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Thread: Creationism in School?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    You don't deny any history right?
    Only fictional history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matviy View Post
    Only fictional history.
    Okay.

    There is no question among scientists that they all agree that our Universe emerged from smoke.

    1400 years ago the prophet Mohammad received the Quran. In the Quran, in chapter 41, verses 10-11 god says:

    "He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly.""

    But the weird thing is... only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke. So can you tell me how Mohammad somehow knew this 1400 years ago, unless God revealed it to him?

    Mohammad was a proven illiterate man.
    Last edited by kingarabian; 12-05-2011 at 11:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Okay.

    There is no question among scientists that they all agree that our Universe emerged from smoke.
    The universe did not emerge from smoke, and no scientist anywhere has ever claimed that the universe emerged from smoke. You will not find one instance of anybody who studies any kind of science making that claim. Ever. It doesn't make sense.

    There was no smoke either before or immediately after the event that created the universe. All evidence suggest that the first basic element that existed was hydrogen, and no smoke was possible until after this hydrogen already fused into heavier particles. This was all a good deal of time after the universe "emerged".

    So no, even in the broadest definition of "smoke", that statement is not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    1400 years ago the prophet Mohammad received the Quran. In the Quran, in chapter 41, verses 10-11 god says:

    "He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly.""
    Cool. 1400 years ago people were aware of smoke.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    But the weird thing is... only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke. So can you tell me how Mohammad somehow knew this 1400 years ago, unless God revealed it to him?
    Except that's not what scientists discovered at all. You have a very poor understanding of what "smoke", "gas", or even "universe" is. The universe didn't "emerge" from any smoke or hot gas, that doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense if you know the definitions of those words. Smoke isn't even a form of "hot gas". You can have cold smoke as well as smoke composed of very small solid particles, not gasses.

    Smoke and hot gas are composed of particles. Particles are parts of the universe. The universe can't come from "hot gas" or "smoke" because if those things existed the universe would already exist by the very definition of "universe". Just Google the terms listed above and you'll understand why everything you just said makes absolutely no sense.

    I STRONGLY suggest you take at least some kind of extremely basic scientific course to understand the terms you are talking about. And if this is the best argument for a young earth you have then i am very very deeply sorry for you because i was expecting something good but this turned out to be the worst thing I've ever heard.

  4. #154
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    Oh please. Please stop contradicting your self.

    The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition).

    - The First Three Minutes, a Modern View of the Origin of the Universe, Weinberg, pp. 94-105.
    It wasn’t until centuries later when sophisticated theories like the Big Bang Theory emerged that we discovered that the universe was made up of hot gaseous smoke.
    So unless you are greater than the science of cosmology prove them wrong.

    Smoke is not gas?
    Smoke is a collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases. It's on Wikipedia.

    Cool. 1400 years ago people were aware of smoke.
    I know right? They somehow knew it was part of our universes origin as well.

    Oh that's not all. I have many many more.

    It wasn't till the 17th century when people finnally understood that the earth is round and NOT flat.

    However 1400 years ago the prophet Mohammad received the Quran. In the Quran, in chapter 39, verse 5 god says:

    "He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night." The Arabic word which is translated as "to wrap" in the above verse is "takwir." "takwir" in Arabic also means to make an object ROUND. Specifically in this verse god is saying the Earth was created round.

    So you want to tell me how Mohammad knew the earth was round, when at the same time till centuries later the belief was thought that the world was a flat plane and all scientific calculations and explanations were based on this belief?
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Oh okay. So all the ads I saw in Seattle and in New York that are pro atheism, coincidently happened to be there for decoration..
    That is a small percentage of atheists. I could very well say that the goal for every Muslim is to become a suicide bomber and kill the infidel right?

    I mean all those news channels cant just be there for no reason.


    You are talking along those lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosbag View Post
    That is a small percentage of atheists. I could very well say that the goal for every Muslim is to become a suicide bomber and kill the infidel right?

    I mean all those news channels cant just be there for no reason.


    You are talking along those lines.
    Sure. You are entitled to say what you please.
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Oh please. Please stop contradicting your self.
    Nowhere have i contradicted myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition).
    Wrong. In no scientific book anywhere does it "clearly indicate" that "the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’", on top of that your definition of "smoke" is wrong and again demonstrates your complete lack of understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Smoke is not gas?
    Smoke is a collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases. It's on Wikipedia.
    Smoke is not a gas. There is no element called "smoke". It's the other way around. In certain conditions, gas can be smoke. More on that below.

    You'd like clouds of hydrogen to be considered as "smoke" because it fits your argument, but it's not smoke. Had you actually read the full definition of "smoke" from wikipedia you would know this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Smoke is a collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases[1] emitted when a material undergoes combustion or pyrolysis, together with the quantity of air that is entrained or otherwise mixed into the mass.
    The definition you poorly attempted to cite proves you wrong, and had you read it you would have made less of a fool of yourself and saved yourself some embarrassment. Not only is a mixture of air required to create smoke, but the "collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases" have to be a product of either combustion or pyrolysis, neither of which is possible in a state of pure hydrogen.

    And if that isn't proof enough, the paper Wikipedia cited for it's definition states in the very first paragraph:

    The term “smoke” is defined in this chapter as the smoke aerosol or condensed phase component of the products of combustion. This differs from the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) definition of smoke, which includes the evolved gases as well.
    And then the ASTM definition of smoke
    ASTM terminology relating to fire Standards (E 176) defines "smoke" as the "airborne solid and liquid particles and gasses evolved when a material undergoes pyrolysis or combustion"
    Sorry but again everything points against you. Good job trying to make up evidence to support your position tho. That's the only kind of evidence you'll have.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian
    - The First Three Minutes, a Modern View of the Origin of the Universe, Weinberg, pp. 94-105.
    It wasn’t until centuries later when sophisticated theories like the Big Bang Theory emerged that we discovered that the universe was made up of hot gaseous smoke.
    So unless you are greater than the science of cosmology prove them wrong.
    This is completely true, except you took it a few million (if not billion) years out of context. At some point the universe was partly smoke, and it still partly is. Except that before that it took MANY years for stars to form and create oxygen that allowed for smoke to even exist in the first place.

    See, you (well not you, the people who you're copy/pasting these arguments from) are trying to use this poorly worded sentence as some sort of evidence to back up your religious claims. All it says that at some point the universe had smoke in it, it doesn't say that the universe started this way like you're trying to twist it into saying. Universe is still made up of smoke. It's also made up of water, rocks, and other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian
    I know right? They somehow knew it was part of our universes origin as well.
    Like already said, smoke has nothing to do with the "origin" of the universe. And you would understand why that doesn't make sense if you understood what those terms meant.

    A much more likely scenario, they used smoke because of it's resemblance to the clouds in the sky as well as it's symbolic and "mystic" properties. That's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian
    It wasn't till the 17th century when people finnally understood that the earth is round and NOT flat.

    However 1400 years ago the prophet Mohammad received the Quran. In the Quran, in chapter 39, verse 5 god says:

    "He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night." The Arabic word which is translated as "to wrap" in the above verse is "takwir." "takwir" in Arabic also means to make an object ROUND. Specifically in this verse god is saying the Earth was created round.

    So you want to tell me how Mohammad knew the earth was round, when at the same time till centuries later the belief was thought that the world was a flat plane and all scientific calculations and explanations were based on this belief?
    Except that's not what hes saying at all, and you'll have to try much harder than that to twist words into suiting your purposes.

    "He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night."
    Translated: "To make night round up in the day, and day round up in the night"

    Doesn't in anyway imply that he had even the slightest clue that the earth was round and not flat. He could have been talking about the round shape of the sun or the moon, or the "round" repeating day-night cycle. Hell, i quote random verses and interpret them to suit my needs too:

    Sura Al-Kahf 18:47 And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

    Sura Taha 20:53 Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation.

    Sura Az-Zukhruf 43:10 Who has made for you the earth like a bed, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way.

    Sura An-Naba 78:6 Have We not made the earth as a bed,
    Last i checked beds and plains were flat. Each one of these verses is much stronger evidence suggesting that the Quran thought that the earth was flat, than your single verse where you tried hard to twist some translated words into meaning something they weren't intended to mean.

    Try again tho.

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    Let's say for instance the universe did indeed come from "smoke"...

    Where did the smoke come from?

    Go!

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    Sura Al-Kahf 18:47 And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

    Sura Taha 20:53 Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation.

    Sura Az-Zukhruf 43:10 Who has made for you the earth like a bed, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way.

    Sura An-Naba 78:6 Have We not made the earth as a bed,
    Sura Al-Kahf 18:47: Allah is talking about the day of judgement when he will turn the world flat. He is not saying the Earth is flat.

    Sura Taha 20:53: Earth is like a bed. We live on Earth, we need Earth to survive. Allah is not saying the Earth is flat. Hence why he said LIKE. Clearly a bed is a place of nurture, and the comparison to mother Earth.

    Sura Az-Zukhruf 43:10 ^ see above

    Sura An-Naba 78:6 ^ see above


    Wrong. In no scientific book anywhere does it "clearly indicate" that "the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’", on top of that your definition of "smoke" is wrong and again demonstrates your complete lack of understanding.
    Oh. Really? I guess you are correct and this book, written by legit scientists is wrong.

    - The First Three Minutes, a Modern View of the Origin of the Universe, Weinberg, pp. 94-105.

    Except that's not what hes saying at all, and you'll have to try much harder than that to twist words into suiting your purposes.

    "He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night."
    Translated: "To make night round up in the day, and day round up in the night"

    Doesn't in anyway imply that he had even the slightest clue that the earth was round and not flat. He could have been talking about the round shape of the sun or the moon, or the "round" repeating day-night cycle. Hell, i quote random verses and interpret them to suit my needs too:
    Okay lets look at another verse:

    And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak (The Noble Quran, Chpater 21: verse: 33)
    A falaka like that of a spinning wheel. The word falak in Arabic means that which is a round/sphere. It also means orbit. So again Mohammad, 1400 years ago knew the Earth was round AND he knew that Earth orbited.



    http://translate.google.com/#auto|ar|%D9%81%D9%84%D9%83
    Last edited by kingarabian; 12-07-2011 at 12:39 PM.
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    The paradigm of a spherical Earth was developed in Greek astronomy, beginning with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most Pre-Socratics retained the flat Earth model. Aristotle accepted the spherical shape of the Earth on empirical grounds around 330 BC, and knowledge of the spherical Earth gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world from then on.

    I cite wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth#cite_note-1
    which sites this claim with 4 sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdug View Post
    The paradigm of a spherical Earth was developed in Greek astronomy, beginning with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most Pre-Socratics retained the flat Earth model. Aristotle accepted the spherical shape of the Earth on empirical grounds around 330 BC, and knowledge of the spherical Earth gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world from then on.

    I cite wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth#cite_note-1
    which sites this claim with 4 sources.
    Ah okay. Mohammad must have talked with them. Did they also tell him about how the Earth orbited around the Sun?
    Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Ah okay. Mohammad must have talked with them. Did they also tell him about how the Earth orbited around the Sun?
    Your claim seems a little irrational because of the time frames.

    However, the model of the Earth orbiting the Sun was also extremely old. There were groups of people that had the solar system model forbidden, but it was there.

    Someone told someone told someone etc.

    I'm not saying Islam is the *wrong* religion. I am just saying Mohammad cannot be given credit for innate knowledge of the workings of the solar system, especially given the ambiguities of the passages stated.

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    My opinions on this contradict each other so bear with me because honestly I haven't fully developed my personal view on this aside from being mostly atheist (if a "mostly" kinda thing makes sense). Also, I am not very familiar with religious texts.

    King, you've made me think harder than I have outside of class in some time as well as question myself.

    1. As said way earlier on, how was the big bang started? Some force must have acted upon it.

    2. He knew the earth was spherical? We "knew" it was flat. Someone had to be right. I don't know about the orbit bit though.

    3. Before I get elevated feelings over this one, it is somewhat unrelated but it's my opinion on religion. I personally feel that religion is not really well concrete if you will. Sure almost everything lines up and what not as well as gives answers but well gives answers (I know I repeated myself). Humans are undeniably fearful and logical people. Being logical we seek answers for just about EVERYTHING. Without religion and before evolution theories, what would people have to look to and at for answers? People are religious (this is not a everyone kind of statement, even though it sounds like it) because people are scared and want to know what what happened and how to fix it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Sura Al-Kahf 18:47: Allah is talking about the day of judgement when he will turn the world flat. He is not saying the world is flat.
    Yes he is. He's saying that on judgement day when he makes the mountains disappear we'll all see that the world is flat. Doesn't say anywhere that he's making the earth flat. Sorry but your own book proves you wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Sura Taha 20:53: Earth is like a bed. We live on Earth, we need Earth to survive. Allah is not saying the Earth is flat. Hence why he said LIKE. Clearly a bed is a place of nurture, and the comparison to mother Earth.
    Yes he is. He is comparing the flat characteristics of earth to the flat characteristics of a bed.


    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Sura Az-Zukhruf 43:10 ^ see above

    Sura An-Naba 78:6 ^ see above
    Yup, see above. Apparently i understand your own book better than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Oh. Really? I guess you are correct and this book, written by legit scientists is wrong.

    - The First Three Minutes, a Modern View of the Origin of the Universe, Weinberg, pp. 94-105.
    One scientist (or even a handful of scientists) do not represent all scientific knowledge gathered by human beings. So even if they were wrong, it wouldn't mean much. Scientists are wrong very often. What matters is that they work to correct their mistakes, and push knowledge further.

    But it doesn't matter anyway because the book isn't wrong. Your reading comprehension just fails. Like i already said, at no part does it say that the universe was created "from smoke".


    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Okay lets look at another verse:

    And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak (The Noble Quran, Chpater 21: verse: 33)
    A falaka like that of a spinning wheel.

    The word falak in Arabic means that which is a round/sphere. It also means orbit. So again Mohammad, 1400 years ago knew the Earth was round AND he knew that Earth orbited.
    Cool. So he thought that the sun and the moon moved in orbit around the earth. Something that's easily observable by everyone, and is also completely wrong. You seem very eager to keep diving into things that constantly further discredit Islam, thanks.

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Geocentric_Qur%27an

    Anyway, most people who believed that the earth was flat believed that it was a flat round disc, wheel, plate, or whatever. So any references to the earth being "round" clearly are talking about that.

    This one was too easy. Keep em coming.

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    We humans have toenails, appendixes, tail bones, wisdom teeth or ear muscles which most people cant control, and many other organs which are useless at best and positively harmful at worst.
    A perfect designer suggests perfect designs. Yet life on our planet is not perfect, far from it. How do creationists explain these? So-called vestigial organs.

    When you feel cold you may get goosebumps, which is the hair standing up on your skin. In our evolutionary history when we had thick fur, this would help keep in heat, yet we humans have thin, useless hair, so goosebumps today are pointless.

    The evidence for evolution is written into our bodies. It completely blows away creationism.
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    http://villavu.com/forum/showpost.ph...&postcount=154

    @kingarabian - I see where you are coming from. There have been numerous documents discovered showing ancient people understanding many of the concepts 'modern science' has only discovered recently. I find it hard to believe 'God' showed them. It just doesnt make sense. In all honesty, have you read into the Ancient Alien theory. It explains some of the points you've made in your post I linked to.

    Disclaimer: I haven't read all through this thread, as well as most of the posts on this page.
    Quote Originally Posted by irc
    [00:55:29] < Guest3097> I lol at how BenLand100 has become noidea
    [01:07:40] <@BenLand100> i'm not noidea i'm
    [01:07:44] -!- BenLand100 is now known as BenLand42-
    [01:07:46] <@BenLand42-> shit
    [01:07:49] -!- BenLand42- is now known as BenLand420
    [01:07:50] <@BenLand420> YEA

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Okay.

    There is no question among scientists that they all agree that our Universe emerged from smoke.

    1400 years ago the prophet Mohammad received the Quran. In the Quran, in chapter 41, verses 10-11 god says:

    "He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly.""

    But the weird thing is... only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke. So can you tell me how Mohammad somehow knew this 1400 years ago, unless God revealed it to him?

    Mohammad was a proven illiterate man.
    I'm going back to this post, because I think it's where the Quran was basically brought in as support for the possibility of intelligent design due to some other, irrelevant part being "true". That is, if a higher power created the world, it does not follow that the higher power created the creatures that now populate it. This is very much the case in science: there are theories for how planets are formed and for how complex organisms can result from humble beginnings if you are willing to accept the proof by induction of sorts that fills in the gaps we have no physical evidence for.

    So, now I have highlighted that the 'fact' of the formation of the planet according to the Quran implies the 'fact' that the creatures of the world are as the Quran describes, I wish to highlight that the inverse must also be true. That is, anything that the Quran claims is 'fact' that is actually wrong must count against the idea of intelligent design of the sort the Quran describes (that man was made in Allah's image or whatever the exact nature of it is.)

    To that extent, I'd like to point out google is a wonderful resource. There are sites such as this one and this one. The latter one is a much softer look at inconsistencies, offering reasons why they do not mean the Quran is wrong and, likewise, I am not saying that the errors in the Quran mean that the Quran is wrong. Rather, I am saying that if you are saying that something is correct because it is in the Quran and because other things that are in the Quran are correct, then you are making a logical mistake.
    By reading this signature you agree that mixster is superior to you in each and every way except the bad ways but including the really bad ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    We humans have toenails, appendixes, tail bones, wisdom teeth or ear muscles which most people cant control, and many other organs which are useless at best and positively harmful at worst.
    A perfect designer suggests perfect designs. Yet life on our planet is not perfect, far from it. How do creationists explain these? So-called vestigial organs.

    When you feel cold you may get goosebumps, which is the hair standing up on your skin. In our evolutionary history when we had thick fur, this would help keep in heat, yet we humans have thin, useless hair, so goosebumps today are pointless.

    The evidence for evolution is written into our bodies. It completely blows away creationism.
    So I take it that when you sit down to write a script, you don't use the SRL include. You just start with a blank page and start writing, until it's finished. Every new creation is unique from all others, and they share no commonalities. You don't re-use code that has been written before.

    That's certainly POSSIBLE for someone to do, but would you call that approach INTELLIGENT? Or would it be more intelligent to create code that works and re-use that in many different scripts?


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    Yes he is. He's saying that on judgement day when he makes the mountains disappear we'll all see that the world is flat. Doesn't say anywhere that he's making the earth flat. Sorry but your own book proves you wrong.
    Okay what is world and Earth to you? They are the same. I meant that the world will be flat. E.g no mountains/buildings Etc.


    Yes he is. He is comparing the flat characteristics of earth to the flat characteristics of a bed.[/QUOTE]
    Uh no you are wrong. All the translations of the Quran in Arabic AND English do not have Allah comparing the flat characteristics of earth to the flat characteristics of a bed. I should know. I speak read write and undestand Arabic. I've studied the Quran all my life. I know what each verse means and the full translations of each verse that are narrated by all the Muslim scholars.



    Yup, see above. Apparently i understand your own book better than you do.
    You assume. To understand the Quran you need to know to be able to read and Arabic. You lack oth.




    Cool. So he thought that the sun and the moon moved in orbit around the earth. Something that's easily observable by everyone, and is also completely wrong. You seem very eager to keep diving into things that constantly further discredit Islam, thanks.
    ^See above. In no way does that verse say the moon and sun orbited around the Earth. Keep jumping to conclusions its really hysterical.


    Anyway, most people who believed that the earth was flat believed that it was a flat round disc, wheel, plate, or whatever. So any references to the earth being "round" clearly are talking about that.

    This one was too easy. Keep em coming.[/QUOTE]
    Alright let's keep the ball rolling.
    We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs. (Qur'an, 21:32)
    This above verse revealed to Mohammad 1400 years ago factually states that our sky (Atmosphere) acts as a protection and preserves us from danger.

    The atmosphere surrounding our Earth serves crucial functions for the continuity of life. While destroying many meteors-big and small-as they approach the Earth, it prevents them from falling to Earth and harming living things.
    In addition, the atmosphere filters the light rays coming from space that are harmful to living creatures.

    So care to explain to me HOW Mohammad knew that the sky (atmosphere) protects us from danger (e.g meteorites, ultra violet rays etc). 1400 years ago? How was he informed?
    Quote Originally Posted by mixster View Post
    To that extent, I'd like to point out google is a wonderful resource. There are sites such as this one and this one. The latter one is a much softer look at inconsistencies, offering reasons why they do not mean the Quran is wrong and, likewise, I am not saying that the errors in the Quran mean that the Quran is wrong. Rather, I am saying that if you are saying that something is correct because it is in the Quran and because other things that are in the Quran are correct, then you are making a logical mistake.
    I did stumble upon that latter site.

    The reason why I am bringing up the Quran in this debate, is because it clearly does show facts and scientific clues. The significance to this, is that Mohammad knew this 1400 years ago. Before all the scientific discoveries.
    Yes I am saying whatever the Quran states scientifically it is correct. When the Quran says the Earth is round, logically that makes sense to me. When the Quran says the earth orbits, logically it makes sense to me.

    -Allah Almighty in one Word said that the Universe is expanding and in another term said it will shrink back again. Science confirmed that today through the big bang and the cosmic crunch theories.

    -Allah Almighty in two Words mentioned the layers of waves and darkness inside the vast oceans. Science today, again, confirmed that.

    -Allah Almighty in one Word said that He made the earth as an egg. We all know today that earth is spherical and science did confirm that the earth is indeed egg-shaped.

    -Allah Almighty in few terms in several Noble Verses said that mountains prevent the earth from shaking. Science today did indeed confirm that mountains stabilize the earth and prevent it from constantly shaking while it is rotating around its own axle.

    -Allah Almighty in one term talked about the earth's 7 properties. Science today confirmed that the earth has 7 inner layers and 7 atmospheric layers.

    -Allah Almighty in one term talked about the region inside the human-brain that controls the movements. Science today confirmed that.

    Source
    There is A LOT more
    Again, the SIGNIFICANT part of all this, is that this was all revealed 1400 years ago. If you guys prefer, i'll post all the verses and break them down one by one. In Arabic and English.
    Last edited by kingarabian; 12-07-2011 at 11:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingarabian View Post
    Okay what is world and Earth to you? They are the same. I meant that the world will be flat. E.g no mountains/buildings Etc.
    The Quaran is saying that the world is already flat. Not that it will be flattened out.

    Uh no you are wrong. All the translations of the Quran in Arabic AND English do not have Allah comparing the flat characteristics of earth to the flat characteristics of a bed. I should know. I speak read write and undestand Arabic. I've studied the Quran all my life. I know what each verse means and the full translations of each verse that are narrated by all the Muslim scholars.
    Yes they do. I proved it with those quotes right there.

    Also, i feel sorry that you claim to be able to read and write and understand Arabic, yet you still aren't able to understand your own book correctly. Maybe you should study it more.

    You assume. To understand the Quran you need to know to be able to read and Arabic. You lack oth.
    No you don't? There are millions of muslims all over the world who cannot read Arabic, yet they believe in Islam and read the Quaran. You just denounced millions of your own followers and stated that they don't understand their own holy book. Not only that, but you just discredited all translated versions of the quran because what they actually say doesn't agree with what you want them to say.

    ^See above. In no way does that verse say the moon and sun orbited around the Earth. Keep jumping to conclusions its really hysterical.
    That's exactly what it says.

    Alright let's keep the ball rolling.
    We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs. (Qur'an, 21:32)
    This above verse revealed to Mohammad 1400 years ago factually states that our sky (Atmosphere) acts as a protection and preserves us from danger.

    The atmosphere surrounding our Earth serves crucial functions for the continuity of life. While destroying many meteors-big and small-as they approach the Earth, it prevents them from falling to Earth and harming living things.
    In addition, the atmosphere filters the light rays coming from space that are harmful to living creatures.

    So care to explain to me HOW Mohammad knew that the sky (atmosphere) protects us from danger (e.g meteorites, ultra violet rays etc). 1400 years ago? How was he informed?
    Simple. He wasn't. Generic verses like these can be interpreted to mean virtually anything, especially after they've been translated many times since the original text and each translation was under a new context of scientific knowledge.

    The Quran was clearly talking about all elements in the sky that serve a purpose of helping us in our daily lives. The Sun that gives us life and "protects" us from cold and predators, the moon that lets us see at night, the clouds that drop rain and water our farms, and the stars which are the old gods watching over and protecting us.

    There are many examples of these kinds of verses that supposedly "prove" advanced scientific knowledge in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Yet they all share the common property of being vague and open to a near-infinite amount of interpretations. It would have been incredibly easy for the book to just go into a bit more detail on the subject of this "roof" protecting us. 2-3 more verses on the subject explaining this "roof" in detail would have forever removed all doubt that Islam was the true religion. Yet conveniently enough for Islam (as well as all religions claiming advance scientific knowledge) they're always vague and cut out when it starts to matter.

    The reason why I am bringing up the Quran in this debate, is because it clearly does show facts and scientific clues. The significance to this, is that Mohammad knew this 1400 years ago. Before all the scientific discoveries.
    Yes I am saying whatever the Quran states scientifically it is correct. When the Quran says the Earth is round, logically that makes sense to me. When the Quran says the earth orbits, logically it makes sense to me.
    It clearly doesn't. So far all you've shown is that as soon as the Quran even attempts to go into detail about anything scientific (smoke, shape of the earth, or orbits) it instantly gets it horribly wrong, and all other times it attempts to be as vague as possible to cover nearly any kind of scenario.

    Smoke? False.
    Flat earth? False
    Geocentric model? False
    "Roof"? Incredibly vague.

    If this were baseball you'd have been out a while ago. Luckily for you I'll let you have all the strikes you want.


    -Allah Almighty in one Word said that the Universe is expanding and in another term said it will shrink back again. Science confirmed that today through the big bang and the cosmic crunch theories.
    Nope, post some evidence of this. Also, scientists have no idea if the universe will at some point shrink back again. It's a theory, one that hasn't been doing so well since we found out the universe is expanding faster.

    -Allah Almighty in two Words mentioned the layers of waves and darkness inside the vast oceans. Science today, again, confirmed that.
    Nope, post some evidence of this.

    Also, how is this even impressive? A 5 year old can tell you that water gets darker as it goes down. Layers in waves is also easily observable.

    -Allah Almighty in one Word said that He made the earth as an egg. We all know today that earth is spherical and science did confirm that the earth is indeed egg-shaped.
    Don't even need evidence for this. Because it's wrong. The earth is not egg shaped. It's very far from. The earth is more of a squished ball, whereas an egg is absolutely nothing like that.

    I can post proof to support myself tho: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_the_Earth

    -Allah Almighty in few terms in several Noble Verses said that mountains prevent the earth from shaking. Science today did indeed confirm that mountains stabilize the earth and prevent it from constantly shaking while it is rotating around its own axle.
    Nope, post some evidence of this.
    Also post some evidence of where scientists said that mountains "stabilize the earth and prevent it from constantly shaking while it is rotating around its own axle". Sounds interesting.

    -Allah Almighty in one term talked about the earth's 7 properties. Science today confirmed that the earth has 7 inner layers and 7 atmospheric layers.
    Nope, post some evidence of this.

    Also, the earth doesn't have "atmospheric layers". The atmosphere is a gradient, not a layer. How many "atmospheres" the earth has depends on how detailed you want to be defining this gradient, and some atmospheres are considered to be "part" or "extensions" of other atmospheres. Nowhere does science actually recognize the earth having "7" atmospheres, and depending on how closely you need to look the earth can have anywhere from 5-15 "atmospheres", if not more.

    Same thing for the earths layers. Even similar layers depending on their depth can behave differently, and thus be considered (and usually are) different layers. There is no scientific declaration that there are 7 layers, simply depends on how you want to count them and how specific you want to be.

    -Allah Almighty in one term talked about the region inside the human-brain that controls the movements. Science today confirmed that.
    Nope, post some evidence of this.

    Also, "region" is a very broad term. And there is no single part of the brain responsible for movements. Contraction of muscles is actually controlled by multiple parts of your brain working together.

    Funny how easy it is to disprove parts of the quran without any evidence of anything you claimed to be in the quran of actually being there, never mind the fact that you're probably just interpreting it the way you want to. I can't wait to see how easy it will be once you actually post some verses to support all of this.

    Source
    There is A LOT more
    I hope so because so far you haven't scored a single point, and i would hate for you to come out of this entire ordeal without one. (and we're not even counting negative points you have for how many errors in the quran you've already pointed out).

    Again, the SIGNIFICANT part of all this, is that this was all revealed 1400 years ago. If you guys prefer, i'll post all the verses and break them down one by one. In Arabic and English.
    Please break them down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    We humans have toenails, appendixes, tail bones, wisdom teeth or ear muscles which most people cant control, and many other organs which are useless at best and positively harmful at worst.
    A perfect designer suggests perfect designs. Yet life on our planet is not perfect, far from it. How do creationists explain these? So-called vestigial organs.

    When you feel cold you may get goosebumps, which is the hair standing up on your skin. In our evolutionary history when we had thick fur, this would help keep in heat, yet we humans have thin, useless hair, so goosebumps today are pointless.

    The evidence for evolution is written into our bodies. It completely blows away creationism.
    I would not say goosebumps are pointless. There are many more reasons why humans experience piloerection aside from the cold. Also, piloerection is more than just your hair standing on end.

    If you were suggesting toenails are useless, then try losing a toenail and not having one for a few months, TRUST me when i say that toenails protect your toes from a LOT of serious pain.

    If there was, and by no means am i saying or suggesting that there was, a creator and he was perfect we would have no reason to say that how this entity did things was not "perfect". This entity could create and destroy at will. Any "laws" or "rules" of this universe like gravity, etc. could be invented. If you're agnostic towards a creator you can not possibly place that creator in a box and say how they should have done things. If you're atheist then your opinion on what a creator could/should have done is kinda pointless.

    I wouldn't say the appendix is useless just yet. We didn't discover the use for tonsils till semi recently.(within the past couple of decades)

    Just because we don't understand something yet, we should not deem it "useless at best". With that mindset we'll never make progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tarajunky View Post
    So I take it that when you sit down to write a script, you don't use the SRL include. You just start with a blank page and start writing, until it's finished. Every new creation is unique from all others, and they share no commonalities. You don't re-use code that has been written before.

    That's certainly POSSIBLE for someone to do, but would you call that approach INTELLIGENT? Or would it be more intelligent to create code that works and re-use that in many different scripts?
    Simba scripts are not created by an all-powerful all-knowing designer.
    Life, according to creationism, was created this way. So why do we see such obvious mistakes and compromises?
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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    I would not say goosebumps are pointless. There are many more reasons why humans experience piloerection aside from the cold. Also, piloerection is more than just your hair standing on end.
    You sometimes get goosebumps also when you're under stress, angry or afraid. It makes your fur stand on end so you appear bigger to an enemy.
    Except humans don't have fur. Oops!

    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    If you were suggesting toenails are useless, then try losing a toenail and not having one for a few months, TRUST me when i say that toenails protect your toes from a LOT of serious pain.
    I'm not talking about being born with toenails then having them ripped off, I'm talking about not being born with toenails at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    I wouldn't say the appendix is useless just yet. We didn't discover the use for tonsils till semi recently.(within the past couple of decades)

    Just because we don't understand something yet, we should not deem it "useless at best". With that mindset we'll never make progress.
    Tell me what the use of an appendix is. Go on.
    There are hundreds of millions of people today who live rich and full lives without an appendix. It should be pretty clear that as far as we can tell, the appendix does nothing except randomly kill you. It's a leftover organ from when we ate grass.


    I notice you've skipped over my other examples. Tail bones, wisdom teeth or ear muscles which most people cant control.

    What's the point of wisdom teeth? People chew food fine up for years only to have to undergo an operation to take them out.

    Never fear, there's a long wikipedia page with hundreds of examples of human evolutionary relics.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vestigiality


    Wisdom teeth were not harmful when we had small brains, but evolution then made us grow massive brains and there was no more space left for wisdom teeth.

    It all points to one thing: Our bodies are the products of evolution. Results of historical circumstance and deep time.



    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    If there was, and by no means am i saying or suggesting that there was, a creator and he was perfect we would have no reason to say that how this entity did things was not "perfect". This entity could create and destroy at will. Any "laws" or "rules" of this universe like gravity, etc. could be invented. If you're agnostic towards a creator you can not possibly place that creator in a box and say how they should have done things. If you're atheist then your opinion on what a creator could/should have done is kinda pointless.
    Yes we do have that right.
    We see human doctors fixing God's mistakes by taking out appendixes and removing wisdom teeth. By the fact that we're removing them, it shows these organs are more harmful than the risks of surgery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    I'm not talking about being born with toenails then having them ripped off, I'm talking about not being born with toenails at all.
    I'm pretty sure your toes would be significantly more sensitive. Fingernails definitely protect my fingers. They're also extremely useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    Tell me what the use of an appendix is. Go on.
    There are hundreds of millions of people today who live rich and full lives without an appendix. It should be pretty clear that as far as we can tell, the appendix does nothing except randomly kill you. It's a leftover organ from when we ate grass.
    Yakman, just because you do not know the use if it does not mean it's useless. People said the EXACT same thing about tonsils. Tonsils are removed in a similar manner and for similar reasons(infected).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    I notice you've skipped over my other examples. Tail bones, wisdom teeth or ear muscles which most people cant control.
    I can control my ear muscles and my nostrils as well :P
    Yakman, again, just because something doesn't make sense to YOU does not make it an auxiliary useless thing... You can only say something is useless if you created it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    What's the point of wisdom teeth? People chew food fine up for years only to have to undergo an operation to take them out.
    Not everyone needs their wisdom teeth removed. I know plenty people whose still have their wisdom teeth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakman View Post
    Yes we do have that right.
    We see human doctors fixing God's mistakes by taking out appendixes and removing wisdom teeth. By the fact that we're removing them, it shows these organs are more harmful than the risks of surgery.
    If by "God" you're referring to God as portrayed in the Bible then saying Doctor's fix God's mistakes is erroneous. The Bible very clearly says that the earth was created perfectly until the fall of man. This is all in Genesis and should be a familiar story even to you. Therefore any imperfections would be the result of man's fall(sinning). If you're referring to another god please explain how you came to this conclusion.

    I'm not saying one thing is right or wrong. All i'm saying you people need to be WAY more open minded and at least think when they say things. ALL these FULLY inclusive statements are sickening... :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by footballjds View Post
    Not everyone needs their wisdom teeth removed. I know plenty people whose still have their wisdom teeth.
    I didn't mean to post, but what is your point? That only some people have it? You're only proving his points.



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