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Thread: Creationism in School?

  1. #226
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    All those theory are basicaly division of evolution. None of them deny that we evolved.

    I don't say you can't talk about religion in school. You can talk about the diversity of religion in moral class, philosphy or whatever they call it in your country. It just shouldn't propose it as a alternative to evolution in science class, because evolution is science, and religion is, well, religion.

    Religion isn't meant to be taught in science class just like evolution isn't meant to be taught in church.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    Well, I'd say at least over 90% of all biologists around the whole world will agree on that Darwin's theory is a correct, hell maybe they'd agree on it being a fact.

    Whereas Creationism I'd say about 1% of all biologists would agree on it, and only in the christian areas of the world.
    YOU would say? But what do they say? Also, they can not say it's fact because they feel like it's the best theory, it has to actually been proved to be considered fact. I'd also like to point out that scientists are supposed to conduct researches from an unbiased view, like a judge or jury, and called to only see the facts which are presented.

    While the number of scientists that don't believe in evolution may be the minority, that does not prove it as a false belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    Also, Religion is some sort of bullshit created by man because they know no better. God is God for those that believe in him; for the other part, he's just a word and an entity.
    The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic. - Charles Darwin
    Those God believers sure are idiots! Can't disagree with you there!

    [sarcasm] Also, Evolutionary theory is some sort of bullshit created by an old man because he was rebellious and didn't want to listen to mommy and daddy. Evolution is for those that want to be hardcore rebellious kids and weak religious people aren't allowed. [/sarcasm] (please refrain from using ad-hominems, they don't help your case, thank you)

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh81193 View Post
    YOU would say? But what do they say? Also, they can not say it's fact because they feel like it's the best theory, it has to actually been proved to be considered fact. I'd also like to point out that scientists are supposed to conduct researches from an unbiased view, like a judge or jury, and called to only see the facts which are presented.

    While the number of scientists that don't believe in evolution may be the minority, that does not prove it as a false belief.

    Those God believers sure are idiots! Can't disagree with you there!
    In reality, everything is theories.

    You might say it's a fact that if you drop a ball, it's going to fall towards the earth; I'd say it's the best theory that mankind has though of for that specific phenomenon. Same goes with evolution; I'd say it's the best theory for that specific phenomenon, whereas others might call it a fact.

    Also, at what point did I say God believers are idiots?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    In reality, everything is theories.

    You might say it's a fact that if you drop a ball, it's going to fall towards the earth; I'd say it's the best theory that mankind has though of for that specific phenomenon. Same goes with evolution; I'd say it's the best theory for that specific phenomenon, whereas others might call it a fact.

    Also, at what point did I say God believers are idiots?
    Are you saying that you can never be sure of anything? You can't know anything for a fact?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    Are you saying that you can never be sure of anything? You can't know anything for a fact?
    No, that was not what I was saying, but yeah, good point. I guess one can not.

    Everything you sense is just electric stuff doing stuff in your brain. How do you know the stuff you think you see, hear, smell, feel, taste and sense in any other way is real or even there (Watch the movie The Matrix if you haven't. Great movie)

    Now, this though is a bit weird and you shouldn't really think too much about it, but really, "facts" are just theories that has been tested so many times, and not failed, that people believe there is no way it can fail..
    Last edited by Zyt3x; 03-23-2012 at 01:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    No, that was not what I was saying, but yeah, good point. I guess one can not.

    Everything you sense is just electric stuff doing stuff in your brain. How do you know the stuff you think you see, hear, smell, feel, taste and sense in any other way is real or even there (Watch the movie The Matrix if you haven't. Great movie)

    Now, this though is a bit weird and you shouldn't really think too much about it, but really, "facts" are just theories that has been tested so many times, and not failed, that people believe there is no way it can fail..
    How do you know that you can't know anything for sure? Is that a theory too?

    Also, if all there is is just electricity pulsing through our brains, then how can you account for general ideas such as numbers? If all humanity died and there was no life at all, would numbers still exist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    You might say it's a fact that if you drop a ball, it's going to fall towards the earth; I'd say it's the best theory that mankind has though of for that specific phenomenon. Same goes with evolution; I'd say it's the best theory for that specific phenomenon, whereas others might call it a fact.
    Yes, but you can observe gravity actively happening. Evolution is on such a grand scale that it is impossible to observe until we build a time machine, or if these same ideas are still being debated a million years in the future, then we will know for sure.

    But if you're going to go off on that tangent, you could say everything is limited by our words and our definitions, language. What really makes the color red, 'red'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    How do you know that you can't know anything for sure? Is that a theory too?
    Of course it is, what else could it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    Also, if all there is is just electricity pulsing through our brains, then how can you account for general ideas such as numbers? If all humanity died and there was no life at all, would numbers still exist?
    What are you even talking about, lol

    Numbers are just symbols humans have created to make it easier to show or write about a specific amount of whatever, without humans, there wouldn't be an idea of numbers.

    This works kind of like the economy and our money works; If one believes it works then it does work. Without humans to believe money has a value, it wouldn't have a value. Show a million dollars to an alien and he will say "What a big pile of paper and metal".

    Quote Originally Posted by josh81193 View Post
    Yes, but you can observe gravity actively happening. Evolution is on such a grand scale that it is impossible to observe until we build a time machine, or if these same ideas are still being debated a million years in the future, then we will know for sure.
    Wrong, scientists can actually see this happening every day.
    In animals with a short life span, like banana flies, one can make an environment where the flies with better genomes for surviving in X degrees and Y moisture will have a better chance of surviving, and then when they change the environment, they watch as evolution happens and those flies with the better genomes for that environment are being reproduced more.

    Quote Originally Posted by josh81193 View Post
    But if you're going to go off on that tangent, you could say everything is limited by our words and our definitions, language. What really makes the color red, 'red'?
    True. Perhaps the color "red" for me is the color "purple" for you, or maybe even a color outside of my span of colors?
    Last edited by Zyt3x; 03-23-2012 at 01:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    Of course it is, what else could it be?

    What are you even talking about, lol
    I'm saying that the belief that you can't prove things and that everything is a theory is not true. That belief is circular.

    For example:
    --Fact #1: There is no such things as facts. Everything is a theory!
    --Is Fact #1 also a theory?

    Numbers are just symbols humans have created to make it easier to show or write about a specific amount of whatever, without humans, there wouldn't be an idea of numbers.

    This works kind of like the economy and our money works; If one believes it works then it does work. Without humans to believe money has a value, it wouldn't have a value. Show a million dollars to an alien and he will say "What a big pile of paper and metal"
    Wait, I may have misunderstood you? Are you saying that everything you know is based on your sense or that you cannot trust your senses?

    Wrong, scientists can actually see this happening every day.
    In animals with a short life span, like banana flies, one can make an environment where the flies with better genomes for surviving in X degrees and Y moisture will have a better chance of surviving, and then when they change the environment, they watch as evolution happens and those flies with the better genomes for that environment are being reproduced more.
    That's micro-evolution. Is josh referring to macro or micro?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    Wrong, scientists can actually see this happening every day.
    In animals with a short life span, like banana flies, one can make an environment where the flies with better genomes for surviving in X degrees and Y moisture will have a better chance of surviving, and then when they change the environment, they watch as evolution happens and those flies with the better genomes for that environment are being reproduced more.
    Maybe I should specify I'm talking about the evolution of species, not natural selection. Macro-evolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    I'm saying that the belief that you can't prove things and that everything is a theory is not true. That belief is circular.

    For example:
    --Fact #1: There is no such things as facts. Everything is a theory!
    --Is Fact #1 also a theory?

    Wait, I may have misunderstood you? Are you saying that everything you know is based on your sense or that you cannot trust your senses?
    Is it really that hard to understand that everything you think/sense/whatever is just your brain "doing it's thing"?
    Sorry to be harsh, but you do know you're a human, right? How do humans work? They sense, think and does other stuff with their body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    That's micro-evolution. Is josh referring to macro or micro?
    Quote Originally Posted by josh81193 View Post
    Maybe I should specify I'm talking about the evolution of species, not natural selection. Macro-evolution.
    Ah, right, well, that *is* a bit hard to test, so I guess it'll take some time, if it hasn't been tested yet..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLpjlZlc2_c <- Watch this (and some of his others videos if you want to). Fast forward to 4:00 if you want to.
    Last edited by Zyt3x; 03-23-2012 at 02:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    Is it really that hard to understand that everything you think/sense/whatever is just your brain "doing it's thing"?
    Sorry to be harsh, but you do know you're a human, right? How do humans work? They sense, think and does other stuff with their body.
    It is difficult but I need substantiation for those claims I like to test all possibilities. And that line ideology brings tons of problems...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    It is difficult but I need substantiation for those claims I like to test all possibilities. And that line ideology brings tons of problems...
    What kind of problems?
    Unpleasantness? If so then I'd suggest a religion, they're full of reassuring and satisfying delusions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    What kind of problems?
    Unpleasantness? If so then I'd suggest a religion, they're full of reassuring and satisfying delusions
    lol funny.
    Well, if all we are is "matter in motion" then how do you explain society's structures and concepts such as morals? If all humans do is interpret things through our senses and react based on chemicals in our brain, then we don't have free will. We are forcefully controlled by these chemicals and nature. How can you explain people's ethics and morals?
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    The only diference between micro and macro evolution is time.

    Micro evolution: Small change
    Macro evolution: A collection of small changes.

    Accepting micro evolution but denying macro evolution is like saying that you it is possible to walk 10 meters but that walking 1km even if given enough time is impossible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir eska eau View Post
    The only diference between micro and macro evolution is time.

    Accepting micro evolution but denying macro evolution is like saying that you it is possible to walk 10 meters but that walking 1km even if given enough time is impossible.
    Incorrect. They are two totally different things. One is change withing a species. More people have blue eyes and less people have brown eyes. As opposed to change to another species. Humans turn into sharks.

    Will the world ever know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    Incorrect. They are two totally different things. One is change withing a species. More people have blue eyes and less people have brown eyes. As opposed to change to another species. Humans turn into sharks.

    Will the world ever know?
    What is a species. What makes a horse a horse.
    Are zebra horse? Are they the same species?

    The problem with your rebutal is that "species" are dynamic. It's hard to say when something change enough to become a new species.

    For example.. lets take color.
    -White------------------gray------------------black-

    Where EXACLY did the white turn into black? That's exacly the problem we got when talking about evolution "within a species".
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir eska eau View Post
    What is a species. What makes a horse a horse.
    Are zebra horse? Are they the same species?

    The problem with your rebutal is that "species" are dynamic. It's hard to say when something change enough to become a new species.

    For example.. lets take color.
    -White------------------gray------------------black-

    Where EXACLY did the white turn into black? That's exacly the problem we got when talking about evolution "within a species".
    The problem is that they turn into a new species.

    White can't turn into black out of nowhere. There had to have been an organism withing that species that had those specific alleles in their DNA. They don't develop those alleles out of nowhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    The problem is that they turn into a new species.

    White can't turn into black out of nowhere. There had to have been an organism withing that species that had those specific alleles in their DNA. They don't develop those alleles out of nowhere.
    Species can't turn into another species out of nowhere. It's a collection of gradual small changes and isolation, AKA macro evolution.

    I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean when you say that to organism withing that species had those specific alleles in their DNA. Do you mean that because that this new species came out of that previous species, it is therfore not a new species and the same thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir eska eau View Post
    Species can't turn into another species out of nowhere. It's a collection of gradual small changes and isolation, AKA macro evolution.

    I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean when you say that to organism withing that species had those specific alleles in their DNA. Do you mean that because that this new species came out of that previous species, it is therfore not a new species and the same thing?
    No i'm saying species change withing themselves. White can slowly turn to black through survival of the fittest. But there have to have been previous genetic traits of black in those white "sheep" (I guess)? The sheep is still a sheep no matter what. No you say, but what if there was thousands of more changes? Its not like a sheep is going to grow wings or a third set of feet out of nowhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endzior View Post
    Come to Poland. You waste 3h per week each year on religion. Times 10 years of learning. For a little comparison - I had about 1h per week of history, that's logic right there ! Not important if you remember anything about the ancestors I guess.
    And you don't learn about every religion there is, you just sit there and get ready to be made into a catholic, a true Pole as many right-wing parties tend to say. Guess I'm not a "real" nor "true" Pole then :<
    No true Pole would have used the word "waste". Going back to Poland this year.
    Plus, those classes/meeting were a great place to meet girls and chill with friends. Just to refresh my mind, how long are your school classes per day (varies 2-5 hours right)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yago View Post
    No i'm saying species change withing themselves. White can slowly turn to black through survival of the fittest. But there have to have been previous genetic traits of black in those white "sheep" (I guess)? The sheep is still a sheep no matter what. No you say, but what if there was thousands of more changes? Its not like a sheep is going to grow wings or a third set of feet out of nowhere.
    Well, take zebra for example. They are part of the horse family, just like we are part of the hominids familly (which include gorillas and chimpanzees). Now I'm pretty sure you would agree that chimpanzees and human are different species even if they are in the same familly.

    Donkeys, zebra are all part of the horse familly. Now here is a wierd thing, zebras are so close related to donkeys and horse that they can actually breed together. However the gap between those three species is too big, and therfore the offspring is sterile.

    This means that the zebra is doomed to separate itself more and more from modern horse and donkeys.

    Is this micro evolution or macro evolution? There is no doubt that Zebra aren't the same species as donkey and horses so this is macro evolution.
    Last edited by eska; 03-23-2012 at 03:00 AM.
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    evolution and creation can both be believed in its only the fact that some people have no idea what the other sides are talking about

    creationist often dont realise that alot of religious quotes are metaphors
    and evolutionist often do not know who or what god is

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    No one knows who or what god is, if it even exist.

    However some people think they do. They even think that they know the one true God personnaly, and the funniest thing is that they all contradict each others.
    Last edited by eska; 03-23-2012 at 09:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir eska eau View Post
    No one knows who or what god is, if it even exist.
    How do you know that no one knows?
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