Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 60

Thread: S.M.A.R.T Is against the law?

  1. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    DON'T PM ME ASKING FOR STUFF
    Posts
    2,170
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Quoted
    423 Post(s)

    Default

    Minimizing RuneScape directly would be a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). Users of any customized version of the RuneScape client, are violating real-world rules and could potentially be sued by Jagex.

    We don't minimize RuneScape directly, to protect our users, and because (although we disagree with some aspects of gameplay) we absolutely respect Jagex's rights, according to the DMCA.

    You can minimize your bot without committing an offense, with very little overhead, using Adam's Virtual Machine.

    Does this mean if I open Runescape in Firefox and minimize it I'm going to court ;.;

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    192.168.1.73
    Posts
    2,439
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Quoted
    119 Post(s)

    Default

    Can't Jagex just sue RiD because he's making revenue by selling an alternate way of "playing" the game?

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    5,227
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Quoted
    60 Post(s)

    Default

    ITT: People with no legal experience pretending to be lawyers.

    Stick to what Ben said. Don't know, don't care, it's not worth either sides' time (Jagex/ours) to do anything, so it doesn't matter.

    ;____;

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,421
    Mentioned
    268 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1442 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Can't Jagex just sue RiD because he's making revenue by selling an alternate way of "playing" the game?
    That's a good question. But if anyone were to be targeted by Jagex it would indeed be macros that draw in income. That's one of many factors that makes Simba invisible to Jagex, but this is beside the point.

    Current projects:
    [ AeroGuardians (GotR minigame), Motherlode Miner, Blast furnace ]

    "I won't fall in your gravity. Open your eyes,
    you're the Earth and I'm the sky..."


  5. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tracy/Davis, California
    Posts
    12,631
    Mentioned
    135 Post(s)
    Quoted
    418 Post(s)

    Default

    RiD is probably one of THE LEAST of Jagex's worries of the bots out there.
    It would cost them a lot more in legal fees than the good it would cause to stop RiD.

    The main reasons Nexus was sued was due to it's MASSIVE popularity causing 'irreparable harm' to Jagex, using injection/reflection to tamper/modify the client, and also BS reasons like CopyWrite (as in they used RS images on their site/bots).

    RSBuddy was either threatened to be sued, or Jacmob signed a contract to stop development in order to gain a positionin at Jagex.

    Even now, there are still the bigger, and more popular/harmful bots out there like PowerBot especially, and on a smaller scale EpicBot which use reflection/injection and cause way more harm to Runescape than RiD does.

    So even if RiD were to implement a native minimzation feature and put himself 'at risk' of legal troubles, Jagex wouldn't care to waste the time or money to do anything about it since RiD is used on such a small scale and does no real harm to the game. It would just be another useful feature for the bot to have.
    CopyPasta of a post I made.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    690
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Quoted
    40 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BenLand100 View Post
    How am I supposed to know if it is illegal or not? I neither know nor care what the laws are. If it is "illegal" it's not worth the cost of a court case and the worst case scenario is you get banned. You're taking that risk anyway, so it seems like a moot issue.

    Wizzup? p.s. redname me again when you get a chance
    Wow Jr. member Benland felt weird! :P

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    192.168.1.73
    Posts
    2,439
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Quoted
    119 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flight View Post
    That's a good question. But if anyone were to be targeted by Jagex it would indeed be macros that draw in income. That's one of many factors that makes Simba invisible to Jagex, but this is beside the point.
    Jagex probably just don't see us a detrimental to the game, as we actually respect Jagex. Well, less and less so over the last year.
    Is anything happening with Jagex against Powerbot these days?

    Also, I just spilled Lucozade on my keyboard, which broke it, so I did all of this with the on-screen keyboard. It was a long and arduous process.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Can't Jagex just sue RiD because he's making revenue by selling an alternate way of "playing" the game?
    No.

    There's nothing illegal about his software, and it's legal to distribute. The bot is still using a normal browser, controlling the mouse and keyboard as a human would. It is accessing and playing Runescape through 100% official and legal ways. (Browser -> http://www.runescape,com/game.ws?j=1)

    Yeah, RiD is against the ToS because macroing in general breaks a rule. But breaking that rule is not a violation of a real-life law unless you violate the section of their ToS I quoted, which would be a violation of the DMCA, which RiD does not do. Legally, it'd be the equivalent of Jagex taking someone to court who was banned for abusing a graphical bug.

    Also, considering 95%+ of RiD members are P2P, Jagex would not only have to prove significant financial damages (which there are essentially none, considering most of the users only run one account at a time, and they pay membership, they aren't "goldfarming & RWTing" with the software, and it is no different than if the player were to sit down and do exactly what the bot does), they'd have to prove that the software RiD offers is illegal, which it isn't in any way. They will not and cannot sue someone in his position for something that is not illegal according to real-life laws.

    Also, note that RiD has actually suffered losses over the last few months. It's not that profitable. He does it as a hobby on the side, not as a real job (which he has one), or a way to make a pretty penny.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    192.168.1.73
    Posts
    2,439
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Quoted
    119 Post(s)

    Default

    He charges people for the software, that most definitely is a company with the intention of profiting. I can assure you that there is some legal clause that means he can't sell his software, not that I'm going to go to the effort to find it, but I can almost guarantee that Jagex could sue if they wanted, I just doubt it's financially viable.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    He charges people for the software, that most definitely is a company with the intention of profiting. I can assure you that there is some legal clause that means he can't sell his software, not that I'm going to go to the effort to find it, but I can almost guarantee that Jagex could sue if they wanted, I just doubt it's financially viable.
    It doesn't matter if he profits or not, it's the fact that he is causing no significant (if any) harm from his product, and his product is 100% legal. Just because it breaks a rule in-game doesn't mean that it's illegal or opens him up to being sued. There is nothing illegal about an ease-of-use software, I'm pretty positive he's spoken with a lawyer at some point to make sure.

    I'm currently staying with someone who is educated and trained in the world of legal nonsense. She said that the most Jagex could get him for is Breach of Contract (e.g. Terms of Service), and like I said above, legally it would be the equivalent of bringing a player to court who was banned for abusing a graphical bug in-game (she agreed with that example).

    This would be the exact violation:
    9. Rules
    You must comply with the current version of any rules, guidelines, codes of conduct or instructions specified in any Jagex Product including our game rules, the current version of which is linked to here. Any use of a Jagex Product not in accordance with the game rules exceeds the scope of the license granted by these terms and conditions and is prohibited.
    And it would only be this exact excerpt of their rules: Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

    AND, even then, the ToS say nothing about actually creating any software that breaks that rule (providing it doesn't violate any of the other sections in that ToS, which RiD does not), only using the software.
    Basically this means that it's only a breach of contract to use the software; not to make it. She then explained to me that since this specific breach of contract doesn't break any real-life laws, only in-game rules, the most Jagex would do is ban the account, and that there would be no case for something like this in the court system. She said even if there was a court case, the judge would essentially just say to ban the account, because that's all the violation would call for.

    Years ago Jagex actually threatened legal action against RiD for something as simple as having a copyrighted image on his site (iirc, it was a picture of Bandos). He handled it easily by just removing the images, but the fact of the matter is that Jagex went through all that trouble just for a little image. If Jagex was willing to go through that trouble for some stupid pictures, I don't doubt they'd be willing to try other legal measures if they had them as an option, which they don't.

    RiD's bots work by having all of the decision making code stored on secure servers that he rents (costing him literally hundreds a month), and the bot users run the 'client' which must make authorized connections to the server in order to receive instructions for any kind of movements, clicks, keystrokes, etc. Imagine the server as the Brain, and the 'client' as the arms, hands, mouth, and eyes. The 'eyes' sends what it sees to the brain (server), then the Brain determines the next best action, then sends the commands back to the mouth(for talking)/arms(moving the mouse)/hands(clicking) for it to carry out the commands (mouth could technically count as hands for the keyboard :P). This means that every single hour someone bots with RiD, it costs him server resources, and in essence, money. That's why the bots are not a one-time payment; why he has to have a payment system like he does. When most bots are free (like they are now in 2.0 beta), or people aren't buying credits, it's easy for RiD to lose money.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    3,716
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Quoted
    624 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyt3x View Post
    In Norway it's completely legal to break any TOS, unless doing so means breaking any law, of course.
    same deal in USA, surprisingly
    The only true authority stems from knowledge, not from position.

    You can contact me via matrix protocol: @grats:grats.win or you can email me at the same domain, any user/email address.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    5,762
    Mentioned
    136 Post(s)
    Quoted
    2739 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    It doesn't matter if he profits or not, it's the fact that he is causing no significant (if any) harm from his product, and his product is 100% legal. Just because it breaks a rule in-game doesn't mean that it's illegal or opens him up to being sued. There is nothing illegal about an ease-of-use software, I'm pretty positive he's spoken with a lawyer at some point to make sure.

    I'm currently staying with someone who is educated and trained in the world of legal nonsense. She said that the most Jagex could get him for is Breach of Contract (e.g. Terms of Service), and like I said above, legally it would be the equivalent of bringing a player to court who was banned for abusing a graphical bug in-game (she agreed with that example).

    This would be the exact violation:


    And it would only be this exact excerpt of their rules: Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

    AND, even then, the ToS say nothing about actually creating any software that breaks that rule (providing it doesn't violate any of the other sections in that ToS, which RiD does not), only using the software.
    Basically this means that it's only a breach of contract to use the software; not to make it. She then explained to me that since this specific breach of contract doesn't break any real-life laws, only in-game rules, the most Jagex would do is ban the account, and that there would be no case for something like this in the court system. She said even if there was a court case, the judge would essentially just say to ban the account, because that's all the violation would call for.

    Years ago Jagex actually threatened legal action against RiD for something as simple as having a copyrighted image on his site (iirc, it was a picture of Bandos). He handled it easily by just removing the images, but the fact of the matter is that Jagex went through all that trouble just for a little image. If Jagex was willing to go through that trouble for some stupid pictures, I don't doubt they'd be willing to try other legal measures if they had them as an option, which they don't.

    RiD's bots work by having all of the decision making code stored on secure servers that he rents (costing him literally hundreds a month), and the bot users run the 'client' which must make authorized connections to the server in order to receive instructions for any kind of movements, clicks, keystrokes, etc. Imagine the server as the Brain, and the 'client' as the arms, hands, mouth, and eyes. The 'eyes' sends what it sees to the brain (server), then the Brain determines the next best action, then sends the commands back to the mouth(for talking)/arms(moving the mouse)/hands(clicking) for it to carry out the commands (mouth could technically count as hands for the keyboard :P). This means that every single hour someone bots with RiD, it costs him server resources, and in essence, money. That's why the bots are not a one-time payment; why he has to have a payment system like he does. When most bots are free (like they are now in 2.0 beta), or people aren't buying credits, it's easy for RiD to lose money.
    Your the one the attempted to tell me Breaking a ToS was against the law and that RiD loading a minimizable client would be against the law too

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    4,867
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1663 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    There is nothing illegal about an ease-of-use software
    Then this would be the category SMART falls under. if you're allowed to use a client like Firefox to load Runescape, making one that is minimizable is ease-of-use, correct?

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    192.168.1.73
    Posts
    2,439
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Quoted
    119 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    It doesn't matter if he profits or not, it's the fact that he is causing no significant (if any) harm from his product, and his product is 100% legal. Just because it breaks a rule in-game doesn't mean that it's illegal or opens him up to being sued. There is nothing illegal about an ease-of-use software, I'm pretty positive he's spoken with a lawyer at some point to make sure.

    I'm currently staying with someone who is educated and trained in the world of legal nonsense. She said that the most Jagex could get him for is Breach of Contract (e.g. Terms of Service), and like I said above, legally it would be the equivalent of bringing a player to court who was banned for abusing a graphical bug in-game (she agreed with that example).

    This would be the exact violation:


    And it would only be this exact excerpt of their rules: Software that generates input to our game applets. This includes software that automatically moves the mouse pointer or generates mouse clicks or key presses.

    AND, even then, the ToS say nothing about actually creating any software that breaks that rule (providing it doesn't violate any of the other sections in that ToS, which RiD does not), only using the software.
    Basically this means that it's only a breach of contract to use the software; not to make it. She then explained to me that since this specific breach of contract doesn't break any real-life laws, only in-game rules, the most Jagex would do is ban the account, and that there would be no case for something like this in the court system. She said even if there was a court case, the judge would essentially just say to ban the account, because that's all the violation would call for.

    Years ago Jagex actually threatened legal action against RiD for something as simple as having a copyrighted image on his site (iirc, it was a picture of Bandos). He handled it easily by just removing the images, but the fact of the matter is that Jagex went through all that trouble just for a little image. If Jagex was willing to go through that trouble for some stupid pictures, I don't doubt they'd be willing to try other legal measures if they had them as an option, which they don't.

    RiD's bots work by having all of the decision making code stored on secure servers that he rents (costing him literally hundreds a month), and the bot users run the 'client' which must make authorized connections to the server in order to receive instructions for any kind of movements, clicks, keystrokes, etc. Imagine the server as the Brain, and the 'client' as the arms, hands, mouth, and eyes. The 'eyes' sends what it sees to the brain (server), then the Brain determines the next best action, then sends the commands back to the mouth(for talking)/arms(moving the mouse)/hands(clicking) for it to carry out the commands (mouth could technically count as hands for the keyboard :P). This means that every single hour someone bots with RiD, it costs him server resources, and in essence, money. That's why the bots are not a one-time payment; why he has to have a payment system like he does. When most bots are free (like they are now in 2.0 beta), or people aren't buying credits, it's easy for RiD to lose money.
    Ah right, I honestly didn't realise the level of security he'd undertaken. So there is absolutely no legal issue with using automaton software? I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been some Digital Usage law that forces you to physically be interacting with software

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Legolan, Ireland
    Posts
    542
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    50 Post(s)

    Default

    Sue me... I doubt Jagex has time for a bunch of lowlifes like us... if they wanted to get to the heart they would sue Wizzup and Fakawi- maybe even Benland...
    if I got a court notice for botting Runescape I would applaud the justice system.
    Have you felt the whale lately?
    .__________.
    Whale so hard.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    4,867
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1663 Post(s)

    Default

    If it was illegal to use a Minimizable client, why hasn't Jagex shut down PB?

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    192.168.1.73
    Posts
    2,439
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Quoted
    119 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BMWxi View Post
    If it was illegal to use a Minimizable client, why hasn't Jagex shut down PB?
    They did once, but PB moved hosts to China to avoid jurisdiction or something like that. (it was rsbot.org before)

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    4,867
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1663 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    They did once, but PB moved hosts to China to avoid jurisdiction or something like that. (it was rsbot.org before)
    So it was the mimimizeable client they got shut down for?

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3,042
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Quoted
    14 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BMWxi View Post
    So it was the mimimizeable client they got shut down for?
    No, it was just the domain that was seized. See here for the ruling.
    :-)

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    4,867
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1663 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Method View Post
    No, it was just the domain that was seized. See here for the ruling.
    Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read. On the basis of that ruling, could Jagex also seize projectrs06.com?

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    5,762
    Mentioned
    136 Post(s)
    Quoted
    2739 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BMWxi View Post
    Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read. On the basis of that ruling, could Jagex also seize projectrs06.com?
    probably. The owner of the site has no money to get a decent lawyer..

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Hyrule
    Posts
    8,662
    Mentioned
    179 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1870 Post(s)

    Default

    I spoke to the best lawyer ever and he said we are wasting our time arguing about things we don't know enough about and worrying about something that isn't going to happen

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    219
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Quoted
    140 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BMWxi View Post
    Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read. On the basis of that ruling, could Jagex also seize projectrs06.com?
    Mark Gerhard (CEO) said on camera he will be bringing Paris and Huan (name of the owners of PB/EB) to court and press civil and criminal charges.

    Pretty sure Jagex could charge them with many things related to the DMCA.

    Blizzard once successfully sued a company that made a client that loaded WoW and some of their evidence was the fact that the program loaded WoW into system RAM, and since it technically counts as making a copy, it was copyright infringement.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    4,867
    Mentioned
    74 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1663 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    Mark Gerhard (CEO) said on camera he will be bringing Paris and Huan (name of the owners of PB/EB) to court and press civil and criminal charges.
    Can't wait, although I will definitely not be holding my breath.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    2,351
    Mentioned
    55 Post(s)
    Quoted
    603 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent! View Post
    Mark Gerhard (CEO) said on camera he will be bringing Paris and Huan (name of the owners of PB/EB) to court and press civil and criminal charges.

    Pretty sure Jagex could charge them with many things related to the DMCA.

    Blizzard once successfully sued a company that made a client that loaded WoW and some of their evidence was the fact that the program loaded WoW into system RAM, and since it technically counts as making a copy, it was copyright infringement.
    Runescape is a Java application that can load in a browser and in a wrapper

    Wow is a stand alone Client, so blizzards TOS is completely different, blizzard also have wayy more resources than Jagex do, Will be interesting to see if a court favoured PB over Jagex tho, I have no idea what PB are actually doing to the client lol,

    As far as I know, smart only loads the client like anything else, theres no changing it from the exact way it would normally load into ram, only fooling the java applet into thinking it's running in 800x600 resolution I'm guessing, which is not touching it
    Last edited by DannyRS; 02-01-2013 at 05:10 PM.


    Programming is like trying keep a wall of shifting sand up, you fix one thing but somewhere else starts crumbling

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •