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Thread: Scar is NOT the problem!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post
    Bullshit. Reflection isn't hard to update, it's just that the people who can show no interest in doing so. And don't come telling me we can't. There are plenty of people who have done it in the past, and it hasn't become any harder.
    (No, I won't do it. Perhaps when Simba works with SRL 4, and work on SRL 5 is started.)
    Well Naike said he & RM couldn't do it, so I assumed it was harder than it looks. If it's so easy, why can only a few people do it, and those who try to learn seem to have many troubles?

    Perhaps try writing less biased summaries.

    The SRL include isn't "fixed" by adding reflection, the include is fixed by putting some love in it. Something I am guilty of not doing myself, for over 18 months.

    If you want to add Reflection to the core of SRL, go ahead and fork SRL. I don't care. It won't be added. For all the reasons I have stated in the past. I'm not going to post them for the 9001th time.
    No, I am not short-sighted, but I am growing very tired of all you kiddos whining about Reflection. Why don't you just stay at RSBot if you like it much more there?
    I don't see the bias in my 'summary'. All we're pointing out is that there are several flaws to SRL (again, the antirandoms being prevalent), and providing an opinion to a possible fix, which would help, don't deny that, in the botting point of view. As for staying away from here, why can I not provide my opinion as to how to make SRL better? I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm trying to help. Undoubtfully, that last sentence will be met with "Do something if you want to help"

    @RAM - I'm not here to 'stir shit up'. I care about this community, and I'm sorry if my opinion on how to improve this is seen as a drama act... As for apples on oranges, my mistake, sorry. I didn't realize that fact (which RM brought up, the post I'm assuming you referred to. EDIT: Oh, you were referring to n3ss3s'. I don't think that was an unfair comparison; why bother with reflection/OpenGL at all if it's uncomparable?) when I wrote some of the things I did. Please point out if I'm making unfair comparisons, I never mean to do so.

    And, for the umpteenth time:

    Most of my arguments above are assuming SRL wants to become a better autoing community, which is not the case, so I guess they don't apply. What I don't understand now is how you can try to do both: become great autoers yet keep the challenges of color there. I'm not satisfied with Yohojo's response. If you support reflection or OpenGL, most new scripters will take one or the other instead of color (Most of you came here with the intention of RS botting, not programming, so it's reasonable to think people would choose the more advanced techniques). Your goal is to give people the experience of coding with many challenges, correct? By supporting those things, you are, in effect, vastly decreasing the 'challenge' that you're looking are. Again, I don't see a middle route as being feasible.

    Maybe it's just me, but why is everyone being so hostile? I don't understand why Camaro and I must be hated for providing suggestions.
    Last edited by Runescapian321; 02-07-2010 at 07:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mastaraymond View Post
    I think it's a bit short-sighted to say that everyone who likes Reflections should leave this community.
    I'm telling everyone who wants the SRL core to use Reflection to leave if they can't stand that it won't happen. Different thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    Well Naike said he & RM couldn't do it, so I assumed it was harder than it looks. If it's so easy, why can only a few people do it, and those who try to learn seem to have many troubles?



    I don't see the bias in my 'summary'. All we're pointing out is that there are several flaws to SRL (again, the antirandoms being prevalent), and providing an opinion to a possible fix, which would help, don't deny that, in the botting point of view. As for staying away from here, why can I not provide my opinion as to how to make SRL better? I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm trying to help. Undoubtfully, that last sentence will be met with "Do something if you want to help"

    @RAM - I'm not here to 'stir shit up'. I care about this community, and I'm sorry if my opinion on how to improve this is seen as a drama act... As for apples on oranges, my mistake, sorry. I didn't realize that fact (which RM brought up, the post I'm assuming you referred to. EDIT: Oh, you were referring to n3ss3s'. I don't think that was an unfair comparison; why bother with reflection/OpenGL at all if it's uncomparable?) when I wrote some of the things I did. Please point out if I'm making unfair comparisons, I never mean to do so.
    Your sudden leave was certainly an act of drama. And unjustified too, as JAD (and I) later showed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    And, for the umpteenth time:
    SRL won't become a better macro community if it starts using reflection. It will become a typical example of the Xth Reflection bot that claims to do new things.
    Last edited by Wizzup?; 02-07-2010 at 07:14 PM.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    Well Naike said he & RM couldn't do it, so I assumed it was harder than it looks. If it's so easy, why can only a few people do it, and those who try to learn seem to have many troubles?
    Neither me or RM have any experience/knowledge.. I think that's an adding factor to our great achievement of failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    And, for the umpteenth time:

    Supporting reflection won't give the challenge you speak of. To give people the challenge you're speaking of we'd have to support java in its entirety, not reflection.

    And by supporting reflection rather than java as whole we also stop giving so much support to the skills you learn through color.

    edit: @Naike: I do have some basic knowledge, as I do use it in uni althogh it's not an IT course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post

    Your sudden leave was certainly an act of drama. And unjustified too, as JAD (and I) later showed.
    Why bring the past into this? Yes, I agree I went over the top then, I was frustrated, sorry for that (although I don't agree with everything you said then, I'm not going to argue it, it's not worth it and neither of us will ever change our minds).

    SRL won't become a better macro community if it starts using reflection. It will become a typical example of the Xth Reflection bot that claims to do new things.
    That's not my point in the quote which you quoted. I'm questioning why SRL should support Reflection or OpenGL at all if the goal of SRL is to retain challenging scripts in color, which is what I gathered from everyone's responses. Simply put, I don't see how a half-working reflection benefits SRL.

    EDIT: @RM, see above paragraph.
    Last edited by Runescapian321; 02-07-2010 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but why is everyone being so hostile? I don't understand why Camaro and I must be hated for providing suggestions.
    We aren't trying to be hostile. You are providing any suggestions at all, you are saying obvious things that everyone knows and has known forever. Yea sure, reflection is 'better in all ways' compared to color, we get what you're trying to tell us, yet we still like all of the aspects of color scripting! What are you trying to convince us of?! We all know you think ref is the shit, color is the shit [bad shit!] that's fine, use RsBot/iBot then, we aren't forcing you to use Color/SRL and we all know everyone thinks reflection is much better, but we just prefer color, weather you understand why we do or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but why is everyone being so hostile? I don't understand why Camaro and I must be hated for providing suggestions.
    Probably because this is by far NOT the first time this was made as a suggestion, and it always ends in the same arguments.....


    SRL is devoted to color finding routines, although the community has become more open minded towards new methods, we have and always will be based on color...if you want to use other methods, that's your choice, just know thre are other comunities that will better to support your choice...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasta Magician View Post
    @Naike: I do have some basic knowledge, as I do use it in uni althogh it's not an IT course.
    I was talking about the client/reflection , not java..

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    If there was a tutorial on how to look at the runescape source code and know how to translate that into math in SCAR I could fix reflection, but I'm not taking the time to learn java. The hooks are easy to get.

    SCAR could compete with rsbot in terms of reflection, just because it's not a java bot like some of you say it is and will never compete in the java world, this isn't true. The plugin folder makes it possible (especially in the future with scar 3.5 luna and 4.0+ where compiling time run time will be near pure delphi) it's more about how reflection is used. I mean when you give reflection to an rsbot script kiddie the script isn't going to be nearly as good as if you gave it to anyone who is experienced in color botting, even if their base is entirely java and ours is kinda a rigged up plugin.

    I really disagree with the randoms solving being impossible, just look through Iroki plugin.dpr source file... anything can be done in color with enough skill. And as far as I've seen

    Lamp,Box ect.. - A high success rate
    Abyss - High success rate
    Evilbob - Since naum made his solver, a high success rate
    Beekeeper - High success rate
    Frog - A high success rate

    Demon - A good success rate
    Forester - A good success rate, probably a high one now with TriLez tweaking last night
    Molly - A good success rate
    Sandwich lady- A good success rate
    Pillory - A good success rate, detecting if in the random still might need tweaking itself
    Pinball - A good success rate
    Quiz - A good success rate

    Maze - Alright, but needs tweaking from game update. Naum is on it
    Mime - Alright, but needs tweaking from game update. Naum is on it
    Mordaut - Needs tweaking from game update
    CapnArrav - Possible but needs tweaking from game update
    Certer - Works a good success rate, but it doesn't know when to exit, a small fix.

    Prison pete - You have 14 minutes before it blocks you out, I seriously doubt any bot out there has a reliable solver for this ATM.

    Tell me, what does rsbot have?
    Last edited by Wanted; 02-07-2010 at 07:38 PM.

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    When did anyone officially say SRL supported reflection or OpenGL intercepting? To my knowledge it has been permitted to be discussed etc on the forums and that's about it, but nothing about combining the includes or the like - just because some people want it to happen doesn't mean it will. What's more is it isn't ignorance through which people dismiss reflection like you so boldly suggest in your posts.

    I think it's ignorance on your behalf. Why should a whole community convert to your views? You can always start your own community - if it's better then people will probably flock to it. If it isn't, then at least you haven't destroyed a large and vibrant community.
    By reading this signature you agree that mixster is superior to you in each and every way except the bad ways but including the really bad ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Probably because this is by far NOT the first time this was made as a suggestion, and it always ends in the same arguments.....
    I never said it was, and the reason I came to this thread is because I was trying to finally comprehend the reasoning. All the past arguments ended with 'We want a challenge', or open ended things like that.

    Here is what I've concluded...
    • SRL wishes to keep color for the challenges it provides
    • Programming challenges first; Autoing second
    • Although the include is not functioning all that well, there is no desire to change anything because
      • Lack of experience with other methods
      • Unappealing (lack of) challenges in other methods
    • Other methods are being used (sparingly), solely because a few members wish to try something different (IMO, I find this pointless, but I guess it's not up to SRL as to how the include and Scar/Simba are used)


    Yes?

    EDIT: Icefire:

    Maze: (Perfect)
    ScapeRune (Prison): (Works, but need some testing)
    Bot Login: (Perfect)
    Exam: (Perfect)
    Frog: (Perfect)
    Molly: (Perfect)
    Quiz: (Perfect)
    Pillory: (Perfect)
    ScapeRune (Island): (Perfect)
    Mime: (Perfect)
    Pinball: (Perfect)
    Bank Pins: (Perfect)
    Beekeeper: (Perfect)
    Break Handler: (Perfect)
    Captain Arnav: (Perfect)
    Certer: (Perfect)
    Drill Demon: (Perfect)
    First Time Death: (Perfect)
    Freaky Forester: (Perfect)
    Gravedigger: (Perfect)
    Improved Reward Box: (Perfect)
    Leave Safe Area (Perfect)
    Lost and Found: (Perfect)
    Sandwich Lady: (Perfect)
    Welcome Screen: (Perfect)
    Judging from recent user responses, there are 1-3 that may not have a 100% success rate.
    Last edited by Runescapian321; 02-07-2010 at 07:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    Maze: (Perfect)
    ScapeRune (Prison): (Works, but need some testing)
    Bot Login: (Perfect)
    Exam: (Perfect)
    Frog: (Perfect)
    Molly: (Perfect)
    Quiz: (Perfect)
    Pillory: (Perfect)
    ScapeRune (Island): (Perfect)
    Mime: (Perfect)
    Pinball: (Perfect)
    Bank Pins: (Perfect)
    Beekeeper: (Perfect)
    Break Handler: (Perfect)
    Captain Arnav: (Perfect)
    Certer: (Perfect)
    Drill Demon: (Perfect)
    First Time Death: (Perfect)
    Freaky Forester: (Perfect)
    Gravedigger: (Perfect)
    Improved Reward Box: (Perfect)
    Leave Safe Area (Perfect)
    Lost and Found: (Perfect)
    Sandwich Lady: (Perfect)
    Welcome Screen: (Perfect)
    Judging from recent user responses, there are 1-3 that may not have a 100% success rate.
    Yea it's actually nothing like that at all.

    I doubt their leo works, I've seen so many rsbot accounts ect in pillory, scaperune. Their random solving is about the same (over all), and the fact that they exaggerate it is funny reminds me of ibot 2 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceFire908 View Post
    Yea it's actually nothing like that at all.

    I doubt their leo works, I've seen so many rsbot accounts ect in pillory, scaperune. Their random solving is about the same (over all), and the fact that they exaggerate it is funny reminds me of ibot 2 years ago.
    It states Scaperune isn't finished, and pillory is another one of the 1-3 I was referring to. From experience (I was running a bot 12 hours a day last week), it only got caught in a random once that whole time, in pillory.

    Regardless, this doesn't matter. Is my last post correct or incorrect?

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    If reflection was fixed, I would use it (as I have used in the past). But I'm not going to fix it myself because it requires more than just getting the hooks right now.

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    This is such an (pointless) ancient discussion...

    SCAR/SRL will never be as efficient as a pure object oriented program. We're not going to be able to run one account at 24/7 (assuming that RSBOT seems to be able to...). It's going to stop somewhere because of SCAR faults/SRL faults.

    Fix these faults with reflection...? Why don't we just switchover to a program completely coded with Java? Wouldn't that be even better...?

    IMO, this is completely a difference in what we value.

    E: PLUS, it's not that we completely shun 'change'. It's broken. So it's just negatives over negatives.
    Last edited by WhiteShadow; 02-07-2010 at 08:00 PM.

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    If anyone wants to see the porgress on fixing reflecton PM me and i will sho you it


    srry if this is not what you guys are looking for but I cant follow this thread

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    I would still push towards mastering the art of hybrid color reflection, but it is a huge pain in the ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    Here is what I've concluded...
    • SRL wishes to keep color for the challenges it provides
    • Programming challenges first; Autoing second
    • Although the include is not functioning all that well, there is no desire to change anything because
      • Lack of experience with other methods
      • Unappealing (lack of) challenges in other methods

    • Other methods are being used (sparingly), solely because a few members wish to try something different (IMO, I find this pointless, but I guess it's not up to SRL as to how the include and Scar/Simba are used)


    Yes?

    Regardless, this doesn't matter. Is my last post correct or incorrect?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Which include are you refering to...
    SRL ? I think it is functioning quite well compared to the active number of devolopers and their work load here and in RL...
    Reflection ?...Yes, lack of experience, I think everyone that has actually taken the time to download everything need to fix it..Java, Java development kits, updaters, etc. have come to the conclusion...that a couple hours, weeks or even months are not sufficient enough time to fully comprehend and learn everything needed to fix it...Challenge...there is enough challenge in writing a color script, then learning a new method simply to try and compete with other communities...this is what doesn't make sense to me....
    Yes. Other methods are being explored simply out of interest..Since when is "Knowledge Pointless" ?

    AGAIN......

    SRL is devoted to color finding routines, although the community has become more open minded towards new methods, we have and always will be based on color...if you want to use other methods, that's your choice, just know thre are other comunities that will better to support your choice...

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShadow View Post
    We're not going to be able to run one account at 24/7 (assuming that RSBOT seems to be able to...). It's going to stop somewhere because of SCAR faults/SRL faults.
    and that leads us to another important aspect of SRL...Responsible Autoing.....It does happen, but rarely to legitimate players keep their account logged in for 24/7...I know of plenty of SRL scripts that will run on 1 player extended periods of time, but why jeopardize your account ?
    Last edited by RAM; 02-07-2010 at 08:21 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Which include are you refering to...
    SRL ? I think it is functioning quite well compared to the active number of devolopers and their work load here and in RL...
    Reflection ?...Yes, lack of experience, I think everyone that has actually taken the time to download everything need to fix it..Java, Java development kits, updaters, etc. have come to the conclusion...that a couple hours, weeks or even months are not sufficient enough time to fully comprehend and learn everything needed to fix it...Challenge...there is enough challenge in writing a color script, then learning a new method simply to try and compete with other communities...this is what doesn't make sense to me....
    Yes. Other methods are being explored simply out of interest..Since when is "Knowledge Pointless" ?

    AGAIN......
    I understand that Devs and everyone else have things to do other than develop SRL. I'm talking about the state of the antirandoms and such, relative to other communities.

    By pointless I mean not worth it. If you want to use reflection-like methods, it's not worth doing it at SRL. Now, after reading this thread, I agree/understand that implementing reflection into SRL is not feasible. SRL is made for the joys of programming, not to be the best RS auto.

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    By pointless I mean not worth it. If you want to use reflection-like methods, it's not worth doing it at SRL. Now, after reading this thread, I agree/understand that implementing reflection into SRL is not feasible. SRL is made for the joys of programming.
    But once reflection is fixed people will DEFINITELY fork SRL into an reflection include also. It just wont be OFFICIAL, but I can definitely see all of the reflection lovers converting all of SRL into reflection, making their own SVN, and everyone can choose what they want to use!

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoHoJo View Post
    But once reflection is fixed people will DEFINITELY fork SRL into an reflection include also. It just wont be OFFICIAL, but I can definitely see all of the reflection lovers converting all of SRL into reflection, making their own SVN, and everyone can choose what they want to use!
    SRL Reflection:
    • Challenge is less than Color
    • Effectiveness is less than Java Bots


    Lose-lose, the way I see it.

    EDIT: Didn't notice you say that there will be a whole include of reflection: That didn't happen the first time, why would it happen now? All that might have happened since then is several reflection supporters have left. And even if it was to happen, the issue of using Pascal for something Java is made for makes it less effective no matter what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    SRL Reflection:
    • Effectiveness is less than Java Bots
    How so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceFire908 View Post
    How so?
    The using pascal as java issue and the lack of suitable leadership for what would essentially be nearly a whole new bot (resulting in a less stable include). Basically most of the reasons that have been thrown against me for the first part of the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoHoJo View Post
    But once reflection is fixed people will DEFINITELY fork SRL into an reflection include also. It just wont be OFFICIAL, but I can definitely see all of the reflection lovers converting all of SRL into reflection, making their own SVN, and everyone can choose what they want to use!
    I expected Method to do that ages ago honestly..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tad View Post
    The using pascal as java issue and the lack of suitable leadership for what would essentially be nearly a whole new bot (resulting in a less stable include). Basically most of the reasons that have been thrown against me for the first part of the thread.
    Why don't you and Camaro fix it , then Lead the way ? It was your suggestion after all ...


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