drastic climate change (it has nothing to do with the number of sunspots like the mini ice age in the 17th century because of almost no magnetic activity on the surface of the sun) are telling you that we arose from random chance and a primordial soup of amino acids.

Not only does that not make any sense but its completely asinine. To make a judgment like that and for it to have any semblance of a rational conclusion, you must have solid evidence stating that well, it can happen. That evidence could be perhaps it happening again, by intelligent means. Scientists cannot recreate this "phenomena" what makes you think blind luck could do it? Even if they could recreate the phenomena, it only proves that intelligence was needed

We cant even explore the bottom of our own oceans, what makes you think we can make an accurate conclusion about something that happened "millions" of years ago?

[Yakman]

There is absolutely no point in arguing over this because none of you asshats even have the vaguest resemblance of a coherent argument. The fact of the matter is, we are here and none of you can prove from which method or means we have arisen.

I cannot rest my laurels in science because the same group of people that are telling you CO2 emissions is causing drastic climate change (it has nothing to do with the number of sunspots like the mini ice age in the 17th century because of almost no magnetic activity on the surface of the sun) are telling you that we arose from random chance and a primordial soup of amino acids.

Not only does that not make any sense but its completely asinine. To make a judgment like that and for it to have any semblance of a rational conclusion, you must have solid evidence stating that well, it can happen. That evidence could be perhaps it happening again, by intelligent means. Scientists cannot recreate this "phenomena" what makes you think blind luck could do it? Even if they could recreate the phenomena, it only proves that intelligence was needed

We cant even explore the bottom of our own oceans, what makes you think we can make an accurate conclusion about something that happened "millions" of years ago?

There are massive amounts of evidence that all life as we know it came to its current form through a process of evolution by natural selection.
If you dont believe me I can copy/paste some evidence I posted before.


there is also pretty strong evidence that carbon dioxide causes a greenhouse effect which causes climate change, but thats a subject for another thread.


Isnt it ironic that you dont trust science, yet science made that computer you are using to post this from. Science made everything you use in your normal life including things you dont even know about. Without science you be lucky to live to 20 years of age.

I bet that whenever you are ill, you go to a doctor who tries to cure you. Well he or she got their knowledge and understanding from science.

[rogue poser]

There are massive amounts of evidence that all life as we know it came to its current form through a process of evolution by natural selection.
If you dont believe me I can copy/paste some evidence I posted before.


there is also pretty strong evidence that carbon dioxide causes a greenhouse effect which causes climate change, but thats a subject for another thread.


Isnt it ironic that you dont trust science, yet science made that computer you are using to post this from. Science made everything you use in your normal life including things you dont even know about. Without science you be lucky to live to 20 years of age.

I bet that whenever you are ill, you go to a doctor who tries to cure you. Well he or she got their knowledge and understanding from science.

There is no irrefutable empirical evidence that evolution is true. period.

for one second lets look at the most basic life. single celled organisms. The bacterial flagellum is more efficient than the most complex combustion engine. It can rotate at 100,000 RPMs and stop and spin the opposite direction at the same speed, in an instant. It is powered by chemical flow within a single celled organism, 0 emissions....

But that is just random chance. silly me, the most efficient engine on the planet spontaneously came into existence... Just as well the most complex computer (your brain) is a product of random chance, damn seems so logical! now i understand where your coming from...

[Yakman]

There is no irrefutable empirical evidence that evolution is true. period.

for one second lets look at the most basic life. single celled organisms. The bacterial flagellum is more efficient than the most complex combustion engine. It can rotate at 100,000 RPMs and stop and spin the opposite direction at the same speed, in an instant. It is powered by chemical flow within a single celled organism, 0 emissions....

But that is just random chance. silly me, the most efficient engine on the planet spontaneously came into existence... Just as well the most complex computer (your brain) is a product of random chance, damn seems so logical! now i understand where your coming from...

this is a strawman fallecy.

In fact, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for evolution that as been peer-reviewed and found to be firm.


Evolution does not work by pure chance, natural selection is quintessentially non-random process.
you might as well say Adam Smith's invisible hand is a random process.

Evolution can explain the complexity and apparent design of all life, including that bacterial flagellum.

[rogue poser]

this is a strawman fallecy.

In fact, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for evolution that as been peer-reviewed and found to be firm.


Evolution does not work by pure chance, natural selection is quintessentially non-random process.
you might as well say Adam Smith's invisible hand is a random process.

Evolution can explain the complexity and apparent design of all life, including that bacterial flagellum.

Im done arguing with you because you not only refuse to present any argument against anything i say, but in the interim somehow assume that telling me what i said is incorrect is some way to advance your position in the argument (that is based on the presupposition that your correct might i add)

Your self righteous attitude and empty words are no way to effectively enter into an argument and be the victor, you only force people away because of your repetitive, blatantly ignorant posts

[Yakman]

if you're using a logical fallecy, it would be stupid of me to take the bait.

it seems to me you are running away as soon as someone comes along who doesnt get pulled in by the obvious strawman.


As for empty words, I can present evidence evidence for evolution, but i suspect you wont like that.
ask for evidence and you will get it.



you're the one making assertive statements without any evidence.

There is no irrefutable empirical evidence that evolution is true. period.

[Lance]

Yakman. Please present evidence

[Yakman]

ok i will, lets start with that creature which has feathers, and also has teeth,
its a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds,
modern day birds dont have teeth, they have beaks.

it has the name Archaeopteryx
about 10 complete body fossils of it have been discovered, and large numbers of parts of its body,

(you might be wondering, "how do they know that this tooth belonged to that bird", well the answer is that the scientists that study this know to look very carefully at all the detail, more often then not, a biologists can tell the species just by looking at a tooth, other things are easier, like feathers are very likely to have a pattern in species)

a picture of one is here

note: although you cant see it in the picture, that bird defiantly has teeth.
paleontologists don't look at pictures like we just did, they look at fossils with magnifying glasses, and they defiantly saw teeth

you cant possibly say all 30 or so fossils found are fake, not when they were found by many different people in many different places.
these clearly show a transition between flying dinosaurs and birds.

an artists impression is here
thats only an artists impression, fossils have no way of telling us what colour its wings were or anything, but we can make educated guesses.






now fossils are rare things, less then 1% of dead animals are preserved like this, we are lucky to have as many fossils as we do,
we dont have many complete fossil records of one specie turning into another, like we have archaeopteryx, but we dont have a fossil of the stage after, as far as i know

one complete fossil record we have is the horse, which is my second piece of evidence for today,
we have a complete record showing how to horse went from a small dog-like creature with 5 toes in each leg, to the modern day horse we see today,

a graphical illustration of these finding is found here

if you want to check all this fossils individually, i can offer you their separate wikipedia pages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyracotherium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesohippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parahippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merychippus

sorry for the link spamming, i dont have much to say about these fossils except they are one of the complete fossil records we have,
if you're ever in London, you can have a look at them for yourself in London's Natural History Museum


and to my atheist fellows, a good page to read up on transitional fossils is here



^^^
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