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Thread: Public education system

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    Default Public education system

    In my opinion, the public education in the United States really sucks. I only went for my freshman year of high school (was homeschooled up until then, now am going to community college instead), but it was the biggest amount of time I have ever completely wasted in my life.

    Here's how a normal day would go (We had A day B day schedule. Four classes a day, but twice as long):
    -Ride the bus for a half hour to school

    -Go to English first hour. The teacher would give us one or two worksheets to begin the class. The work sheets total time took about 20 minutes. We handed the worksheets in, the teacher would do a quick completion grade, and then we would sit there for 1 whole hour while the teacher just sits on his computer playing solitaire. Unless there was a test, then he would give us the test (It's really a 20 question quiz), we finish it in less than a half hour, we sit there while he grades them, and then just sit there doing nothing after.

    -Go to Spanish second hour. The teacher gave us all "spanish" names, and every day we had to get in a circle and say everyone else's spanish name. I don't see what was to be gained from that at all... The teacher would hand us a vocab sheet, we would study it for 5 minutes, then play "games". There was battle ship where you had to say the numbers and letters in spanish, and you would have to say "you sunk my ship" in spanish. There were other stupid games like "sparkle" where we all got in a circle and a word would be said, and it would go around the circle with everyone spelling the next letter of it.

    -Lunch for a half hour.

    -Go to Biology third hour. I am not going to complain about biology because I actually had a good teacher who taught us something.

    -Fourth hour go to concert band. I signed up for percussion, which includes the xylophone, snare drum, bass drum, tamberine, vibes, and triangle. The only problem was, each song only used about 3 of the 6 instruments we had in percussion, and we had 12 people in percussion. So I pretty much laid there sleeping on the floor for over an hour until it was my turn to play for 10 or 15 minutes.

    -30 minutes of AE (time to do your homework). The only problem was that I already had about 6 hours that day of sitting around to do it already, so it's just nap time again.



    So that was my A day. Overall a productive day



    B day:
    -Ride the bus for half a hour.

    -Go to gym for first hour. Gym class was ok.

    -Go to keyboarding for second hour. We are given three 2 minute timings that we have to have done by the end of two weeks, getting at least 40 words per minute for an A. My first try on all 3 timings, I got a 112 WPM, 108 WPM, and a 118 WPM. We also had to do 3 typing exercises every day which took in total 10 to 15 minutes tops. So I was always left over with at least an hour (usually more) per typing class period to do absolutely nothing.

    -Go to orientation to technology (drafting). This was an ok class, except for about a class period every week where the people who were ahead (actually doing the work) had to sit there a whole class period helping and just waiting for the other people in the class to catch up.

    -Go to math class where our teacher has absolutely no control over the class. Everyone's got their phones out, playing songs on their phones out loud, and just being obnoxious. The teacher spent over half the class period just trying to get control over her class, but our class knows that she wouln't really punish anyone for being stupid. She once threatened to get the detention book out and start writing names and everyone just laughed out loud because they knew she wouldn't do it.





    To me, this does not sound like a very "efficient" learning environment. All the politicians say that we need to throw more money at our schools so our kids learn more, but it never helps. The problem is the teachers. Everyone says that teachers are so underpaid (which 45k for 9 months of work with spring break, winter break, all holidays...etc. off isn't bad), but I don't believe that. I think that good teachers are underpaid.

    The first of 10 principles of economics states that people respond to incentives. If there is no incentive to do a good job, then most wouldn't. This is the problem with government run jobs and unions. The teachers have a contract guaranteeing them a job no matter how bad they are at teaching. They also have a set pay, so it doesn't matter if they are the best teachers in the world or the worst, they still make as much as the guy next to them. This is why communism fails: no incentive to do a good job. We actually have a teacher at our school that was so bad, they took her out of her classroom teaching and now she pretty much does nothing, but gets paid because she's "under contract". It's ridiculous.

    Since government will never make the pay scale unequal for taechers, I think that either:

    A) The government run education system should be completely removed. This would save people many thousands of dollars a year that could be used to send their kids to private school. Not only that, but then when your kids aren't in school anymore, you would still save money because right now you pay for other people's children to go to school for the rest of your life, even if you don't have any kids.

    Good private schools don't have that all teachers get paid equal even if you suck crap, and they don't have to be guarenteed the job for 20 years. This will force teachers to actually try to teach kids something so they don't lose their job, or so they get higher pay. When there's an incentive to do better, people will do better.



    B) Give people who are sending their kids to private schools/homeschooling their tax money back that's going towards the public education system. If I'm not being sent there, why should my parents have to pay for it? If a kid is sent to private school right now, it's obviously a huge amount of money because it's like you are paying for your kid to go to 2 different schools when they are only using 1.




    Anyways, I just wanted to hear some other people's thoughts on this. There's no reason for our education system not to be #1 in the world (which it isn't even close now). Government is the most inefficient run business in the U.S., whether it be run by democrat OR republican. I don't think that the most inefficient business of this country should be running the education system, but that's just my opinion.

    Edit: Wow, I just realized how long this post was... Sorry

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    well its better than chinas educational sysytem in my terms (i hav e a really short attention span and get bored really easily and if im bored with something i just wont do it)

    they go to school for like 18 hours

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    My schooling was great. They offered lots of upper level classes, including many AP. Every class that I took engaged my mind, and really prepared me for college. I'm so glad I took an upper level math, and an upper level chemistry in high school. AP Bio was a blast, but didn't help me much in college except the 3 credits I got. English was fun, I became a much better writer because of that class.
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    you may see it like this, however

    1. Bad teachers are fired, you might not belive this, but they are.

    2. I dont know about age/ class's in america, but over here we have a certain year which isent important tbh, and teachers are too busy with the gcse students and college ones.

    3. teachers go into teaching, not for the money, but to help. there is not one teacher i know which could not be doing a higher payed job, as the absoulte vast majority are infact smart, but arnt looking for cash, but to help people.

    4. if this fails, it may just be your suck ars school.
    Did someone say GDK?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeyboy29 View Post
    you may see it like this, however

    1. Bad teachers are fired, you might not belive this, but they are.
    Not here, I had to take an AP Computer Science class from a teacher that read verbatim off of his clipboard and the powerpoints he downloaded from the internet. He also teaches Algebra I, and is the reason ~100 kids won't go on to geometry each year.


    Quote Originally Posted by jakeyboy29 View Post
    3. teachers go into teaching, not for the money, but to help. there is not one teacher i know which could not be doing a higher payed job, as the absoulte vast majority are infact smart, but arnt looking for cash, but to help people.
    I wish that was true here =\

    The only significantly good teacher was originally a substitute for my Trig/Analyt class when the teacher's wife had cancer, but because all the kids liked him he stayed for an extra year to teach normally. He got stuck teaching 1 AP Calculus class and 4 Geometry classes though, and only the calc class had over half the kids pass.

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    If you guys think that high school teachers suck... wait till you hit some of the college professors. Many are great, some are idiots. You'll be begging for the teacher to read verbatim off his clip board...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeyboy29 View Post
    you may see it like this, however

    1. Bad teachers are fired, you might not belive this, but they are.
    Well, because of the teachers unions they have to be REALLY bad. it took years for the worst teacher i ever had to get fired. heres how it went in coach scotts american government honors class...

    We start the day by doing nothing, if someone brought in a movie we could watch it. Ever watched super troopers in high school? Well i have! That was about everyday. The only days we ever did anything were days when he was being audited. Our test were probably the best thing about that class. He had a word doc with all the questions and answers and he would put it on the projector so it looked like we were doing something. He would flip the mouse wheel round and round and everyone would whip out their cell phones and digital cameras and take pictures. We would then all collaborate and get all the questions and answers. Then on test day, there wasnt even a no talking policy, so it didnt matter. He wasnt fired until 2 years after i graduated, and he had been there for i thinkg 6 or 7 years prior...

    the public school system is a joke, instead of wasting the 10k they spend to send your student to their crap school, if there was a stipend per student then you could move your kids to private institutions that would do a much better job as far as education goes. Make the education system a capitalist business, the bad schools will lose students then fail, while good schools will prosper.

    I was so far ahead when i made the transition from private to public school. i was in algebra II freshman year... and thats not saying much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeyboy29 View Post
    1. Bad teachers are fired, you might not belive this, but they are.
    I don't know about where you are, but in the US, it doesn't work like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jakeyboy29 View Post
    3. teachers go into teaching, not for the money, but to help. there is not one teacher i know which could not be doing a higher payed job, as the absoulte vast majority are infact smart, but arnt looking for cash, but to help people.
    No, that's not always the case. I had a teacher this year (computer applications class) who would just sit at his computer all day and read gossip and CNN. When the exams came, almost everybody scored below a 50%. I scored the highest (by far) with a 78%. So what'd he do? He curves all the grades to above passing.

    He didn't get his job because he wanted to teach, he got it because the government had a "soldiers to teachers" program that would give free schooling to former soldiers for free. He figured it'd be an easy job and that he wouldn't have to do anything. He was right, and he's been "teaching" for 10 years.


    The schools all need to be privatized if they are to be run efficiently.

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    Wow, your school sounds rather suckish. This year, English ill admit was somewhat similar. Spanish we actually did a lot, though im in spanish 4 so, it was a lot more than freshman year. Bio, same as you, and math we got a lot done. Overall, it was a lot less of a waste of my time than yours if that makes you feel any better.

    EDIT: even in my CAD class, where the teacher was learning CAD as he was teaching us wasnt a waste. I got a lot done despite having to take tests every once in a while that only me and a few others seemed to pass. (Even though we greaded out own tests and could change the answers all we wanted.)
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    100% like my high school schedule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bullzeye95 View Post
    When the exams came, almost everybody scored below a 50%. I scored the highest (by far) with a 78%. So what'd he do? He curves all the grades to above passing.
    Might be surprising, but this the norm in college. Well, the curve part isn't the norm, but most people sucking hard on tests is the norm. If you're very LUCKY, you'll get a curve like this. But almost all teachers will do some kind of curve of shift.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brain View Post
    Might be surprising, but this the norm in college. Well, the curve part isn't the norm, but most people sucking hard on tests is the norm. If you're very LUCKY, you'll get a curve like this. But almost all teachers will do some kind of curve of shift.
    But the reason for the scores isn't the same. The guy never taught anything that he was supposed to. The reason the scores weren't lower is because the class itself isn't too hard, and the questions were relatively easy to figure out. In college, I assume that the questions are pretty challenging.

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    sorry bullz, same way in many college classes, the teacher rants about his life, while the test is over the book. So better get used to the idea of actually reading college texts books.
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    My school is supposed to be amazing!!!
    but it really isnt
    We pay about £4000 a term
    Some teachers are good
    My maths teacher has really helped me this year.
    I love sports and so I have aced it all years.
    But teachers at my school take grudges on pupils and so it ruins the pupils courage (dont know if that the right word)
    This year i got 18% on my History end of year exam.
    I'm not doing it next year, but still.
    My history teacher is a fat lump that puts on DVD's every lesson and doesnt teach us anything.
    Its not that I care about History but what do I tell my mum!?
    I don't think teachers are getting paid enough, especially the good ones, they have the futures generation in their hands and so the government should pay them more IMO.

    T~M

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    My school is supposed to be amazing!!!
    but it really isnt
    We pay about £4000 a term
    Some teachers are good
    My maths teacher has really helped me this year.
    I love sports and so I have aced it all years.
    But teachers at my school take grudges on pupils and so it ruins the pupils courage (dont know if that the right word)
    This year i got 18% on my History end of year exam.
    I'm not doing it next year, but still.
    My history teacher is a fat lump that puts on DVD's every lesson and doesnt teach us anything.
    Its not that I care about History but what do I tell my mum!?
    I don't think teachers are getting paid enough, especially the good ones, they have the futures generation in their hands and so the government should pay them more IMO.

    T~M
    I'm confused.. you just said that your teacher didn't teach you anything, but then you said that he should be paid more?

    @Brain, at least you have text books.. all I had was bunny invasion 2 :'<

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    I had to buy the text books....at least $100, $175 average, $250 for physics and math....

    EDIT: and I think he means if they are paid more they'll care more and do better teaching?
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    Surprise, public education is bullshit. That is what happens when you have horrible teachers, unfocused material and to many people per classroom. When I have children I plan on home schooling them and sending them to public school, so they can have a better education and have the social interaction.

    Here is how my usual day in Grade 10 went.

    Arrive at school and my first class is English. Our teacher liked giving us a bunch load of projects for some god damn reason I can not be sure, but like every other project you are given to much time for what it really is.

    Gym? Meh, you do a game for an hour can not really complain.

    Life Skills? I honestly do not even know what the hell happened in this class. I left that class with nothing as far as life skills go. Oh well that is a lie, I found out how to budget

    Then we would have the option slot, can not complain here either because it was art and there was always something creative to do.

    Then we had english again.

    And that was my second semester. My first semester involved Science, Math, computer science and geography. Science was bullshit our teacher sucked took us a hour to go over around 15 bullet points of information. She could not figure out why most of us talked, I sincerely believe the best time in the class was when we got a substitute and we really only did take 10 minutes of class to go through the information that was usually going to take a hour. Math I can not complain because our teacher was awesome and every day we were given new stuff with the second class of the day for practicing what we learned earlier. Geography was a waste of a time, it was your almost usual geography except for the fact we didn't have to colour a single map. And computer science was some bs aswell in that all we did was follow printed out tutorials, that was the slackest class I have ever, ever been in.

    Hopefully next year will be better because stuff becomes more focused. I picked Biology, Chemistry and Physics. At least those are subjects I enjoy. I just hope I do not get some teacher that should be off the payroll.

    Funny story really, my science teacher retired right after teaching us. We were the last people to ever be taught by her.
    Last edited by Capricorn; 07-01-2009 at 03:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brain View Post
    I had to buy the text books....at least $100, $175 average, $250 for physics and math....

    EDIT: and I think he means if they are paid more they'll care more and do better teaching?
    Yeh that what I mean basically.
    Maybe if they aren't doing there job and getting good grades in their classes then they get fired or put on warning.

    T~M

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    news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8127085.stm
    what a coincidinkle

    T~M

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeyboy29 View Post
    you may see it like this, however

    1. Bad teachers are fired, you might not belive this, but they are.

    2. I dont know about age/ class's in america, but over here we have a certain year which isent important tbh, and teachers are too busy with the gcse students and college ones.

    3. teachers go into teaching, not for the money, but to help. there is not one teacher i know which could not be doing a higher payed job, as the absoulte vast majority are infact smart, but arnt looking for cash, but to help people.

    4. if this fails, it may just be your suck ars school.
    As said already, bad teachers are very hard to fire because of the teachers unions. And I go to a very nice school with tons of money and crap we don't need. All we need is better teachers.

    And you said that teachers were smart. I just wanted to share a few posts from Tarajunky in another thread:
    Yeah, it's a mess. My friend was talking to a lady that worked as a high school science teacher. She was the only teacher in the high school that had passed the competency exams. All the other teachers took the exams 4 times and failed 4 times. Do you think they lost their jobs? Of course not. They were kept on as "permanent substitute teachers". They kept the same salary, and taught the same subjects. The only downside was that they lose their health insurance plan. For any teacher that can get health insurance through their spouse's work, there's no downside at all. If we implemented universal health insurance in the US, there would never be any downside.

    I looked at the pay scales last month. A college graduate earns $40,000, someone with a Master degree earns $42,000, and someone with a PhD earns $44,000. So, the difference between someone with a generic teaching degree with no competency in teaching science earns $4,000 less than someone with a doctorate in the field they're teaching.

    Yeah, that makes sense...
    To get back to the socialized education system, here's another glaring failure...

    http://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-te...tory?track=rss

    "L.A. schools pay teachers millions not to teach..."

    "The housed are accused, among other things, of sexual contact with students, harassment, theft or drug possession. Nearly all are being paid. All told, they collect about $10 million in salaries per year -- even as the district is contemplating widespread layoffs of teachers because of a financial shortfall."

    ...

    "In New York City public schools, which make up the country's largest district, teachers are confined to "rubber rooms." About 550 of the district's 80,000 teachers spend school hours "literally just doing crossword puzzles, waiting for the end of the day" until their cases are resolved, spokeswoman Ann Forte said. Some have been there for years."


    "It's a glaring example of how hard it is to remove someone from the classroom and how the process is tilted toward teachers," said school board member Marlene Canter, who recently proposed -- unsuccessfully -- to revamp the disciplinary process."

    Unions + government = epic socialist fail.
    I saw this headline today and it reminded me of this thread.

    http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_n...n_math20090519

    "Aspiring school teachers fail in math
    Only 27 percent of the teaching candidates pass"

    Ugh.
    So there are a few teachers who aren't extremely smart.


    Quote Originally Posted by bullzeye95 View Post
    I don't know about where you are, but in the US, it doesn't work like that.

    No, that's not always the case. I had a teacher this year (computer applications class) who would just sit at his computer all day and read gossip and CNN. When the exams came, almost everybody scored below a 50%. I scored the highest (by far) with a 78%. So what'd he do? He curves all the grades to above passing.

    He didn't get his job because he wanted to teach, he got it because the government had a "soldiers to teachers" program that would give free schooling to former soldiers for free. He figured it'd be an easy job and that he wouldn't have to do anything. He was right, and he's been "teaching" for 10 years.


    The schools all need to be privatized if they are to be run efficiently.
    Same with my English teacher who did nothing all day. On the final exam, me and one other person got a B, and everyone else was a D or failed. He curved the test so much I ended up getting over 110% on the final exam. He didn't tell us what to study or review with us at all (although I went home to study), he just pretty much said good luck and the last few days of that class we sat there doing NOTHING. He just sat on his computer.

    And +1 to schools being privatized to be run efficiently. Businesses will make sure you get a good education because you are paying for it. Government doesn't care either way because they get your money either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brain View Post
    I had to buy the text books....at least $100, $175 average, $250 for physics and math....

    EDIT: and I think he means if they are paid more they'll care more and do better teaching?
    @some of your comments above brain, I also go to college (community college) and I can tell you that it is much better than high school; at least from the teachers I've had. If you follow along with the chapters in the text book and pay attention to the lectures (I had rarely seen lectures in high school, so I was excited), you will learn a lot.

    At what The Man said about paying teachers more so they care more, this will not work under current conditions. You are referring to the "efficiency wage theory". Ford is a good example of a company that did this a while back. They had something called the "$5 day", when the equilibrium wage was only about $2.50 a day. They told their workers though that they were going to need to work very hard or they would be fired, and they increased productivity by a much higher amount then what it cost them. This worked because if they didn't do a good job, they would lose their job.

    In the public education system, we could give the teachers $200k a year, and few teachers would actually work much harder. Why would they work harder? They make the same amount of money either way, and they keep their job either way. So where's the incentive to work harder?
    Last edited by JAD; 07-01-2009 at 07:05 AM.

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    I dont actualy know alot about this, but i think canada has a ministry of education that makes "laws" for all the canadian schools of what has to happen and what has to be taught. There are still bad teachers and teachers who dont teach anything but this way, theres somone you can go to and get a teacher fired if they arnt doing there job.

    Does USA have something like that to?
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    What is this public education you speak of? I only know of this public babysitting thing... Supposedly, doing it keeps you off drugs. What good is that?
    The jealous temper of mankind, ever more disposed to censure than
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancerawks View Post
    I dont actualy know alot about this, but i think canada has a ministry of education that makes "laws" for all the canadian schools of what has to happen and what has to be taught. There are still bad teachers and teachers who dont teach anything but this way, theres somone you can go to and get a teacher fired if they arnt doing there job.

    Does USA have something like that to?
    yea they do, but when the teachers get audited, all they have to do is teach for a week, and then when the auditing is over they can just do what they want again. Eventually they will get fired, but the teachers unions make that very hard

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    Quote Originally Posted by R0b0t1 View Post
    What is this public education you speak of? I only know of this public babysitting thing... Supposedly, doing it keeps you off drugs. What good is that?
    That's pretty much all the education system is today. A free government run baby sitting service. Why is full time at college only 12 hours in class a week, and we learn 20 times more?

    For a few of my math classes in the winter, we did "arts and crafts". We cut out snow flakes for 90 minutes to learn about symmetry. I thought I was in the wrong school (kindergarten or preschool).

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    I have noticed this problem with a lot of larger schools. I mean I came from a school in a town with 2000 people in it. It was a massive brand new school built in 1998 (the high school anyways, middle school in 1974?, and elementary in the 40s)

    When I was in High School we had pretty much all really good teachers. I mean there were 1 or 2 bum teachers (my sophomore biology = verbatim power points and sitting around talking) but otherwise almost every single one of my other teachers was incredibly smart on his/her subjects.

    My sophomore Geometry teacher was a genius, you asked him anything serious and he knew the answer to it. He could quote any movie you asked (besides the newer movies) and he was a mathematical genius.

    Our history classes were the same way, awesome teachers that knew what they were doing and did it well. My only history class complaint was that my Junior History class teacher was incredibly biased and only knew his side of things.

    Science was by far the worst department. We would do useless things in those classes and most of it the teachers couldn't even remember what they were doing, although we were kept busy, it was just a bunch of really repetitive stuff over and over again.

    Personally, I hate english classes usually, I can't stand "old english" or written documentaries on old world topics. My freshman and junior class teacher (same teacher for both) was an incredible older lady that knew anything you wanted to know, and you could laugh with her on anything. Not saying the class was always the most productive, but we got what we needed done.

    Our music teacher in high school was incredible. He was a young guy (26 or 27) and he was a musical genius. He could play anything by ear, play any instrument, fix anything, and was incredibly awesome at the same time. Personally, I think he wasn't the greatest teacher of sorts. He was a musical genius, but I don't think he knew quite how to pass the ball on to his students fully yet. (He only started teaching my freshman year)

    My school was quite well funded, the teachers were actually quite underpaid, but they loved there job. People say that our school was a more strict school and that we did more than others. We did offer more than most schools, although our technology dept was lacking entirely. I think I just lucked out with a very good school with the small town school aspect behind it.
    Last edited by Mr.Klean; 07-02-2009 at 04:29 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rubix View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cardin View Post
    you ought to listen to Mr. Klean...he's magical!
    this.

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