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Thread: Creationism in School?

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    Quote Originally Posted by i luffs yeww View Post
    I challenge you to show that to be true..
    For what? A creationist getting into a debate with a person that believes in Evolution, and then the creationist staying calm, and the Evolutionist becoming pissed off and starts saying "NO! SCIENCE SAYS THIS SO ITS TRUE IT HAS TO BE TRUE IT MUST BE TRUE!"? It happens ALL THE TIME. You act like we creationists put our foot down and start getting pissed off, when in reality a lot of atheist start throwing insults out and get agitated any time someone mentions god.

    Your pictures are useless propaganda. When I hear an atheist going on about, I don't get mad at all, and I know many religious people who don't get mad - shit the majority don't even care.
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    For what? A creationist getting into a debate with a person that believes in Evolution, and then the creationist staying calm, and the Evolutionist becoming pissed off and starts saying "NO! SCIENCE SAYS THIS SO ITS TRUE IT HAS TO BE TRUE IT MUST BE TRUE!"? It happens ALL THE TIME. You act like we creationists put our foot down and start getting pissed off, when in reality a lot of atheist start throwing insults out and get agitated any time someone mentions god.

    Your pictures are useless propaganda. When I hear an atheist going on about, I don't get mad at all, and I know many religious people who don't get mad - shit the majority don't even care.
    The creationist in that comic being angry has absolutely nothing to do with anything. What I was trying to point out is that viruses evolve, and an easy way for people to understand that is that they have to get vaccinated yearly for the flu. Hard to refute that, really, and any scientist should back that up without question.

    EDIT:

    Same reason you can get the rhino virus all the time.. It evolves at a very rapid rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tarajunky View Post
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...aorganism.html

    Wow, a planetary macro-organism. So all the "evolutionists" believe that all life descended from a huge monster that completely filled the earth's ocean? This God-like planetary organism split into a holy trinity of bacterial life, eukaryotic life, and those oddball Archaea.

    What did your imaginary planetary monster look like? Something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FSM_Logo.svg
    No, generalizing all "evolutionists" based on an article in New Science isn't helping your case. In fact, the subsurface origin hypothesis explains the origin of LUCA based on the chemical reactions that occur when volcanic vents meet the cold ocean water. The primordial soup hypothesis, along the lines of the article you posted, does not account for the harsh conditions on earth's surface billions of years ago.

    Besides, the article is trying to spark interest. It is not suggesting that there was some "huge monster filling the ocean", but rather it is saying that there was free exchange of nutrients, DNA, ect. between the LUCA cells. This could be interpreted as one large "macro organism" or as many LUCA organisms that were able to undergo free exchange.

    ~ in general ~

    I don't understand how people can put so much trust into science and at the same time be so hypocritical with respect to evolution. Everyone here relies on science and its accomplishments, whether it is electricity, antibiotic drugs, or its breakthroughs in sanitation. The same methods of science, mathematics, and critical analysis that have been used to evidence evolution are the same used to to develop all the things we now take for granted. It is one thing to believe in God for personal reasons, but it is another to spread lies about how evolution is false. As of today, the theory may not be 100% perfect, but that's part of science. Each day more and more data is collected. Every day we learn something new we can use it to broaden, modify, and most importantly gain a better understanding of life and how it works. Over the past two decades we have sequenced thousands of genomes, with thousands more still waiting. Whether you like it or not, the already enormous amount of evidence is sure to grow.
    METAL HEAD FOR LIFE!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzup? View Post
    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

    You do realize that this could go for anything? Who created this ``God'', etc. Saying that he always was there is the same (if not worse) than saying that some other force just ``was there''.
    Thanks for the read.

    I do realize what you're saying. No one can definitively explain HOW anything got here, be it "God", or matter for that matter(no pun intended).
    I don't think it matters why were here or how we got here. We're here.
    Honestly to me though, it seems likely that there's something smarter then us out there. So I guess you could say I lean more towards ID then other theories...

    Also, just to throw it out there. If evolution is true someone must have destroyed every fossil that was a link(half fish half frog, or w/e u get my point). My opinion again. And yes, i've seen plenty pictures of what people claim to be that "link" and honestly i think they're full of crap

    Quote Originally Posted by i luffs yeww View Post
    luffs, funny cartoon. But I really hope you don't think that proves anything.
    That's just like me saying this about the big bang theory:
    If I told you i dropped a box with glue, pieces of wood, and red stickers and when i open the box a perfectly fitted pine wood derby car was in there.
    Anyone in there right mind would say bull shit.
    Some odd billion years ago two particle collided and this extremely intricate thing we call the universe was created.
    Many people would say you're not in your right mind if you don't believe this.

    Kinda pathetic "proof". sure, it's funny. but proves nothing.

    That's also like me proving creationism by saying:
    Because the universe is constantly moving apart the earth could not be billions of years old because it would have gotten burnt instantly by the sun. Also the sun is constantly getting smaller. Billions of years ago it would have be so huge even if the earth wasn't closer it would have been burned.
    You can't tell me what happened a billion, two billion, 10 billion, or 5 thousand years ago. I can't tell you either.
    Last edited by footballjds; 12-02-2011 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    You can't tell me what happened a billion, two billion, 10 billion, or 5 thousand years ago. I can't tell you either.
    +1.
    But we do know what happened @ 5 thousand years ago because man started writing history around that time.
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    +1.
    But we do know what happened @ 5 thousand years ago because man started writing history around that time.
    maybe i should have said 5,001 years ago... :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    Thanks for the read.

    I do realize what you're saying. No one can definitively explain HOW anything got here, be it "God", or matter for that matter(no pun intended).
    I don't think it matters why were here or how we got here. We're here.
    Honestly to me though, it seems likely that there's something smarter then us out there. So I guess you could say I lean more towards ID then other theories...

    Also, just to throw it out there. If evolution is true someone must have destroyed every fossil that was a link(half fish half frog, or w/e u get my point). My opinion again. And yes, i've seen plenty pictures of what people claim to be that "link" and honestly i think they're full of crap



    luffs, funny cartoon. But I really hope you don't think that proves anything.
    That's just like me saying this about the big bang theory:
    If I told you i dropped a box with glue, pieces of wood, and red stickers and when i open the box a perfectly fitted pine wood derby car was in there.
    Anyone in there right mind would say bull shit.
    Some odd billion years ago two particle collided and this extremely intricate thing we call the universe was created.
    Many people would say you're not in your right mind if you don't believe this.

    Kinda pathetic "proof". sure, it's funny. but proves nothing.

    That's also like me proving creationism by saying:
    Because the universe is constantly moving apart the earth could not be billions of years old because it would have gotten burnt instantly by the sun. Also the sun is constantly getting smaller. Billions of years ago it would have be so huge even if the earth wasn't closer it would have been burned.
    You can't tell me what happened a billion, two billion, 10 billion, or 5 thousand years ago. I can't tell you either.
    I'm pretty sure you're not trolling, so you must be stupid.

    Can you explain to me, please, why you need to get vaccinated more than once in your life for the same thing? And why you get the rhinovirus tons of times, if those viruses aren't evolving? And if you think they're not evolving, then what are they doing?

    Also, holy crap. I just read the last part of your nonsense (about creationism), and you should probably look into science a bit more..

    Yet again, "half fish half frog" is not what evolution is. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by i luffs yeww View Post
    I'm pretty sure you're not trolling, so you must be stupid.

    Can you explain to me, please, why you need to get vaccinated more than once in your life for the same thing? And why you get the rhinovirus tons of times, if those viruses aren't evolving? And if you think they're not evolving, then what are they doing?

    Also, holy crap. I just read the last part of your nonsense (about creationism), and you should probably look into science a bit more..

    Yet again, "half fish half frog" is not what evolution is. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
    Guess i'm stupid cause i try not to troll, unless it's on fb, i go HARD CORE TROLLING THERE. Don't get hung up on my EXAGGERATED examples please. Just because a virus evolves doesn't mean everything does. Nor does it mean that my ancestors were monkeys. That was my only point there.

    about the half fish half frog... haha, you got hung up on that...
    The point was, there's no fossilized links that show an animal evolving from 1 to another. Charles darwin himself said that. so chill.

    go ahead and rant/rave/flame. I'll still wake up tomorrow feeling just as good about myself, even though Ian said i'm either stupid or a troll <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    Guess i'm stupid cause i try not to troll, unless it's on fb, i go HARD CORE TROLLING THERE. Don't get hung up on my EXAGGERATED examples please. Just because a virus evolves doesn't mean everything does. Nor does it mean that my ancestors were monkeys. That was my only point there.

    about the half fish half frog... haha, you got hung up on that...
    The point was, there's no fossilized links that show an animal evolving from 1 to another. Charles darwin himself said that. so chill.

    go ahead and rant/rave/flame. I'll still wake up tomorrow feeling just as good about myself, even though Ian said i'm either stupid or a troll <3
    Can you show me where Charles Darwin said that there's no proof of evolution? Because I'd like to see that.

    Wouldn't say I'm really ranting. Chillin' and vaping, yo. <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by i luffs yeww View Post
    Can you show me where Charles Darwin said that there's no proof of evolution? Because I'd like to see that.

    Wouldn't say I'm really ranting. Chillin' and vaping, yo. <3
    If i told you that charles darwin said there was no proof of evolution i'd feel compelled to prove it. However i did not say that. I was talking about missing links.

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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    If i told you that charles darwin said there was no proof of evolution i'd feel compelled to prove it. However i did not say that. I was talking about missing links.
    Sorry, misread (new OS, got shit to install, got ssbm to play, and I'm high :3 just sayin', no hard feelings, hopefully).

    Anyway, the missing links between species are often either not missing links (we have a pretty solid understanding and lineage of what happened between apes and modern humans), or they're just missing because of very explainable reasons, such as species simply not being in a place where they could become fossilized. Their remains could also be destroyed by natural disasters, or even humans ruining them without knowing (digging, clear cutting forests, etc.), which means that for some things there just can't be a record.

    For the records we have, it's really quite amazing, in my opinion. We can look at certain times in the past and know what species of hominid was living and what their bone structure and even their diet was.

    But that's only if you side with science, of course.

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    Animals don't evolve from one thing into another - they share a common ancestor and that ancestor gave rise to two offspring, one of which evolved into animal A and one into animal B. There was no half-frog, half-fish, but a frog and a fish do have an ancestor in common.

    It's also the case that missing-link fossils aren't essential to the theory of evolution or natural selection or anything like that. They are consistently pieces of evidence that back up evolution by showing a gradual transition. Fossils are very nice, neat things because they're from the past - they show common ancestors. However, with the ability to analyse DNA and a very strong theoretical base, it is not essential and only beneficial so long as the dating of the fossils agrees with what evolution predicts: that is, a rabbit should not appear before what we believe its ancestor to be - if it does, we either got the wrong ancestor or we have one bit of evidence that conflicts with the mounds of existing evidence. The important part to notice is the mounds of existing evidence - a single piece won't invalidate the rest of it, but a large amount of conflicting evidence would start raising issues.

    Now, what theoretical stuff am I suggesting? Game theory, or optimising how to "play" given a set of rules and situations, can adequately explain bizarre behaviour in animals that otherwise make no or little sense and can be used to show that animal behaviour is optimal given their constraints, so long as their environment is fairly constant.

    Another area of interest is looking at how many flaws there are in nature and how they can be explained by assuming that that the evolutionary cost of correcting the flaw is too great (that is, the number of mutations that would have to coincide to fix the flaw is so high that the chance is virtually non-existent and, if it did occur, could even make the offspring responsible infertile.) One such example is the human eye's blind spot - I find it hard that an omniscient creator would be unable to give us correctly functioning eyes when other animals do not have them. Oh and before anyone decides to quote the eye as an unexplainably complex feature, there are a variety of different eyes in nature that are of differing complexity and give insight into how our own eyes could have evolved to their modern complexity by going through dozens/hundreds/thousands/millions of discrete steps.

    Just to satisfy my own dissatisfaction, despite Tara quoting Darwin stating that evolution is disproved, I'm afraid to say Darwin did not. By removing the very important idea of "complexity through discrete steps" from the quote, it is very much changing the intended meaning of the quote.

    As a final parting request, I would like someone to explain how evolution cannot arise, given the modern understanding of sexual reproduction - the shuffling of genes - and the modern understanding of how genes affect what they build - the phenotype or effect that a gene exerts on the world - and that the animals best suited to their environments - the faster or stronger etc - are more likely to survive than those that do not. How is it that genes that program animals that are better at surviving are not passed on to the next generation in greater amounts than genes that do not; how is it that a gene pool that favours genes that aid survival changes as mutations that aid survival enter and genes that diminish survival are lost; how is it that cows can be selectively bred to drastically change their appearance by an intelligent being yet nature cannot selectively breed animals to make them better at surviving.
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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    it seems likely that there's something smarter then us out there.
    Ill assume you are talking about extra terrestrials and not a deity.

    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    The point was, there's no fossilized links that show an animal evolving from 1 to another. Charles darwin himself said that. so chill.
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ink-found.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosbag View Post
    Ill assume you are talking about extra terrestrials and not a deity.

    I didnt specify on purpose because some wouldnt differeniate the two.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ink-found.html
    Lol, seen that already...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    It seems like your claims against creationism are heavily against Christianity. See, if you even bothered to study Islam you would find countless proof that proves creationism. I think atheists are pretty good @ challenging Christianity, yes.
    No i wouldn't. Nobody can even manage to find evidence for creationism, let alone proof. Islam is just as wrong as Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    It seems like your claims against creationism are heavily against Christianity. See, if you even bothered to study Islam you would find countless proof that proves creationism. I think atheists are pretty good @ challenging Christianity, yes.
    You seem to have this incredibly flawed idea that atheists challenge Christianity more than Islam. We don't. Islam is just as wrong, ridiculous, and absurd as Christianity is. We just focus on Christianity because where most atheists come from the major religion tends to be Christianity. Where i come the overwhelming majority of people are Christian, as a result i focus on Christianity.

    IF there is a reason why people like to focus on Christianity more than Islam, it's because most Muslims tend to be ridiculously hypersensitive about anybody challenging their beliefs and throw a huge pussyfit whenever it happens. Like already mentioned "Draw Muhammad day" proves that Muslims cannot peacefully tolerate ridicule of their religion like everybody else can, and will go out into the streets, burn things down, and threaten people's lives.
    Last edited by matviy; 12-02-2011 at 11:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    Guess i'm stupid cause i try not to troll, unless it's on fb, i go HARD CORE TROLLING THERE. Don't get hung up on my EXAGGERATED examples please. Just because a virus evolves doesn't mean everything does. Nor does it mean that my ancestors were monkeys. That was my only point there.
    LOL. This is like saying "don't point out my examples that clearly demonstrate my INCREDIBLY poor understanding of evolution". We're going to get hung up on your examples because they prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. You of course would like to dismiss it as "exaggerations".

    Everything evolves for the exact same reason that viruses and bacteria evolve. Do you know where cats and dogs came from? Tabby cats and golden retrievers don't exist in the wild.

    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    The point was, there's no fossilized links that show an animal evolving from 1 to another. Charles darwin himself said that. so chill.
    What Darwin said over 100 years ago isn't very (if at all) relevant today. Although he presented the general idea behind macro evolution, he contributed a very small percentage of all the information we have today.

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    What next, teaching that the Sun goes around the Earth?
    teaching that storks deliver babies?
    teaching astrology, that the motions of the planets affect our day-to-day lives?
    teaching that the Earth is flat?
    teaching that 'bad air' is the cause of all disease?
    teaching that the holocaust never happened?
    teaching that there's only 4 elements? earth, air, fire, water.
    teaching that humans never went to the moon?

    Sure, teach the controversy with all of those, let the students decide for themselves.

    Our modern economies depend on scientifically trained students. We will all become poorer if our lessons are invaded by special religious interests teaching that personal faith is equal to publicly verifiable evidence.
    Last edited by Yakman; 12-03-2011 at 01:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    Lol, seen that already...
    But you just ignore it I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    What next, teaching that the Sun goes around the Earth?
    teaching that storks deliver babies?
    teaching astrology, that the motions of the planets affect our day-to-day lives?
    teaching that the Earth is flat?
    teaching that 'bad air' is the cause of all disease?
    teaching that the holocaust never happened?
    teaching that there's only 4 elements? earth, air, fire, water.
    teaching that humans never went to the moon?

    Sure, teach the controversy with all of those, let the students decide for themselves.

    Our modern economies depend on scientifically trained students. We will all become poorer if our lessons are invaded by special religious interests teaching that personal faith is equal to publicly verifiable evidence.
    All this has been done already it's called Wikipedia.....

    As for the Question of Evolution or Creationism ....

    Neither can be fully proved or disproved.

    Bang -> dust gas etc -> us
    God -> The Couple -> us

    Might as well say... the Easter Bunny laid those funny eggs(Cadberry not excluded) then some fat guy in a red suit gave us to Marvin the Martian for delivery, cause guys in red suits only work 1 day a year and get PAID big time.

    meh bah huh ... what 's in your theory?
    Last edited by Lima Bean; 12-03-2011 at 03:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matviy View Post
    No i wouldn't. Nobody can even manage to find evidence for creationism, let alone proof. Islam is just as wrong as Christianity.



    You seem to have this incredibly flawed idea that atheists challenge Christianity more than Islam. We don't. Islam is just as wrong, ridiculous, and absurd as Christianity is. We just focus on Christianity because where most atheists come from the major religion tends to be Christianity. Where i come the overwhelming majority of people are Christian, as a result i focus on Christianity.

    IF there is a reason why people like to focus on Christianity more than Islam, it's because most Muslims tend to be ridiculously hypersensitive about anybody challenging their beliefs and throw a huge pussyfit whenever it happens. Like already mentioned "Draw Muhammad day" proves that Muslims cannot peacefully tolerate ridicule of their religion like everybody else can, and will go out into the streets, burn things down, and threaten people's lives.
    See, you go ahead and make your media biased claims against Islam. Don't blame you. Uneducated.

    So you expect us Muslims, to not say anything when our holy prophet gets his picture drawn? It's extremely sensitive and sinful in Islam to draw his picture, so you expect us to just let it happen? Same goes for Christians. Do you expect them to stand there and do nothing if someone tries to burn down their Bible?

    Do YOU know anything about Islam? If so, go ahead, challenge me and amuse me.

    Oh and by verifying that atheists leave Christianity more, just proves how strong and real Islam is.
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    So you expect us Muslims, to not say anything when our holy prophet gets his picture drawn? It's extremely sensitive and sinful in Islam to draw his picture, so you expect us to just let it happen? Same goes for Christians. Do you expect them to stand there and do nothing if someone tries to burn down their Bible?
    So you are saying the death threats over the comic strip depicting the prophet are justified?
    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Oh and by verifying that atheists leave Christianity more, just proves how strong and real Islam is.
    Only it doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosbag View Post
    So you are saying the death threats over the comic strip depicting the prophet are justified?


    Only it doesn't.
    No. But obviously there are extremists all over this world, its not only Muslims. What, did you think the author was unaware of what he was doing and that he won't enrage 1.5billion people? People do stuff for attention nowadays.
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    No. But obviously there are extremists all over this world, its not only Muslims. What, did you think the author was unaware of what he was doing and that he won't enrage 1.5billion people? People do stuff for attention nowadays.
    He was aware of what he was doing and its within his rights to offend 1.5 billion people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosbag View Post
    He was aware of what he was doing and its within his rights to offend 1.5 billion people.
    Okay if you are aware of what your doing, and you have the right to offend 1.5billion people that contain a percentage of extremists then don't complain about receiving death threats. Because obviously you know what your doing and you are aware of the consequences.
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Just want to add that the viruses don't evolve. When you get the cold once, then get it again. It was two completely different viruses. Same goes with the flu, its not the same virus, just very similar.

    OT:
    Creationism shouldn't be taught in schools, simply because it isn't factual.

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