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Thread: Why do we bother?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakan View Post
    Reflection 2.2 will be fully compatible and usable with SRL, but it will be independent, so SRL doesn't HAVE to be used.
    Nice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coh3n View Post
    SRL won't die, the community will always be here. To answer the hooks question, yes, hooks are updated within an hour or so, and depending on the RS update, it can take weeks (depending on scripter's time) to update colour scripts.

    Exactly.
    Color just as well wont die, and it would be foolish for us to let it die. Infact color will always be available to use for scripting even though it's not really being developed. No matter what Jagex updates in Rs you will always be able to use color in some way, because color basically reads the colors on the screen/interface/minimap/chat etc etc... and acts accordingly.

    You cannot say the same for Java/reflection... Sure reflection right now is pretty much flawless and the most easiest and most efficient way to make a script. BUT if Jagex were to update something in there game engine or implement something to stop us from obtaining hooks or do something to stop us from getting hold of the client then, that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for reflection.

    Color can be just as efficient as reflection; even though you may have to do so much extra coding (which is a damn good thing you lazy people lol). We could develop some easy to use/efficient procedures/functions for color right just as well, no? Honestly If I wanted to be a super leet programmer I would learn how to code with color 1st.

    But its pretty stupid right now to say color is better than reflection for making Runescape scripts. Reflection is superior over color in every category. It's already been proven that you can make crazy ass scripts with Java/reflection(iDungeon). But how reliable is it? What if I wake up tomorrow and find that Reflection is no longer usable? Then what?

    The point is clear: Color even though it's harder to use and implement, will always be available. Reflection despite it being super awesome/efficient and easy to use, can be unreliable and if Jagex updates something big then its pretty much dead. I don't know about you people but I still feel that Jagex will do a major update along with a mass ban . Yall remember when Jagex tried to take us out when they made colors ingame change over a period of time to throw off scripts? Well we got it around it!

    So that's what makes SRL unique and beautiful. We have a failsafe for everything.

    Oh and you know those leachers at Rsbot and Rsbuddy? Well they will come back right here.
    Last edited by kingarabian; 09-16-2011 at 10:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    The point is clear: Color even though it's harder to use and implement, will always be available. Reflection despite it being super awesome/efficient and easy to use, can be unreliable and if Jagex updates something big then its pretty much dead. I don't know about you people but I still feel that Jagex will do a major update along with a mass ban . Yall remember when Jagex tried to take us out when they made colors ingame change over a period of time to throw off scripts? Well we got it around it!
    Love this statement. Nicely said.

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    always keep ideas flowing and if old ideas, advance on them.


    Even though it is old and dusty, still doesnt mean it cant be dusted off, thought upon, and changed into a brand new idea+new creation.

    Edit: also keep all options open because you never know :P
    Last edited by FornxXx; 09-16-2011 at 11:55 PM.

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    I use color all the time when I need a small/ easy script. Once you have one object finder, you can adapt it to what ever you could possibly need it for, and to be honest, I think it's much easier to gather colors than tiles + id's. Then obviously there are times(like MTA) when reflection is just required, but I would like to use color when ever i can
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    Just as a comparison, When AR thrived and then got nerfed by the Jagsters, it was quite the hit to the cheating community. Thankfully Kait was awesome and loved his people, but if he wouldn't have cared, RS cheating would've been quite different. It would be naive of us to assume Reflection will always be a viable botting method. It would be even more naive to not use this time to thrive with reflection, though.

    Also, "because color basically reads the colors on the screen/interface/minimap/chat etc etc..." tell me your secrets, wizard. (lol srsly, that made me "LOL" irl, lol. lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by i luffs yeww View Post
    Just as a comparison, When AR thrived and then got nerfed by the Jagsters, it was quite the hit to the cheating community. Thankfully Kait was awesome and loved his people, but if he wouldn't have cared, RS cheating would've been quite different. It would be naive of us to assume Reflection will always be a viable botting method. It would be even more naive to not use this time to thrive with reflection, though.

    Also, "because color basically reads the colors on the screen/interface/minimap/chat etc etc..." tell me your secrets, wizard. (lol srsly, that made me "LOL" irl, lol. lol)
    ians a blue duck. CSS.

    I have seen you :P sorry for offtopicness.

    anyways, always advance whats there,keep it simple as possible, and listen to music after brainstorming :P *also get a drink too* :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Reflection despite it being super awesome/efficient and easy to use, can be unreliable and if Jagex updates something big then its pretty much dead. I don't know about you people but I still feel that Jagex will do a major update along with a mass ban .
    I've been anticipating this for a while now. But I lean more to the idea of this not happening because of how much it would hurt business for them. I think if anything close to this was to be done, they'd take out (regular) pking, trade limits, things like that, then atleast 70% of the bots would thus become useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by pyroryan
    They are different tools. Use the one that works best for the task. For example, OCR should be used for NPC chatting.
    Definitely agree with this. I've made a handful of my own reflection functions with the only difference being SRL's OCR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Color just as well wont die, and it would be foolish for us to let it die. Infact color will always be available to use for scripting even though it's not really being developed. No matter what Jagex updates in Rs you will always be able to use color in some way, because color basically reads the colors on the screen/interface/minimap/chat etc etc... and acts accordingly.

    You cannot say the same for Java/reflection... Sure reflection right now is pretty much flawless and the most easiest and most efficient way to make a script. BUT if Jagex were to update something in there game engine or implement something to stop us from obtaining hooks or do something to stop us from getting hold of the client then, that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for reflection.

    Color can be just as efficient as reflection; even though you may have to do so much extra coding (which is a damn good thing you lazy people lol). We could develop some easy to use/efficient procedures/functions for color right just as well, no? Honestly If I wanted to be a super leet programmer I would learn how to code with color 1st.

    But its pretty stupid right now to say color is better than reflection for making Runescape scripts. Reflection is superior over color in every category. It's already been proven that you can make crazy ass scripts with Java/reflection(iDungeon). But how reliable is it? What if I wake up tomorrow and find that Reflection is no longer usable? Then what?

    The point is clear: Color even though it's harder to use and implement, will always be available. Reflection despite it being super awesome/efficient and easy to use, can be unreliable and if Jagex updates something big then its pretty much dead. I don't know about you people but I still feel that Jagex will do a major update along with a mass ban . Yall remember when Jagex tried to take us out when they made colors ingame change over a period of time to throw off scripts? Well we got it around it!

    So that's what makes SRL unique and beautiful. We have a failsafe for everything.

    Oh and you know those leachers at Rsbot and Rsbuddy? Well they will come back right here.
    I think you need to understand how it all works before saying jagex can just stop letting us "obtain hooks". Obviously if it was possible to stop they would do it, but it just isn't. There is always a way to reverse engineer. It's code. They can change the game engine and break all the hooks, and it might temporarily stop reflection (for a week or 2), but same thing can go with color. Just as they made the color changing and it stopped us for a bit, we got around it and moved on. Who's to say they wouldn't do that for color? My point is, they can't just make it so we can't "obtain hooks". Its a native java thing to be able to run through the bytecode of compiled java classes and search for patterns and read fields.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coh3n View Post
    I'm not necessarily talking about you or I or any of the older members because there are those few that enjoy colour scripting for the challenge. You can't deny that colour is slowly being forgotten, especially since development of SRL4 and 5 has basically been stopped for months. Yeah, I'm sure some people still find it fun, and that's great, but 90% of current scripters and 99% of future ones use and will use Reflection.
    Just to expand on this a bit; ever since I became a developer (and even before) I've been pushing people to help get involved with solving randoms. Not even to test or code for them necessarily (though that would be nice), but simply lend an account or at the very least a debug log for a random. I've got maybe one or two the whole time. (Ever since after Squancy loaned me all those accounts)


    @The whole "why do we bother" thing: I will probably always use color object finding. I absolutely love working with arrays and searching algorithms and honestly, just having fun with my code.

    I often times use reflection for walking when I'm just throwing something together quick to be used for a short period of time, but other wise I'd still use color.

    As you previously stated, there are (unfortunately) only a few of us that feel that way. I don't ever think we should stop support of a color version of SRL though. Color is far to great of a learning tool to ever be discarded by an intelligent programming community.

    I would also like to bring up one point. WT_Fawki stated in our 'mission statement' that our goal is to be the few that blend in among the legit RS. With all this talk about 'flourishing' in the RS cheating scene I doubt that would be so true any more. I personally like the fact that when I run a script, I can watch and see everyone else that's botting because they all run the same paths etc. then I'm off on my own doing my own thing. I don't want SRL to become like RSBuddy or RSBot or any other java bot. Sure I would love to see more activity, but we have to keep pushing onward with color as well, it keeps us who we are, honestly.

    My opinion, sorry for bouncing around in that.

    (On a side note: I do plan to pick up SRL development a bit more now that the big MSI update is out of the way, plus my hours are finally going down. )

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    @NCDS: I definitely agree with you on the mission statement and I _never_ want that to go away. I still find pride in SRL scripts being the ones that do stand out differently from other bots, and I believe that is all up to the scripter. It's not color or reflection that makes it, its the scripter and communities. If things are over abused, or theres not enough randomness and effort put into a script, then it happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCDS
    WT_Fawki stated in our 'mission statement' that our goal is to be the few that blend in among the legit RS. With all this talk about 'flourishing' in the RS cheating scene I doubt that would be so true any more.
    If I may comment on this, I believe the factor of blending in with legit players has nothing to do with Color/Reflection, but rather it's determined on the scripter's style and use of what's available. The same procedures we have for anti-bans and human characteristics that we have in the SRL include can, without a doubt, be applied to Reflection.

    We can keep keep our infamous tradition of reflecting human characteristics in our scripts no matter how we do it, as that shouldn't be limited to Color only.

    Edit:
    Ah hell, ya beat me to it, Drakan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flight View Post
    Edit:
    Ah hell, ya beat me to it, Drakan.
    Buahaha >=)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakan View Post
    @NCDS: I definitely agree with you on the mission statement and I _never_ want that to go away. I still find pride in SRL scripts being the ones that do stand out differently from other bots, and I believe that is all up to the scripter. It's not color or reflection that makes it, its the scripter and communities. If things are over abused, or theres not enough randomness and effort put into a script, then it happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flight View Post
    If I may comment on this, I believe the factor of blending in with legit players has nothing to do with Color/Reflection, but rather it's determined on the scripter's style and use of what's available. The same procedures we have for anti-bans and human characteristics that we have in the SRL include can, without a doubt, be applied to Reflection.

    We can keep keep our infamous tradition of reflecting human characteristics in our scripts no matter how we do it, as that shouldn't be limited to Color only.
    I was more so talking about the abuse of the scripts here. Although, I do find that Reflection often times does things even better than a human would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCDS View Post
    I was more so talking about the abuse of the scripts here. Although, I do find that Reflection often times does things even better than a human would.
    I'm guessing that's more on the scripter's side. I don't know much about the Reflection include, but I imagine each method does what it's supposed to, and it's up the the scripter to add randomness.

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    Someone doesn't remember their history.

    In defense of color scripting I'll outline why we bother.

    At SRL's peak, roughly 6 months before KYAB, color based scripting was unmatched. There were working anti-randoms, a solid include base, reliable scripts, and most importantly: RS GP was priced at $5 USD/ 1000k gp minimum, private and trust-able sources sold for as much as 10usd/gp.

    SRL was so successful during this time that it incurred interest from people of other big communities of the day, namely: iBot/Nexus ...namely solarwind, sengo, ruler, Genodemon etc. in fact solar brought back an idea of Ruler and Geno's (which was to use SCAR's interface to interact with Nexus) in order to draw more interest from the large SRL user base into java related botting. The general consensus at the time was JAVA = BAD.

    Obviously, such as a task was challenging so solarwind essentially asked for the help of BenLand100 and they were able to come out with the end product KYAB (Kick Your Ass Bot) to give SCAR users the ability to use compass independent/dependent walking, NPC and type UIDS, and other minor things like compass angle. There was about a half dozen to dozen useful resources like those but only a small fraction of what there is in current reflection. KYAB was a fantastic solution to my RCrB (multi-runecrafter) at the time I was able to use types and uids to do all the banking and altar finding and the compass independent walking to make it everywhere I needed to go. Needless to say I finished months of work in less than a week.

    2 weeks after KYAB was dropped by BenLand100 for its large rejection by mainstream SRL solar had formed his own community (lol? forums anyways) that handled everything KYAB and the KYAB section was removed from SRL completely. At about the same time all of KYAB except for compass dependent (means you have to face north, and it's not that accurate) walking was available. In blatant terms, KYAB went from being awesome to useless, but despite this the community held on for quite some time in hopes of 'progress' which never truly came.

    Somewhere around the same time Jagex came out with a big fat 'fuck you' and decided to remove all unbalanced trade and eliminate any other means of making off with money involving staking limits, remove wilderness, Grand exchange. This significantly and quickly killed off user bases in every community. SRL took quite the hit. Many left, others stayed but lost interest. Needless to say, SRL was never the same.

    It must of been over a year after KYAB that BenLand100 came back and used his SMART client with integrated reflection. This is what I call reflection 2. It lasted for a good 6-12 months... hard to remember.

    This is about the time Runetek(5?) I think it was 5... came out and completely screwed reflection. I mean it was almost an entire year or was it more? before 1) the hooks were working and 2) the SCAR side code that took the hooks and made it into useful data. This is what I call reflection 3.

    Runetek 5 made SRL4 include take quite the hit. Many of the things that SRL designed with originally were now impractical and the structure didn't make much sense with the new runescape, but things were patched and continued to on. This was largely the first big acceleration of the downfall of the SRL include. Only a few devs picked it back up to keep it alive... I remember how much work Zeph did just to keep it going. Times were tough though... the lack of interest was a big factor.

    What really did in SRL4 was the introduction of simba. Not only was the include deteriorated from runetek5 and the lack of interest and activity, now you have an include that was originally designed for runetek4 and SCAR to run with runetek5 and simba/SCAR compatible, and on top of the lack of interest. Many of the people who do not actually work on the include themselves anymore still want to give input on how things are done in the include when they don't realize how messed up things really are. This is where you get the current horrible state the SRL color include is in.

    Timer decided to write his own reflection include, RRL, because reflection"3" was becoming chaotic. RRL never went anywhere just yet because there's no practical use for it. However, this did give people a reason to focus on refleciton and make it into the nice reflection"2" (really 4th) that you see now.

    You all know that I'm writing my own color include now over at scar-div (info in sig, not going to reexplain here) this is so that there is a new include that is not influenced by inactive people who want their say and a fresh start to something that will be designed for SCAR/runetek5 so that it will actually be solid.

    For all you people who think reflection is all the awesome and color is something is not worth bothering, sorry you're all not thinking logically.

    Go actually learn Java the native language of runescape and use REAL reflection with a java bot and quit wasting your time with some weird pascalscript related BS.

    Color is here for the challenge and fun that reminds us old timers of the glory days.

    It's like having the first muscle cars that came out in the 60s.

    Reliable and awesome in other ways.
    Last edited by Wanted; 09-17-2011 at 06:58 AM.

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    @Wanted: 98% of that entire post had absolutely nothing to do with OP. That being said, yes reflection is for challenge and fun, we've stated that. No one asked for a history lesson and I don't see where it applied at all in the conversation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanted View Post
    For all you people who think reflection is all the awesome and color is something is not worth bothering, sorry you're all not thinking logically.
    I'd kinda like a little more explanation on this, as I don't really understand why you'd say that. The purpose of this particular thread is discussing the purpose of using Color for Runescape scripts while we already have Reflection available. It's in every way 'logical' to use our best methods that we have available. But this doesn't mean color is "not worth bothering", when did anybody, at any point, make that statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanted View Post
    Go actually learn Java the native language of runescape and use REAL reflection with a java bot and quit wasting your time with some weird pascalscript related BS.
    It obviously works just fine... Here the SRL and Reflection includes can coexist just fine together, we can use them both at any time. Do you get that with other java bots? Why does our Reflection make you so upset?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanted View Post
    Color is here for the challenge and fun that reminds us old timers of the glory days.
    This response is actually related to the thread, so that's good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakan
    @Wanted: 98% of that entire post had absolutely nothing to do with OP. That being said, yes reflection is for challenge and fun, we've stated that. No one asked for a history lesson and I don't see where it applied at all in the conversation.
    ^ Very much agreed...

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    Very nice IceFire, and nicely put.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakan View Post
    @Wanted: 98% of that entire post had absolutely nothing to do with OP. That being said, yes reflection is for challenge and fun, we've stated that. No one asked for a history lesson and I don't see where it applied at all in the conversation.
    You're not seeing the bigger picture.

    The history lesson/98% or whatever is made to illustrate a different point.

    If someone wants the greatest there is is they would be inclined enough to use the native language of runescape from the start via a real Javabot like powerbot/rsbot.

    Obviously people stick around because there's more to it than that.

    Color scripting is the purest form of the other side of that.

    If it were easy to explain, then this thread wouldn't exist.. would it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanted View Post
    If someone wants the greatest there is is they would be inclined enough to use the native language of runescape from the start via a real Javabot like powerbot/rsbot.
    The fact that you mention powerbot in the same sentence as "the greatest there is" clearly shows your ignorance towards rs client hacking. If I wanted to use an already created bot that is completely bloated with crap then I could go there and waste my time, but I'd rather be here, where I don't get flamed for posting anything intelligent(that is basically the reaction you get from most javabot forums). Nothing is wrong with our implementation of reflection, it is not pascalscript based(as was proved with Kronos). It's using the flexible cross-language tool - JNI(specifically created for using java functions with a different language).

    That being said, I like color and reflection equally....but I currently use reflection because its the only sensible thing to use to compete with massive botting.

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    I never understood the purpose of scripting in colour to give myself as a challenge, for me it has always been about the end result; getting lots of dosh or experience.

    Personally I don't look to colour scripting for a challenge because there are lots of other things that interest me much, much more. And I think, a lot more rewarding too (in the material sense). Colour scripting is just too bland for me.

    To each their own though, I suppose.



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    What we really need is more (new) people that is actually interested in Runescape and want to learn scripting imo.



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    Quote Originally Posted by SubiN View Post
    What we really need is more (new) people that is actually interested in Runescape and want to learn scripting imo.
    Yes.

    This same topic has been brought up in the past. I personally thought when SCAR was at its worst stage would of been a great time to really re-work the SRL/Reflection includes instead of working on Simba.
    Last edited by Camaro'; 09-17-2011 at 02:19 PM.

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    Coh3n, I'm wondering, is this thread leaning more twords MSI running in color and not Reflection, or development in all scripts?

    It just seems like me MSI is the heart of Color scripting here at SRL, so if this topic were to target anything in general, it would be MSI.

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